FFXIV dungeons are a little bit too linear?

They don't feel like dungeons. They are curved lines with only 1 way to get through them without split paths or other means to reach the exit. It's impossible to get lost there like in a real dungeon. You just walk from start to exit breaking artificial 'barriers' and getting 'keys' by killing mobs the only purpose of which is to make a short linear dungeon a bit longer.

http://i.imgur.com/wyeMbVZ.png

http://i.imgur.com/IWjQsT9.png

http://i.imgur.com/rzGMbUS.png

And when you meet real dungeons in other games, you are shocked by FFXIV simplicity.

http://i.imgur.com/hYlwLe5.png

http://i.imgur.com/grjwk1o.png

Ive been thinking this for ages its just a straight line with no variation. Now that we only get 2 dungeons per patch they are just so boring after months of grinding the same ones. I kind of expected more if they were only doing 2 dungeons. I think the same for 24 man raid its just a line. Wheres the variation and different paths the parties need to go along to complete the final objective.

My thing when it comes to 24man is kinda like how they split the group for some of the mini bosses, have us have 3 different paths that force parties to actually split up at least and then perhaps converge together later on. However while I would like more complex dungeons, I'd imagine that when compared to what we have had a lot of people would probably just got irritated or people will simplify it down to the base "Go here, do this, dont go that way its not worth it!"

Unless the developers can somehow force it to randomize.

Maybe make an 8 man dungeon that separates into two and have them both clear different objectives?

Otherwise, that dungeon design will only lead to people finding out the least effort path, nullifying the reason for "dead ends" and other ways to get to the finish line.

In mazes (dungeons), the first and foremost objective is to get to the finish line. Other optional routes to other destinations are considered just that, Optional. So either make those "dead ends" reward something unique or the extra rooms and routes would be just for nothing.

Yeah, I would definitely appreciate some real dungeons

We need dungeons again similar to old Toto-Rak

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...ialDevices.jpg
Many paths, many endbosses, but only 1 endboss can be reached depending of the path the party unlock.

Gather first all blue photocells to unlock the blue gate. Then gather all green photocells to unlock the green gate or the door of the first endboss. Unlocking an endboss door use all photocells and the other gates of the dungeon can't be unlocked anymore.

There's no point in making dungeons labyrinthine because people will always just find the shortest and fastest route to the end. Even if you were to compare MMORPG dungeons to single player RPG dungeons, you have to keep in mind that in singe player RPGs the dungeons are the meat of the gameplay, whereas in MMORPGs they are just one piece of the bigger platter of content. MMORPGs also tend to focus more on the boss challenges, not exploration, since exploration is kind of useless in a game where you are meant to do the same place multiple times.

Damn, it really shows when you post the actual maps like that. Sadly, it's just not normal dungeons, but raid maps as well. Everything is painfully linear and formulaic. I wish they would experiment more. The Diadem is a slight step in the right direction. I realise that it has lots of issues, but at least it's something else than we've been getting for these last two years.

Sadly, we will never get such a thing. If people managed to turn the diadem into a dino grind fest, then they'll find a similar way to formulate something that is non linear.

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Originally Posted by Veerne

There's no point in making dungeons labyrinthine because people will always just find the shortest and fastest route to the end. Even if you were to compare MMORPG dungeons to single player RPG dungeons, you have to keep in mind that in singe player RPGs the dungeons are the meat of the gameplay, whereas in MMORPGs they are just one piece of the bigger platter of content. MMORPGs also tend to focus more on the boss challenges, not exploration, since exploration is kind of useless in a game where you are meant to do the same place multiple times.

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There is a point and it is called immersion, which is quite important in a game which claims to be a RPG (and not a gear farming glamour simulator).

Anyone else remember Blackfathom Depths from back in WoW? I remember getting lost there with my party more than a few times, one of my most memorable experiences in MMOs. I'd kill for a dungeon similar to that in FFXIV, but alas all we'll get is "We don't have enough staff to do that without sacrificing another dungeon, the Diadem too, oh, and the MSQ will be even shorter than 3.1", or whatever.

Unfortunately all that will happen is that people will:

A) Complain it takes too long or is complex
B) Find the quickest way & ignore rest
C) Assassinate the characters of those who don't want to do B).

They did do a multi route option in Coil I believe and it ended up with people only doing the minimum required to get through.

Can you blame the developers for not wanting to spend more time and money creating exciting routes like the O'Ghomoro Mines only for most of it to remain completely ignored once the initial mapping achievement is gained?

Would love something other than what's on offer right now, even if it was just once every other patch. Who cares if people will optimize the route, it'll beat doing yet another linear "dungeon" the first few times.

At the same time, make something that isn't insultingly easy, doesn't have to be crazy, just something a bit tougher.

And please! Stop with the mob clear required door opener stuff on ever damn corridor, one or two is fine to block progression for speed runs... but dungeons ever since this design choice started getting more heavily enforced have been kind of dull; One of the reasons I used to enjoy (used to, keyword) tanking a dungeon was doing big pulls and managing CD's properly to survive, same as a healer... it had an element of actual skill that benefited a run, as a bad healer or tank wouldn't pull them off so well.

Not saying make them pure big pull speed run havens, just please, less emphasis on these current designs and layout choices.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Unfortunately all that will happen is that people will:

A) Complain it takes too long or is complex
B) Find the quickest way & ignore rest
C) Assassinate the characters of those who don't want to do B).

They did do a multi route option in Coil I believe and it ended up with people only doing the minimum required to get through.

Can you blame the developers for not wanting to spend more time and money creating exciting routes like the O'Ghomoro Mines only for most of it to remain completely ignored once the initial mapping achievement is gained?

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U'Ghamaro Mines is everything but exciting..

If they were to do a multi route option, they would need to provide different incentives to go each path so people wouldn't always choose the path of least resistance. Unfortunately, people prefer the hallway design of dungeons. There hasn't been a single structurally interesting dungeon to me in ages outside of Aetherochemical.

I've given up on anything that requires some complexity in this game to be done right or at all.

If they made it rewarding people would. The harder routes give more rewards. Or th he could make them all the same length and time just slightly different. Either option would work. They just need to be creative.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I remember getting lost there with my party more than a few times

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And that's the reason it doesn't happen. Granted, I loved that dungeon in its original form, but mostly due to running through it by myself when I was a much higher level. If you ran it with people when it first came out, you'd either be ignoring most of the hallways, rooms, and mobs, or you would be hopelessly lost. We're playing a game where most dps can't even find their limit break button.

Now maybe they could make a zone or something similar to these ideas. That way you could explore to your heart's content, but you wouldn't be shackled to 3 or 7 other people who would probably not be interested in the same things that you are. Personally I'm a bit upset that diadem pretty much requires a decent sized group even to fight rank 1 mobs, and you need other people just to enter the zone. Personal and small group exploration is thrown under the bus of massive groups spamming the easiest grind.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

They did do a multi route option in Coil I believe and it ended up with people only doing the minimum required to get through.

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Not to mention the sacrifice pulls of Turn 1. I don't think I've ever been in a group that killed the mobs properly. Groups only kill trash if there is a locked door preventing them from proceeding. I honestly don't think you can blame SE on this one. They understand their player basis on the matter, and a small amount of people that like to soak in the sights isn't going to make them change their design philosophy on dungeons.

Yeah, the dungeons layouts are disappointingly linear. Almost as linear as the entirety of Final Fantasy XIII. I think the only dungeon that's slightly less linear than the rest is Toto Rak. If I remember right, you have a choice of which path you can go down, even though they all lead to the same destination and lead to the same boss in the end. I think even 1.0 had non-linear dungeons with Cutter's, Aurum Vale and Toto Rak.

I wouldn't mind midcore content designed to add exploration to dungeons. The bosses are fun albeit easy, but the trash and dungeon layout are always the same.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

There is a point and it is called immersion, which is quite important in a game which claims to be a RPG (and not a gear farming glamour simulator).

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RPG=Role Playing Game - A game whereas you role-play within the story. I think this game nailed that. WARRIORS OF LIGHT UNITE!

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

RPG=Role Playing Game - A game whereas you role-play within the story. I think this game nailed that. WARRIORS OF LIGHT UNITE!

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Yeah right, I think I now get why the dungeons are linear.

I think the best way to motivate people into doing different paths would be Relic weapons. Say you go down one path and the trash drops items that you need to collect, but only that path. Then you need to run again going a different path to kill a boss to collect another item etc.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

I think the best way to motivate people into doing different paths would be Relic weapons. Say you go down one path and the trash drops items that you need to collect, but only that path. Then you need to run again going a different path to kill a boss to collect another item etc.

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A novelty that will wear out its welcome real fast and making content that only appeals to the people that want/have to do it.

Those kind of dungeons are very cool, but only make sense in a no-instanced game.

In theme parks like FF XIV dungeons are something to burn and finish fast, because... it's the most effective thing to do.


To make work those dungeons, people would need reasons to go and stay. Rare monster that drops interesting things, and so on.
In this game you can't make it, because no drop can be really that interesting, they always loose most of his value in a few months.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

I think the best way to motivate people into doing different paths would be Relic weapons. Say you go down one path and the trash drops items that you need to collect, but only that path. Then you need to run again going a different path to kill a boss to collect another item etc.

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Might just end up like Diadem where 2 people want to do this and the others want to do this and people start wanting to kick people.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Unfortunately all that will happen is that people will:

A) Complain it takes too long or is complex
B) Find the quickest way & ignore rest
C) Assassinate the characters of those who don't want to do B).

They did do a multi route option in Coil I believe and it ended up with people only doing the minimum required to get through.

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Yeah, T2 had a multi route option where you could choose what buffs/debuffs to put on the boss by what path you picked. What ended up happening was people would choose a path seemingly at random, kill the minimum amount of spheres to get to the boss (it's 3 if memory serves), then wait outside the boss door until enrage because nobody wanted to deal with Allagan Rot. xD

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Not to mention the sacrifice pulls of Turn 1. I don't think I've ever been in a group that killed the mobs properly. Groups only kill trash if there is a locked door preventing them from proceeding. I honestly don't think you can blame SE on this one. They understand their player basis on the matter, and a small amount of people that like to soak in the sights isn't going to make them change their design philosophy on dungeons.

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My friends and I talked about going in there to spiritbond at one point but ultimately ended up never doing it.

It's faster to just stack the mobs on the golem and murder them now if you go in unsynced.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

They don't feel like dungeons. They are curved lines with only 1 way to get through them without split paths or other means to reach the exit. It's impossible to get lost there like in a real dungeon. You just walk from start to exit breaking artificial 'barriers' and getting 'keys' by killing mobs the only purpose of which is to make a short linear dungeon a bit longer.

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Nope, no sugar coating. The dungeons, are beautiful pieces of Opo droppings. It may look majestic in nature but its still s#%$. I LOVED the Arboretum and how amazing it looked.....but most of the crap I wanted to explore was blocked by a damn wall! "People will find it too hard", "Players are just going to take the best route to get to where they need to go", "There's nothing wrong with it. I don't like chan---"

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...07/941/f92.gif

This is why content gets boring so damn quickly. People want things super simplified for them and easy to grind because they want their endgame content immediately instead of actually having a fun challenging experience in normal dungeons AND DON'T YOU DARE say its the casual player's fault for making the dungeons so linear! Most of the people who complain about it being to hard to accomplish for average players are not average themselves and are endgame tier and just shows how lazy our playerbase has become. "Give us moar endgame content" What we NEED is more midgame content that will keep us busy and build up our skills for endgame content. Its a damn shame its hard to enjoy these new dungeons because SE is too afraid to deviate from this Final Hallway style because lazy players influence them so much they can't see what they should be doing.

A perfect example of this is the exploratory missions. people complaining about everyone just doing the same thing in DIno island and other people gathering and the players are ripping eachother apart about it, why, because now their getting their faces dipped in the shitty mentality they developed over the years. In fact I'd like exploratory missions to stay this way, it'd be testament for the amount of players who want everything to be a grind. That is all -_-

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Originally Posted by Elvin

To make work those dungeons, people would need reasons to go and stay. Rare monster that drops interesting things, and so on.
In this game you can't make it, because no drop can be really that interesting, they always loose most of his value in a few months.

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I wish we had that. So much I cannot even begin to tell you. Would make redoing old content so much more fun and relevant and would give options - speed run for the eso reward - full complete for RNG possibilities. I agree with you though that the game design and vertical progression really seems to be at odds with an idea like that.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

A perfect example of this is the exploratory missions. people complaining about everyone just doing the same thing in DIno island and other people gathering and the players are ripping eachother apart about it, why, because now their getting their faces dipped in the shitty mentality they developed over the years. In fact I'd like exploratory missions to stay this way, it'd be testament for the amount of players who want everything to be a grind. That is all -_-

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Honestly, I can't stand to go into the Diadem to grind more than a few times a week. The most fun I've ever had in there was when we went in as an all-gatherer party and four of us decided to band together and explore a cave down on the southwest island. It turned out to be this crazy death cave full of crabs and snakes, but we found a secret fishing hole back in there. :3

It doesn't even have to be "harder" or "more complex" it could be as simple as "Take x way into the basement for a mini boss or pass it via the stairs and fight trash instead".
Yes, that is directly from WoW's Shadowfang Keep, and you know what? My groups took both ways, to this day (♥ WoW).

I ike this game... but aside from looking pretty, the dungeons have never interested me. Boring, slogging themepark.
Dare I say even Tera has better dungeon design.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Honestly, I can't stand to go into the Diadem to grind more than a few times a week. The most fun I've ever had in there was when we went in as an all-gatherer party and four of us decided to band together and explore a cave down on the southwest island. It turned out to be this crazy death cave full of crabs and snakes, but we found a secret fishing hole back in there. :3

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I loved day one before Dino Island became a thing. Exploring those caves, communicating with the other parties, taking down 4/5/star ranks... it was a lot of fun. Then everyone flocked to Jurassic Park (except no Chris Pratt on motorcycles) where Diadem fully turned into a zerg fest like hunts. No one even bothers exploring the caves anymore.

I guess people will always take the path of least resistance.

Casual players will complain game is too hard and rage quit. Also PS3 limitations.

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Originally Posted by Veerne

There's no point in making dungeons labyrinthine because people will always just find the shortest and fastest route to the end. Even if you were to compare MMORPG dungeons to single player RPG dungeons, you have to keep in mind that in singe player RPGs the dungeons are the meat of the gameplay, whereas in MMORPGs they are just one piece of the bigger platter of content. MMORPGs also tend to focus more on the boss challenges, not exploration, since exploration is kind of useless in a game where you are meant to do the same place multiple times.

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+1 to this. This man speaks the truth.

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Originally Posted by Riardon

Casual players will complain game is too hard and rage quit. Also PS3 limitations.

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I think you're a little backwards here. The casuals are the ones who would like this the most. They wouldn't mind stopping to smell the flowers and appreciate possibly labyrinthine design. It's the "hardcore" crowd that would hate it and demand people take the fastest route.

You can say you want immersion of whatever, but let's be real. They would need to give people compelling reasons to take alternate routes literally each and every run because it would just devolve into "how fast can we get through this?" over the course of a week at the most. Sure, that doesn't apply to every player, but sadly I'd wager it's applies to enough players to warrant sticking to the status quo.

It's just a bunch of FF13s

I'd love to be able to explore Saint Mocianne's Arboretum.... That place looks like it would be really cool to explore. The first time I did it I was thinking how cool if dungeons weren't just one straight path and were more like the open world dungeons in FFXI.

Maybe in the future they can turn dungeons into something more closer related to how Diadem is in terms of how things spawn and respawn with multiple parties in one dungeon at a time, just bigger dungeons and random objectives to complete with different bosses to kill as objectives as well and bosses giving the tomestone reward.

I have been thinking this for a while, the straight line effect.

Point A to point B that's it, was thinking something like the Sea area in FFXI something like that would be cool to have, that place was big and puzzles and bosses to fight.

Dungeons are linear because players will find the shortest route and play it as though it was linear. Don't ask SE to waste resources making branches that people will only see on the first day until they discover the fastest path.

Also, FFXIV focuses so heavily on grind that players will become quite angry with each other if someone wants to explore one of the slower paths.

It would be exactly the same debate as watching cutscenes but even worse because people who want to see slower paths wouldn't even bring a new player bonus! They would just want to do something different and have fun, which is totally incomprehensible to many players who just want to grind rewards.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Don't ask SE to waste resources making branches that people will only see on the first day until they discover the fastest path.

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Thing is if they just removed their "Invisible walls", despite how much SE loves them, dungeons (and the world) would become so much more open instantly. No resource cost there.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Don't ask SE to waste resources making branches that people will only see on the first day until they discover the fastest path..

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While this is true, I have to ask: When did MMOs go from being time sinks to instant gratification speedrun zerg fests? Here's a rough map from a dungeon in Everquest:

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/Solusekseye.jpg

Compare this to what we get in FFXIV:

http://guide-source.com/files/Sastasha-Coffer-Map.jpg