solo tanking in thordan EX possible ?

hi, so here is the question ?

i've seen a party today, for thordan EX
it was 1 tank 1 heal and 6 dps,

so here is my question
is it even doable like this ? (so far i have exp up to the meteor phase so cant tell what after)
but if 1 tank, tank both adds just after dive, with 6 dps, even with the shared buff do you think its doable ?

I doubt it. The mechanic right after that requires the group to stack up in front of a marked healer with the off tank in front of them. The OT (WAR) would have to pop Vegeance, Thrill of Battle, and Inner Beast before taking a huge spear hit from one of the Knights. If anyone dies to this mechanic it's an automatic wipe.

I'm not sure if the MT were to soak this mechanic instead of it would be survivable or not. Seems pretty risky if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by ReddAxel

Seems pretty risky if you ask me.

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risky i think so too, but not 100 % impossible right ?

Maybe. We had one try it once in a learning party where nobody watched a video first. The tank was taking like 10k damage per gcd during oaths, so it would basically have to be a full vit paladin with an AST healing and throwing out nothing but boles and spears.

i think tomorow i will give it a go with my static, might be interesting :D

You need to tank two add and these two adds need to be separate with each other. I don't think dps can keep enmity while solo healing a fight, then dps can't take an add I think. I don't think the healer will have time to top up the tank without hallowed ground or something similar during the huge spear hit since he is stun.

However, solo healing is not really hard in this fight.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

You need to tank two add and these two adds need to be separate with each other. I guess it's not possible.

However, solo healing is not really hard in this fight.

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tanking the 2 adds is not a problem (did it earlier when OT died miserably ...) and was surprised too see that i could tank them for quite long time befor dying (using TANK, stuff and not a mix of tank and dps is surprisingly good),
but with 6 dps i "think" it "might" be possible to overcome the resist buff and still kill them pretty quickly (could use the LB if really become too hard for this part)

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Originally Posted by anguel

tanking the 2 adds is not a problem (did it earlier when OT died miserably ...) and was surprised too see that i could tank them for quite long time befor dying (using TANK, stuff and not a mix of tank and dps is surprisingly good),
but with 6 dps i "think" it "might" be possible to overcome the resist buff and still kill them pretty quickly (could use the LB if really become too hard for this part)

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lol have you seen how little damage they take when tethered?

actually havent paid much attention there so :(

is it that bad ?

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Originally Posted by anguel

tanking the 2 adds is not a problem (did it earlier when OT died miserably ...) and was surprised too see that i could tank them for quite long time befor dying (using TANK, stuff and not a mix of tank and dps is surprisingly good),
but with 6 dps i "think" it "might" be possible to overcome the resist buff and still kill them pretty quickly (could use the LB if really become too hard for this part)

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I fixed my post and when thethered adds deal x2 damage and take almost no damage. (when thethered, both add will have the sword+ shield buff)
I don't think it's possible if you don't separate both adds. And I don't think you can survive when thethered since hallowed ground/holmgang etc don't seem to work if adds aren't separated during their LB attacks.

I don't play with VIT tanks, only with STR tanks and not even with a paladin. That's why maybe I'm wrong and a tank can still survive. However, I can see a drg tank an add and survive to the lb with stoneskin + adlo crit + virus², maybe. But problem is enmity. A ninja can be usefull, I guess. I don't have the time to test it since I'm done with thordan EX and back to savage, but it can be a nice challenge.

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Originally Posted by anguel

actually havent paid much attention there so :(

is it that bad ?

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From what I understand they share shield+sword oaths when near. It's pretty bad; our tank has said he might as well stand there when his is in shield oath.

It would likely be impossible, unless a DRG could reliably tank one of the adds and also take the T10 mechanic without dying.

In the Sword/Shield Oath phase, having the adds tether and be close up really makes it nigh impossible to kill them (especially if you have them tethered up from the start). You could technically somehow work around this with NINs, but seeing as DPS don't have Provoke, it would be pretty hard to machinate, unless you end up p1 with the DRG MTing, without it dying in the process. In which case, the actual tank could Provoke one of the adds. The next issue is surviving the Holy Bladedance. If RNGesus is on your side and the DRG's add starts in Shield Oath, it could probably be mitigatable and spam healable through. You would then need to be able to nuke one of the adds and carry on normally.

The next issue would be having the DRG survive the T10 mechanic. Might be doable if they use some VIT accs and also have the Adloquium crit of the century, with Stoneskin up as well. (The MT wouldn't be able to eat this while tanking Thordan, because the T10 mechanic gives you a phys vuln up thingy).

Anyone feel like doing this? B)

I think it's impossible for phase at 2 adds. Those adds need to separated, otherwise you get 2x damage. Also for the stance of those adds there's one that do Sword Oath that gives big damage.

ok i see, well thanks for your answear guys

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

It would likely be impossible, unless a DRG could reliably tank one of the adds and also take the T10 mechanic without dying.

In the Sword/Shield Oath phase, having the adds tether and be close up really makes it nigh impossible to kill them (especially if you have them tethered up from the start). You could technically somehow work around this with NINs, but seeing as DPS don't have Provoke, it would be pretty hard to machinate, unless you end up p1 with the DRG MTing, without it dying in the process. In which case, the actual tank could Provoke one of the adds. The next issue is surviving the Holy Bladedance. If RNGesus is on your side and the DRG's add starts in Shield Oath, it could probably be mitigatable and spam healable through. You would then need to be able to nuke one of the adds and carry on normally.

The next issue would be having the DRG survive the T10 mechanic. Might be doable if they use some VIT accs and also have the Adloquium crit of the century, with Stoneskin up as well. (The MT wouldn't be able to eat this while tanking Thordan, because the T10 mechanic gives you a phys vuln up thingy).

Anyone feel like doing this? B)

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No amount of shields will save a dps from even the shield oath LB. A tank can't survive without heavy mitigation, much less anyone with less HP and much less defense. Same goes for the wild charge mechanic.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

No amount of shields will save a dps from even the shield oath LB. A tank can't survive without heavy mitigation, much less anyone with less HP and much less defense. Same goes for the wild charge mechanic.

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Did you try? :p I sure as hell didn't, but I was entertaining the OP's idea on a theory level! A Foresighted DRG is practically in godmode! (Dat Foresight!)

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Originally Posted by anguel

actually havent paid much attention there so :(

is it that bad ?

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Yes. They both have the Vulnerability Down buff when they're tethered. Not to mention there's a point where they cast Holiest of Holy > Holy Bladedance > Holiest of Holy. If you even lived that long, that right there would wipe the raid while they're tethered.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

Did you try? :p I sure as hell didn't, but I was entertaining the OP's idea on a theory level! A Foresighted DRG is practically in godmode! (Dat Foresight!)

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As a PLD with Bulwark and Shield Oath up, I still take around 3/4 of my HP bar (I have close to 19k HP) from the knight in Shield Oath. A DRG has significantly lower physical defense values and less HP, so I don't think there's much of a chance they'd survive.

You gotta remember, having Bulwark up doesn't necessarily mean it's proccing for each hit. I know it hits hard, but I am tanking through that add in Deliverance and Holmganging there anyway (which only puts my mitigation above a DRG's due to my phys defense values on the gear), and I also OT that encounter in full slaying, with pretty much DRG-tier HP. I would be pretty interested to see if a DRG could live through that via accessory HP bloat (20k HP or so), while also being catered to in the form of Virus + Disable on their add (which stack). You can also obviously pre-shield the hit, then pre-cast further heals to land between the hits, etc. I would be able to shed some more light on how much a completely unmitigated (on tank phys def) Holy Bladedance does per hit, but alas I haven't been vidding the fight, and haven't thought of paying that much attention to the individual flying text so far, as I am purposefully 1HPing there anyway.

Anyway - is what the OP proposed worth it? Nope, don't think so, might just as well have two tanks and tank aggressively anyway. But the OP asked a question, and I was just pondering it for fun. :p

Just the fact that you need to voke the one guy says that this is basically impossible (unless you have like 5 BLM/BRD/MCH popping Quelling and keeping aggro down, and the tank just barely holding out against the melee they bring. Or 4 ranged with quelling and some really clever use of Shadewalker on a DRG/MNK). Would also require that the DPS get Sword Oath first and then the mob burned before it can cast its LB.

With 6 good DPS + a WAR + an AST + an LB, you might be able to kill a Knight before they activate their oath. So, you'd avoid the tether mechanic and you'd also avoid their holy blade dance.

The bigger issue is the WC mechanic in p5. While DRGs have like ~16000 HP in i210, I still doubt they'd be able to take the spear hit and live. If anyone dies, it's an auto wipe. I Vengeance and Thrill with ~17000 HP in Deliverance and still end up with like 2k HP left. Maybe a MNK with Fists of Earth, Divine Veil shield, Stoneskin, RR Bole, Apocatastasis (if it's magical... not sure)? That might... work?

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Originally Posted by anguel

actually havent paid much attention there so :(

is it that bad ?

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I believe it's 90% damage reduction. My attacks hit for double digits when the one I'm tanking is in Shield Oath.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

With 6 good DPS + a WAR + an AST + an LB, you might be able to kill a Knight before they activate their oath. So, you'd avoid the tether mechanic and you'd also avoid their holy blade dance.

The bigger issue is the WC mechanic in p5. While DRGs have like ~16000 HP in i210, I still doubt they'd be able to take the spear hit and live. If anyone dies, it's an auto wipe. I Vengeance and Thrill with ~17000 HP in Deliverance and still end up with like 2k HP left. Maybe a MNK with Fists of Earth, Divine Veil shield, Stoneskin, RR Bole, Apocatastasis (if it's magical... not sure)? That might... work?

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Forgot about that part (don't know how...I Thrill + Vengeance that...). Guessing MT stands in front and there's a really really well timed Benediction waiting for them (or they save their big CD for it...or both for WAR and DRK trying to solo this)

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

Did you try? :p I sure as hell didn't, but I was entertaining the OP's idea on a theory level! A Foresighted DRG is practically in godmode! (Dat Foresight!)

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Considering how often I will end up tanking something on my bard I have seen the LB damages.... when both of them fully buffed hit me it's 12x~7.5k. So I assume it's 6x7.5k if it's just one buffed. I don't know how much the buff is for but I'll assume unbuffed would be hitting ~4-5k per hit. Still somewhere in the range of 20-30k.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

I believe it's 90% damage reduction. My attacks hit for double digits when the one I'm tanking is in Shield Oath.

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My attacks go down to the range of ~100-150 per hit. Refreshing dots just before they swap though still counts for full potency through the ticks.

I think the biggest problem would be the Shield / Sword oath knights.

If you could separate them long enough to kill one knight... possibly by having the DPS who is second on the aggro list burst one down to get aggro then move apart. A Ninjas Shadewalker aggro buff might help achieve this?

Or, you could use a lancer with cross class provoke! But, a Warrior could probably out DPS a lancer...

Otherwise, simply kill one before they tether... I feel like this strategy wouldn't be possible with current gear levels though...

Its probably not worth the trouble, in any case!

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Considering how often I will end up tanking something on my bard I have seen the LB damages.... when both of them fully buffed hit me it's 12x~7.5k. So I assume it's 6x7.5k if it's just one buffed. I don't know how much the buff is for but I'll assume unbuffed would be hitting ~4-5k per hit. Still somewhere in the range of 20-30k.

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12k? Hmmm I don't think we speak about the same duty. It should one shoot you. I guess it wasn't the LB. Without mitigation it's around 22k damage what are you speaking about?

I think it's doable but i don't see the point, if you manage to fail the dps check with double Warrior you're a bit special.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

I would be pretty interested to see if a DRG could live through that via accessory HP bloat (20k HP or so), while also being catered to in the form of Virus + Disable on their add (which stack).

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The day when DRGs wear vit and tanks wear str.. Oh SE what have you done :P

With 6 extremely good DPS saving all their buffs and an LB you might be able to brute force your way through the Knights, even through tether+shield. Tank will obviously need to Burn an invincible right away, and then nearly every single buff for the next double blade-dance. There is no need for trying to have a DPS tank a knight here.

The T10 Mechanic phase poses a problem tho. The MT can't take the hit because it gives a huge -Physical resistance making every Heel/Cleave a one-hit move and it lasts quite a while; on top of the infirmary debuff. So there are maybe 2 ways of bypassing it: Having a DPS tank the hit or Sac it and survive?

To have a DPS survive you'll need your solo healer to be a SCH and have a BLM and a DRG around. The choice of DPS should ideally be a MNK with Fists of Earth. The BLM will Apocatastasis the MNK. The SCH needs to spend all his time before fishing for an Adlo crit on the MNK, so having a DRG pop Critany here (Which is a good idea anyways) should be ideal. Soil should be down as well. Possibly use Eos instead of Selene for the additional M.Def bonus. This should be enough for the MNK to survive. If this is still not enough, you could do a Tank LB and ensure it works. If this is STILL not enough, have the MT step in (But not take the first hit) to split even more damage. Yes the infirmary debuff makes you take like 0 healing, but with enough buffs you can survive until it wears off, even through Heel.

As for surviving a failed spear, I don't know if its possible. Is it a 100% wipe or just a huge amount of damage? If it isn't completely outrageous maybe a Tank LB3 plus Soil plus deployment Tactics Adlo could maybe make it survivable? Seems fairly redundant to try surviving this with tank LB if you could use use it to not die to the spear in the first place tho, so this is not a good idea even if possible. Either way, if it's possible to survive it you'll need a SMN to raise your healer afterwards.