So does any pally use abilities like Divine Veil, Clemency, sheltron or Royal Authority? I have the impression that a lot of the new pally abilities are "meh"
I like divine veil but im not sure how useful it is. Nor do i know if any of these spells are routine in the average pally's rotation know and days
PLD abilities
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11-16-2015, 04:57 PMPogueXPLD abilities
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11-16-2015, 05:19 PMzcrash970
Now I'm not a pally but you want to be use DV, Shelltron, and RA. A barrier, a guarantee block with mp return, and a dps attack are great
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11-17-2015, 12:20 AMAshkendor
I use Royal Authority constantly. There's not much point in spamming RoH if you are already holding a large aggro lead over the rest of your party; the potency on RA is far higher. The other three are a little more selectively useful. In dungeons, I use Sheltron a lot on trash packs for the mana restore, and it's great for single-hit physical tankbusters (like Heavenly Heel in the new EX trial). Divine Veil is a little bit of mitigation for whomever is nearby you. It's nice to use any time you know that the party is going to take some AoE damage; the problem is that you can't just pop it and have the mitigation be active. You have to be healed by someone besides yourself with the buff active in order to trigger it, which takes some of the control of when it goes off out of your hands. Clemency I use quite a bit, though usually it's covering for bad healers (or dead healers, or the complete lack of healers) or when I'm solo.
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11-17-2015, 03:55 AMJpec07
In +50 content, they're "okay." We finally have a DPS finisher and a DoT, which brings us categorically up to par with other jobs in the game (but still not really all that unique at all).
Rage of Halone is more useful while you're gearing up and immediately after the pull (or when trying to recover an errant mob from that leet BLM who got it before you could). But once you've got enough enmity on a boss or the mob you're focusing, Royal Authority is where it's at.
You'll want to make sure to try to keep Goring Blade up as much as possiblesays the PLD who almost never keeps it up.It'll help with enmity and is a pretty high-potency combo when the DoT runs its course.
Sheltron is situational, especially because there's so little physical damage going out nowadays (there may be more in Mocianne's and Pharos Hard).
Divine Veil is also situational, and you'll want to put a macro into it to make sure your healers know to heal you to activate it.
Clemency can also be pretty beastly, but is definitely stronger when you're off-tanking in Slaying gear (I've noticed a ~2500HP dip in its effectiveness since switching from Slaying to Fending at my healer's request). The 3s cast time makes it hard to use, but you can use it to keep your party up if your healer had to AFK for a few seconds.
All in all, they're not bad because they function, but they're not exactly great, either. -
11-17-2015, 04:40 AMMalicewolf
Divine Veil is very hard to use as well as situational. I've macro'd it, but it still get's ignored half the time and the other half, people are too far away and the healer is spamming heals too quickly and set it off with hardly anyone in range (or no one). When I'm running with my FC in a skype call however, it works just fine.
Clemency is great for boss fights when the boss isn't wailing down on you like crazy. Mobs however, not very useful as the stream of attacks are just too constant to pull one off. Not to mention, it takes about 2/5 of your MP. So for a PLD, it's no use on mobs as we require flash to really hold down mobs and can't afford to lose so much MP on a heal that probably won't get through in time and takes enough time, that a healer would likely pull aggro from you in that time frame. If it's a slow boss you're MT'ing or you are OT, it's great!
Sheltron, helpful, but easily wasted if you don't pay attention or time it carefully.
I have not yet been blessed with the use of Royal Authority. But I hear it's great :P -
11-17-2015, 05:16 AMSeku
Their all decent in the new throdan fight if your healer's aren't that great. But other than that, yes their meh and can easily be replaced / aren't really needed. Except RA...you wanna be using that once you're good with hate and have goring blade up.
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11-17-2015, 07:01 AMYonanja
Divine Veil: Sounds nice on paper, not really all that useful tho, since it got a long cooldown and it can be tricky to hit the party with it sometimes.
Clemency: Pretty much only use this in normal dungeons, if there's a misshap and the healer dies, then I try to keep people alive with it just for the chuckles. In reality it's pretty crappy tho.
Royal Authority: Sure I use it since it excists, but I've never really seen the point of having DPS only attacks on a tank (that includes all tankclasses), we're there to... you know, TANK!? In my opinion they should have given us something different instead, but meh!
Goring Blade: It's ok I guess, same as with Royal Authority. But why is the PLD DoT skill the only one hidden behind a combo barrier?
Sheltron: Pretty much really the only useful skill PLD got with the expansion in my opinion. Too bad I don't really have all that many things to spend my mana on tho, unless I'm spamming flash. -
11-17-2015, 07:39 AMRalvenomBecause, like it or hate it, tank dps totally matters -- even if you are the "defense tank".Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonanja
What's silly to me is that PLD players are always whining about what essentially constitutes doing their job. Good performance of the tank role REQUIRES (regardless of meta, actually) that a tank do the following:- Maintain hate,
- Stay alive through proper use of abilities,
- AND do as much damage as it is possible for a tank to do.
The concern right now (although, it's been halfway fixed in 3.1) is that PLD MT damage is lower than WAR MT or DRK MT damage.
Why in the world so many PLD tanks want to complain about combos that do damage is beyond me. It's such a ridiculous thing to complain about...
The main intent of this skill, I imagine, was to give PLD something in raids to mitigate raid-wide damage. In other words, it works best when you coordinate with your healers and use it to help with hard-hitting raid boss AoE attacks that the group generally is stacked up for. If you fail to coordinate with your healers to allow proper use of the ability, that's your problem -- not a problem with the design/intent of the ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonanja
The CD isn't really that long, considering some of the "best" tank CDs in the game are 180 seconds, whereas Divine Veil is 150 seconds. Over the course of a 8:30 fight, that's 3 uses of Divine Veil. That's the same recast time as Vengeance (WAR skill). -
11-17-2015, 08:13 AMSapphidia
To mirror Ralvenom above, I feel people don't really understand the way to use Divine Veil best. I find it one of the more useful skills in my repertoire. I generally find good spots to use it on just about every raid encounter. It's all about adding additional stability to the group.
The onus isnt on the Healer to suddenly cast a heal on the tank to proc it. The onus is on the -tank- to know when they're being healed so it gets procced automatically. The tank has to learn the fight, and then weaves in Divine Veil at points of heaviest AOE damage, and needs to learn how their healers heal in order to ensure it procs.
It's also not really an AOE shield on its own, think of it more as a way to boost the aoe heals of your healers during moments they might otherwise struggle with (particularly back to back AOEs, or a single huge tera-flare esque like Thordan Ex's limitbreak).
Some examples - when grouped up for soaking the double cleave on the entire party in the hand phase in A3S. Pop one after the first digititis part and when everyone is stacked infront of it, you'll get healed anyway as there's so much AOE healing needed and it'll fire off and hit everyone. Thordan Ex, in the first phase you can cast it after the thunderstorm then run into the group to soak the Dragon's Rage, and the heal that healed up the Dragon's Rage will pop your Veil so it's up to soak the following Ancient Qaga. Also, when tanking A2S and standing near your co-tank and both taking lots of damage, popping your divine veil as you're being spam healed is the same as an instant cast stoneskin on the other tank.
Divine Veil is -not- good if you just pop it when people are spread out and then shout at your healers to heal you. It's mostly about knowing a fight and knowing how your team's healers heal, and then using it as a way to enhance their AOE heals on the roughest moments, often when you have multiple AOEs going out at once. Just remember that Divine Veil is procced if you get hit by a Medica or Succor, so often it's easy to just pop it before you know one of those is comign, rather than rely on a healer specifically casting a single target heal on you.
That said, I'd certainly not argue against DV getting a buff (ideally a shorter cooldown, maybe a bigger radius or a boost to 15% or something). It's okay as it is and I find I get a lot of use out of it, but it's not exactly overpowered. -
11-17-2015, 08:19 AMBranniganIn an 8:30 fight, warrior can use vengeance at:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
0:00 start of the fight
2:00
4:00
6:00
8:00
Five times.
Divine Veil could be used at
0:00
2:30
5:00
7:30
4 times.
But you shouldn't really be comparing Vengeance and Divine Veil, since one is personal mitigation and the other is raid mitigation. Vengeance lasts 15 seconds while Veil lasts a set amount of HP (usually one hit, a raid AOE). Divine Veil's cooldown is too long. The closest ability to it is Deployment Tactics, which can absorb WAY more damage and is on a shorter cooldown. -
11-17-2015, 08:56 AMDonjoI don't think that's the cause of the confusion. Take a look at all of the combo enders for the Tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
WAR
Storm's Path: Deals Damage... and reduces enemy damage dealt.
Storm's Eye: Deals damage... and reduces enemy slashing resistance.
Butcher's Block: Deals damage... and generates a ton of Enmity.
DRK
Delirium: Deals Damage... and reduces enemy intelligence.
Souleater: Deals Damage... and provides a self heal(in Grit at least).
Power Slash: Deals Damage... and generates a ton of Enmity.
PLD
Goring Blade: Deals Damage... and provides a powerful dot.
Rage of Halone: Deals Damage... and generates a ton of Enmity.
Royal Authority: Deals Damage... and nothing else.
Royal Authority is the only Tank combo ender that does not have any kind of additional effect. To many, this feels like a missed opportunity. -
11-17-2015, 11:19 AMLaunchedYou forgot that Halone has STR Down. Maybe you'd prefer it if that was moved to Royal to give each finisher something instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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11-17-2015, 11:26 AMDonjoHaha, oops. You're right there. STR Down could be good on Royal though. It'd ensure that it stays on monsters more often no matter what the Paladin is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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11-17-2015, 04:48 PMMartin_ArcainessWhy not apply both Deployment tactics and Divine veil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
Funny thing is people was asking for a Stone Skin that would effect all party members and we got it in the form of divine veil. It's just a matter of people knowing when to use it. it even happens to Stone Skin, a few people saying it's useless because they can't find a time to use it. in that case it's the players fault not knowing how to use the skill not the skill itself. -
11-17-2015, 06:17 PMCheraa
Divine Veil is okay. Would like to see it trigger without an incoming heal. But well, it has some uses, even in Duty Content. In Alexander Turn 4, I use it always in both AOE Phases where players Gather. There is always an PT Heal that triggers it before the AOE DMG comes in.
Sheltron is awsome, love that talent. Even more with 3.1 to trigger shield swipe.
RA and GB are both great new Combos. I use them always.
Halone for Aggro, STR Down, followed by shield swipe, than GB Combo, followed by RA Combo. If GB Dot or STR Down are close on running out, I start one of those combos again.
With Shield Swipe oGCD I never had issues with Aggro. -
11-18-2015, 02:07 AMRalvenomI still fail to see the issue. As Launched said, Halone reduces enemy str. An attack that deals damage is perfectly acceptable for ANY CLASS, regardless of whether you like or not. Considering that PLD have block*, it balances out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
*Block & Storm's Path debuff both result in reduced dmg taken, but Block is constant. No WAR worth his/her salt keeps Storm's Path up all the time.
Let's be realistic here. There's very little reason to use vengeance at the start of a pull, since you don't need the 30% dmg reduction then. (You also probably wouldn't use it near the end of encounter either.) Likewise, you wouldn't use Divine Veil at start of pull, since you don't need the raid-wide shield then. Taking that into consideration, you basically have a viable opportunity to use either ability 3 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
I'm comparing them based on time. I thought that was kind of obvious, based on this sentence:Quote:
But you shouldn't really be comparing Vengeance and Divine Veil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
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11-18-2015, 05:02 AMBranniganFirst of all, even if you don't need the 30% reduction in damage (let's say you're offtanking), SE has made it so their golden child can use Vengeance to get another stack for Fell Cleave. Second, there's plenty of fights where very early mitigation will help you. In A1S you can Vengeance right before pulling/on the pull to mitigate his opening attacks and Vengeance will be back in time for the tank buster. In A3S you can Vengeance early and defend against a swipe and protean wave. Manipulator missiles immediately on pull. Thordan cleaves within 3 GCDs. Bahamut uses Flare Breath on pull. Mitigating this stuff might let your healers get a stronger opening burst, which especially in Alexander can be the difference between an enrage and a win. None of this matters, though, because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
Quote:
I'm comparing them based on time. I thought that was kind of obvious, based on this sentence: That's the same recast time as Vengeance (WAR skill).
They do not have the same recast time. If an attack comes in 2 minute intervals (like, say, A1S's tank buster), Divine Veil won't mitigate it, but Vengeance will. So will Deployment Tactics, Virus, Eye for an Eye (traited), and Reprisal. Divine Veil's only advantage is that it doesn't need an enemy target, but even still its cooldown is too long when you consider paladin's other lackluster utility. If the other stuff gets improved then sure, leave Veil as is. -
11-18-2015, 05:17 AMRalvenomUm...they both have a 150 seconds cooldown time, which means THEY DO have the same recast time. Are we even speaking English?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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11-18-2015, 05:25 AMBrannigan
http://i.imgur.com/nKvSUL2.png
C'mon man
@OP sorry for this stupid derail. Hard to let misinformation like this go. Use all of your abilities. Remember that you don't need a huge enmity gap between you and second place so you might as well get more damage from Royal Authority. Sheltron is probably our best/coolest new ability and with good timing you can block a lot of neat stuff. Clemency is useful in dungeons and if your party is full of blind people who keep stepping in the fire (it will be) -
11-18-2015, 05:33 AMRalvenomFine, I concede you're correct. Don't be condescending about it. I'm at work & can only look abilities on websites. Pardon me if all of the sites haven't udpated. (That's really quite mind-boggling...that it's 5months into the expansion, and all the sites I found had Vengeance on a 150 second recast time.) Whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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11-18-2015, 05:52 AMUltimatecaliburIts actually stronger than an AoE stoneskin on everyone but a Warrior in Defiance as the shield is equal to 10% the Paladin's hp. With an i210 Vit Paladin this is 40% (Dragoon) to 60% (Healer) stronger than Stoneskin if they are in i210.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess
The biggest problem I've seen with the Divine Veil is that it scales best with Vit, but the current meta favors Str. -
11-18-2015, 09:25 AMJandor
Sheltron: Kind of cool, short cool down, restores MP, nice for big physical hits if timed perfectly. Would be nice if auto attacks didn't occasionally knock it off.
Divine Veil: Pretty cool, nice when it works as intended.
Clemency: Seems like a bit of a flavour skill really. Still waiting for the moment when it will come in really useful, although I think it will one day.
Royal Authority: Boring but it does the job. -
11-18-2015, 10:57 AMDonjoThe point is that Royal Authority is an odd one out. As I said, it's the only Tank combo finisher without any additional effect. You'll come to understand why some people would find that boring once you've spent more time with all of the Tanking jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
If you're looking for an up to date site that easily allows for looking at ability details, I find that the Garland Tools Database never fails me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
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11-18-2015, 11:56 AMRalvenomAs I said, it balances out. /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
Thanks!Quote:
If you're looking for an up to date site that easily allows for looking at ability details, I find that the Garland Tools Database never fails me.
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11-18-2015, 03:37 PMBrian_I just find it funny you tell him not to be condescending when you questioned his ability to speak English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralvenom
Just saying. -
11-18-2015, 06:49 PMAshkendorI've actually been using it to self heal up after Sacred Cross while the charge mechanic goes off so our WHM can focus on getting the rest of the party topped off without leaving me at half HP to pick up Adelphel. *shrugs* Not like I'm doing anything else at that point. I'm not getting hit or hitting anything so there's no interruption or DPS loss. It seems to be somewhat helpful, in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Mostly I just hated standing there doing absolutely nothing for several seconds while the mechanic goes off. -
11-18-2015, 08:39 PMMartin_ArcainessDamn that some HP mitigation there. At the moment for Thordan I'm mostly using VIT gear as he hits like a truck even with AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
About Royal Authority, I don't get why people saying it's boring because it has no effect. It's a awesome skill! The main point of it is to increase your DPS purely so it doesn't need a status effect added onto it. I'ts pure potency. -
11-19-2015, 12:43 AMFallenWingsThe issue with Royal Authority is that it comparatively sucks when you want to Sword Oath tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess
The Royal Authority combo is like a half baked Butcher's Block chain for PLD.
Butcher's Block for Warrior is their strongest combo chain AND their primary enmity chain, which enables them to do two things at once, DPS more and Hold Aggro.
Storm's Path is the lowest combo chain and is largely optional.
Rage of Halone is the lowest combo chain and is required if you want to hold aggro.
This disparity is made worse thanks to PLD's enmity modifiers being lower than WARs and DRKs ontop of the fact that PLDs have no equivalent in Maim/Darkside for further Enmity boosting.
I don't know how good the new Shield Swipe is for enmity so I can't comment on that properly but I'm fairly sure that 150 x3(?) every 15-Badluck does not outweigh a static +25% or 15%(+Dark Arts) to overall enmity.
In regards to PLD skills
Clemency is always going to be niche unless it can operate like Equilibrium (Instantaneous Self Heal).
Divine Veil is going to be niche until we encounter something like a Teraflare in which ALL Debuffs and Raid-wide Shields MUST be up. But then that would incur a problem in which Divine Veil becomes necessary and DRKs get left out.
Sheltron I would really like to see it block Magic damage at the very least. It would lessen the mitigation disparity with Magical Tankbusters whilst also letting DRK still be the magic specialist since 10 seconds of all magical damage > 1 instance of magical damage. If this is somehow too imbalanced, then let DRKs parry magical damage. They would further be the better magic specialist by chance. Just spitballing.