Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

I'll just leave this here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_kGVgQ1LU


If this doesn't show that the tanking balance needs a MAJOR overhaul then I give up.

Where's the problem? Could do it on WAR/DRK too, or with SCH/AST.

some WAR can pull even bigger numbers than some bad DPS so there is no issue

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

some WAR can pull even bigger numbers than some bad DPS so there is no issue

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If a war can pull off higher numbers than a dps who is doing a half a??ed rotation of the same item level.

Yes we have a problem.

I am failing to see the issue... Thordan has VERY easy DPS checks....

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Originally Posted by Dererk

If a war can pull off higher numbers than a dps who is doing a half a??ed rotation of the same item level.

Yes we have a problem.

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What? Why? Please explain this obvious problem

I'm fairly confident you could 7-DRK 1-AST this as well, with a few Balances to make up for no Eye. You could probably 7-PLD 1-SCH it as well if the SCH DPSes hard and 6 PLDs are in full slaying.

I think the only reason you haven't seen that yet is no skilled PLD or DRK can find 6 other PLDs or DRKs on the same server that they trust and that don't suck, cause they're all playing WAR. *shrug* Anyway, it doesn't really prove anything.

So 1 group does it; kudos to them. Now if Pug groups could easily pull this off, then I'd see a rebalance issue. All I see is OP grasping at straws to revamp the Warrior OP'd issue for the 1000th time.

#nochill

If WAR needs anything dialed back a bit its not their DPS, its their infinite TP and Equilibrium's ridiculous (even by Xeno's admission) 60s cooldown. Those are things even a lot of WAR mains can agree on, but being able to DPS down arguably midcore/casual content? Stuff like this just makes non-WAR mains look petty. Stahp.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If WAR needs anything dialed back a bit its not their DPS, its their infinite TP and Equilibrium's ridiculous (even by Xeno's admission) 60s cooldown.

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Here we go....... #itbegins

Was only a matter of time before this happened. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Here we go....... #itbegins

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I'm echoing the godfather of WAR mains, what am I beginning exactly?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If WAR needs anything dialed back a bit its not their DPS, its their infinite TP and Equilibrium's ridiculous (even by Xeno's admission) 60s cooldown. Stuff like this just makes non-WAR mains look petty. Stahp.

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This. 100% this. I would not mind Equilibrium being a 90 second recast or 100 TP. As it stands infinite TP is the only area where WAR is OP.

I out DPS bad DPS players with my paladin, doesn't make it op. War brings a lot of good utility to the table BUT has a high skill cap. A fresh 60 war in ilvl 200+ can't do this, it takes practice to make any class good, the big difference is the reward of a "tuned war". I think a tank rework is definitely on order, I have no disagreement there. I don't want " pal and drk buffs" I want reworks and small buffs. Make more new abilities on pally synergize, change CD timers, add aoe to shield swipe, that kinda stuff. If those changes were made (or similar changes that would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

I am failing to see the issue... Thordan has VERY easy DPS checks....

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The issue is that DPS checks have nothing to do with it
1st video, 7 tanks, one healer : Fight starts at 35:28 on the timer, and ends at 26:13, for a total of 9m15s
2nd video, the usual 2/2/4 setup : Fight starts at 51:18 and ends at 42:07, for a total of 9m11s

So, the 7WAR party is not doing "less but enough DPS", they're actually killing it as fast as the usual setup. Judging by the HP number, I don't think there's a real gap in gear, and we're talking about Elysium in the 2nd video, so I'm pretty sure they're not "half assed" players.

There's definitely a problem.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The issue is that DPS checks have nothing to do with it
1st video, 7 tanks, one healer : Fight starts at 35:28 on the timer, and ends at 26:13, for a total of 9m15s
2nd video, the usual 2/2/4 setup : Fight starts at 51:18 and ends at 42:07, for a total of 9m11s

So, the 7WAR party is not doing "less but enough DPS", they're actually killing it as fast as the usual setup. Judging by the HP number, I don't think there's a real gap in gear, and we're talking about Elysium, so I'm pretty sure they're not "half assed" players.

There's definitely a problem.

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A WILD DECENT ARGUMENT APPEARED!
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What will you do?
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Attack - PKMN
Item - Flee

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's definitely a problem.

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No, there's definitely a big difference between a first clear 2 weeks ago and a clear after 2 weeks of practice. My group clears it faster than the 7 WARs. The fastest group on fflogs was almost an entire minute faster: http://www.fflogs.com/reports/k4fCnV...pe=damage-done

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, there's definitely a big difference between a first clear 2 weeks ago and a clear after 2 weeks of practice. My group clears it faster than the 7 WARs. The fastest group on fflogs was almost an entire minute faster: http://www.fflogs.com/reports/k4fCnV...pe=damage-done

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Do you know anything about the gear of the fastest group ?

And, no, there's not a big difference. Thordan is a mechanic heavy fight, so, once you manage all of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing top DPS. And there's no big mess in the Elysium video to explain why they couldn't kill it faster.
Again, judging by the HP numbers, I doubt that the WARs have really better gear too.

The solo heal is more impressive than the 7 tank setup.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Do you know anything about the gear of the fastest group ?

And, no, there's not a big difference. Thordan is a mechanic heavy fight, so, once you manage all of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing top DPS. And there's no big mess in the Elysium video to explain why they couldn't kill it faster.
Again, judging by the HP numbers, I doubt that the WARs have really better gear too.

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Nothing to do with gear, everything to do with practice. A first clear goes nothing like one two weeks later when you know exactly how the fight goes. A whole minute absolutely is a big difference, especially when a lot of the earlier parts of the fight are waiting for mechanics. You might not think 8m vs 9m is a big difference, but in actual time DPSing properly it's more like 5m vs 6m, meaning the 6m clear took 20% longer.

Long before 7 war-anything was a thing, people were doing 7-sch 1-tank in scob. Lets nerf sch!!! :D

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Originally Posted by Launched

Nothing to do with gear, everything to do with practice. A first clear goes nothing like one two weeks later when you know exactly how the fight goes. A whole minute absolutely is a big difference, especially when a lot of the earlier parts of the fight are waiting for mechanics. You might not think 8m vs 9m is a big difference, but in actual time DPSing properly it's more like 5m vs 6m, meaning the 6m clear took 20% longer.

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So, what about this one ?
26:00 -> 16:46 = 9m14s

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Long before 7 war-anything was a thing, people were doing 7-sch 1-tank in scob. Lets nerf sch!!! :D

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Example ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, what about this one ?
26:00 -> 16:46 = 9m14s

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What about it? Same time as 7 practiced WARs, even though they had 5 people new (and 2 healers, not 1). I fail to see how this makes WAR OP.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Long before 7 war-anything was a thing, people were doing 7-sch 1-tank in scob. Lets nerf sch!!! :D

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Well, really, they should have nerfed Scholar in 2.x. That class was capable doing of ridiculous stuff.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, what about this one ?
26:00 -> 16:46 = 9m14s

Example ?

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Im on my phone but you can search 7-sch 1-war t9 on youtube and see for yourself.

Edit: off phone now, here ya go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlW1kZ-Nwdg

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Originally Posted by Launched

What about it? Same time as 7 practiced WARs, even though they had 5 people new (and 2 healers, not 1). I fail to see how this makes WAR OP.

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Another one, no new player, 9m3s clear.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Another one, no new player, 9m3s clear.

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Clearly messing up DPS uptime after the LB considering they were 4% of the WARs when Thordan disappears. Nothing to do with the job, everything to do with knowing the fight and player skill. You can keep doing this all day, but unless you get a video of the exact same 8 people with the exact same RNG stuff in the fight as a proper party composition, there'll be plenty of explanations that aren't "WAR is so OP".

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If WAR needs anything dialed back a bit its not their DPS, its their infinite TP and Equilibrium's ridiculous (even by Xeno's admission) 60s cooldown. Those are things even a lot of WAR mains can agree on, but being able to DPS down arguably midcore/casual content? Stuff like this just makes non-WAR mains look petty. Stahp.

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WAR is the standard DRK & PLD should live up to. All of its abilities feel very good and work very well together.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Clearly messing up DPS uptime after the LB considering they were 4% of the WARs when Thordan disappears. Nothing to do with the job, everything to do with knowing the fight and player skill. You can keep doing this all day, but unless you get a video of the exact same 8 people with the exact same RNG stuff in the fight as a proper party composition, there'll be plenty of explanations that aren't "WAR is so OP".

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Yes, and the first explanation is...denial.
Despite all evidence, on top of the clear fact that everybody only wants WAR, you're still convinced that your class is just "ok".
It's also not surprising that everyone who dismiss this kind of evidence is lvl60 WAR.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlW1kZ-Nwdg

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Kill time : 11m23s
Kill time : 10m40s
It's 40 seconds more, not 10.
Oh, and by the way, yes, SCH's DPS is absurdly high for a healer.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

WAR is the standard DRK & PLD should live up to. All of its abilities feel very good and work very well together.

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I didn't say it, Xeno did. :P The rhetoric of your statement is annoyingly pervasive, and it almost carries an implication with it that DRK and PLD mains are less skilled players than WAR mains, and it further exacerbates that attitude that "PLD just needs to do WAR deeps".

Also WAR/PLD mains, stop trying to put/pull (respectively) DRK down to PLD's level in the spectrum of tank balance in relation to WAR. I'm so sick of my job being the "middle child" in between the cockfighting of the two original tanks, and I can't be the only DRK main that is annoyed by this. DRK is as well designed and functional as 90% of the other jobs in the game... DRG, MNK, WHM, etc all of which have benefits and flaws. A job like WAR with almost no flaws exceeding the standard through things like infinite TP does not render jobs meeting the standard as poor.

Maybe I missed it, but no one seems to bring up the fact they sacrificed a healer, to make up the dmg missing.

Swap a single WAR with a DRG, and you'll see a noticeably quicker run. (LB, plus all those WARs, I doubt keeping the DRG topped off will too much for that WHM, if it's just ONE DPS.)

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Also WAR/PLD mains, stop trying to put/pull (respectively) DRK down to PLD's level in the spectrum of tank balance in relation to WAR. I'm so sick of my job being the "middle child" in between the cockfighting of the two original tanks, and I can't be the only DRK main that is annoyed by this.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/4zr32XFiZ1Apq/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I didn't say it, Xeno did. :P The rhetoric of your statement is annoyingly pervasive, and it almost carries an implication with it that DRK and PLD mains are less skilled players than WAR mains, and it further exacerbates that attitude that "PLD just needs to do WAR deeps".

Also WAR/PLD mains, stop trying to put/pull (respectively) DRK down to PLD's level in the spectrum of tank balance in relation to WAR. I'm so sick of my job being the "middle child" in between the cockfighting of the two original tanks, and I can't be the only DRK main that is annoyed by this. DRK is as well designed and functional as 90% of the other jobs in the game... DRG, MNK, WHM, etc all of which have benefits and flaws. A job like WAR with almost no flaws exceeding the standard through things like infinite TP does not render jobs meeting the standard as poor.

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It has nothing to do with skill, and is entirely how the classes are designed and how well WARs abilities all work together and compliment each other. The only exception being Holmgang, where I think they tried to stuff too much into one ability

DRK has a lot of stuff, and it works, but I just don't think it all fits together quite as nicely as the WAR kit does. And then there's PLD which is a whole other story.

Main tanking as WAR requires skill. Off tanking, does not.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

Main tanking as WAR requires skill. Off tanking, does not.

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Not even a WAR main and my reaction this is a very tall glass of "WAT".

Frankly OTing as any tank is easier than MTing in a lot of ways. No skill though? You may wanna rethink this post bud.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Not even a WAR main and my reaction this is a very tall glass of "WAT".

Frankly OTing as any tank is easier than MTing in a lot of ways. No skill though? You may wanna rethink this post bud.

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If building 5 stacks and pressing Fell Cleave to out-dps your Bard is hard then I don't know what you're on.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

Main tanking as WAR requires skill. Off tanking, does not.

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this made me chuckle

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

If building 5 stacks and pressing Fell Cleave to out-dps your Bard is hard then I don't know what you're on.

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It's really not that simple. If pressing Fell cleave out does a bard then they, quite frankly, suck at their job.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

If building 5 stacks and pressing Fell Cleave to out-dps your Bard is hard then I don't know what you're on.

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I think you are running with low DPSing bards. :)