So, after the patch, how goes it with Paladin?

So, can anyone tell me how the changes to Paladin are working?

Is the reduced TP cost noticeable?
Exactly how has the behavior of Shield Swipe changed?

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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Oh good grief, what is your problem? I was just asking for someone to explain how the changes to the PLD skills actually worked out in-game instead of on paper.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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This patch is like a 4% DPS upgrade only while tanking, and the TP buff is almost non-existent. Any issues players still had, like being outclassed by DRK in the DPS and (for this tier) defensive department, as well as other disadvantages on taking PLD over DRK, are still alive and well.

If people wanted to whine before, this patch has no reason to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

This patch is like a 4% DPS upgrade only while tanking, and the TP buff is almost non-existent. Any issues players still had, like being outclassed by DRK in the DPS and (for this tier) defensive department, as well as other disadvantages on taking PLD over DRK, are still alive and well.

If people wanted to whine before, this patch has no reason to stop them.

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I take it then, that despite being an off GCD ability with a recast timer, Shield Swipe still requires a block to 'proc' it?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I take it then, that despite being an off GCD ability with a recast timer, Shield Swipe still requires a block to 'proc' it?

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Yes.And the decreased potency definitely doesnt do it any favors, even if its a minimal dps gain

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

Yes.And the decreased potency definitely doesnt do it any favors, even if its a minimal dps gain

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So, basically it's tinkering with the fringes that sounds like they are paying attention, but does nothing to address the actual issues?


They should have removed the need for a block on shield swipe, and extended the recast to 20s, or expanded the proc to block or parry. Fixing the utterly redundant pacification status would be nice as well.

Yeah I've only done island exploration and void ark since the patch but the block requirement definitely limits the DPS gain, especially while using tower shields. I guess it's kind of a tradeoff between making sheltron better with tower shields or swipe more reliable with smaller ones.

Enmity and TP feel the same.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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Says the guy who leveled GLA only to get Provoke. Go play PLD and then we'll talk.

The buff to Paladin misses the mark by a huge margin. It really does nothing to address the real issues behind the tanks, but it is a DPS increase (any DPS increase is a good DPS increase).

Thordan EX is a pretty PLD fight. All the tank damage is physical, there's a multi-hit massive cleave, there's almost no DPS check (and the DPS checks that do exist can be ignored to a certain extent with mitigation), and there are breaks where you have to look away from the boss when you can be casting instead of just twiddling your thumbs. It's also nice in that tank damage is probably the most threatening damage as long as mechanics go well.

I really enjoy that fight more than almost anything else they've released since 3.0, but all that says to me is that the tank design is really bad. If you go into Thordan as DRK, it's totally doable because it doesn't actually hit that hard, but you have a more restrictive toolkit for the exact same encounter and these magic-only skill that are basically useless the majority of the fight. It's basically like A4S, where on PLD or on healer you're just ignoring so many of your skills. It's not really fun to just not have a use for your skills.

Shield Swipe added a little DPS - personally now wishing desperately that Sheltron and Shield Swipe had the same recast.

No more Pacification/Enmity spam on trash packs.

TP falls flat at roughly the same rate.

Pretty much exactly everything anyone that read the prelim-notes projected.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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This coming from a war, What a shocker.

Coming from a war, SE, Why aggro combo from both war and dark is 300 potency, and the Pld one 260 ? it mean less aggro, less dps...
It's a problem because when a pld is OT without using rage of halone, he still have a good damage output, not as strong than War and dark but it's still not bad
, but not when he is MT, it's why i think Rage of the Halone potency should be the same as the two others tank.
Change the cover range, because when PLD is MT they can cover only the Melee... PLD don't have to get unless skill.
It would be right to make the switch as Dps/tank Stance not using so much GCD,
Swap Sword oat and shield oat again cost 2 GCD, it make sword oat useless, cause you have to swap for a good time if you want to make up the 2 GCD a swap cost... to finaly not win so much dps.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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http://33.media.tumblr.com/f62514978...ko3bo1_400.gif

The shield swipe change above all makes the class more FUN even if the performance gain is a mere 4% or so - it actually makes the button one worth pressing, and off-gcds are always fun to use as it makes the combat feel faster and more fluid. Can't complain.

It certainly hasnt changed any of Paladin's issues in Alex Savage of course (the only thing that fixes that right now is More Gear), but after doing Thordan Extreme I'm actually pretty happy - this fight is just perfect for a more "tank minded" paladin who enjoys making the most out of their mitigation kit, and DPS requirements are really minor. Just being able to Sentinel + Sheltron the Heaven's Heel and see it hit for a paltry 7k or something with such minimal effort makes me smile. I've even found good specific uses for Divine Veil - some good moments of chunky repeated AOE where the raid is grouped.

More encounters like Thordan would go far further to "fixing" Paladin's problems than any actual buffs. If Alex Savage Part 2 is more like Thordan Extreme than Gordian... Paladins are in a really good spot. We shall see.

Paladin changes?

What Paladin changes?

Paladin feels much better personally. Enjoying mah procs and dat swipe. Not sure why paladins still complain.

I will agree with others, even if it does lower dmg, ogcd shield swipe is very nice; you just have to pop your Bulwark, Mine with bosses has been alive pretty much, just the cooldown of it once used.. >.< (they should make it without any cooldown once used)

the rest, I still get to 0 TP, so.. sigh..

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

I will agree with others, even if it does lower dmg, ogcd shield swipe is very nice; you just have to pop your Bulwark

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Bulwark gets you at most 2 procs every 3 minutes

Honestly at this point I just want them to buff PLD to WAR/DRK levels just so we have something else to talk about.

The off cool down shield swipe is really nice. The job honestly doesn't feel that much different though honestly..until they change it up a bit more I am doing what everyone says to do and am just playing a war..if definitely feels like it stands up to hits just as well, does more dmg and keeps hate WAY better..specially with that nice eso axe =P


edit for simplicity: If you didn't like the way PLD played before, you probably won't like it still.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Honestly at this point I just want them to buff PLD to WAR/DRK levels just so we have something else to talk about.

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It'd just change from "Buff PLD" threads from PLD mains to "Nerf PLD" threads from WAR/DRK mains.

So first to that WAR be quiet baiter. I main WAR currently but leveling GLD and my BF mains PLD yeah its still pretty bad, but it could be worse he says.

It could be better but to be true, the only Content where it really matters is Alexander Savage. No where else will you ever have issues as Paladin.
Played one of the new ilvl170 Dungeons yesterday with my ilvl176 Paladin and didn't had any issues with my Hate.

I still think, SE should just delete the 20% DMG reduction at Shield Oath, give Flash a DoT Potency and we would be fine.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If PLD are still complaining after the Patch, then they're just whiners. LMAO

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Out of TP more than before on Faust, if you must know.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

Coming from a war, SE, Why aggro combo from both war and dark is 300 potency, and the Pld one 260 ?

It would be right to make the switch as Dps/tank Stance not using so much GCD,
Swap Sword oat and shield oat again cost 2 GCD, it make sword oat useless, cause you have to swap for a good time if you want to make up the 2 GCD a swap cost... to finaly not win so much dps.

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pld rage of halone also applies str down buff, compared to drk's power slash which does nothing
pld shield oath is 20% dmg decrease, compared to war's 25% damage decrease.
Stance CD is the GCD, compared with 10s for War. Did you know turning on Grit for Drk also uses a GCD?

Swapping from shield to sword then to shield again is a dps gain for more than 3 gcds.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

pld rage of halone also applies str down buff, compared to drk's power slash which does nothing [snip]
Swapping from shield to sword then to shield again is a dps gain for more than 3 gcds.

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First of all, no it's not. Swapping is a loss of at least 500 potency (in and out, average RA potency with slashing debuff). In those 3 GCD, you get .2*250*3+55*(3 or 4)+30 or 40 so you get about 350-400 potency.

Second of all, that's actually all the more reason Halone should be at least 300 potency. They should be encouraging us to use it for the STR debuff if we're OT or when we're MTing and have already established aggro. Making it so low discourages its use except for hate when absolutely necessary.

500 potency? How exactly did you get to that number?

Swapping in and out takes 2 GCD. Assume that you would have done 2 steps of a Royal Authority combo in those 2 GCD.

A Royal Authority combo is (150+200+340). With slashing debuff, each GCD has an average potency of 253. Losing 2 of those GCD is 500 potency on average.

However, that's actually only true if you cancel the first two steps of the combo to stance dance. Cancelling mid-combo is an even bigger potency loss than 500 because you have to repeat the Fast Blade step. (Though it actually also depends how many times you stance dance. If you dance once and lose 2 GCD without cancelling a combo you lose only an average of 192/GCD since you lost two steps, but if you lose 6 you lose an average of 253 since you lost two full combos.)

Ah ok you need to plan for two swaps. That makes sense.

That's right. You can do 1 swap if you just turn off Shield Oath, but SwO is like 13% of your DPS and in the current content you only dance into the tank stance, not out, so that's not really a real strategy right now.

2 changes,

1. TP -
Still run out of TP so fast.

2. Swipe -
Its nice, only works when you MT though.

To be honest, i'm quite disappointed with these "changes" the TP i can hardly notice i do still notice i run out of TP way before anyone else does though.

Having your hardest hitting combo also be an enmity builder is a double edged sword. While it's awesome for single target aggro, it sucks when pushing DPS as ot. I main war, but I play the other tanks frequently as well (still leveling pally, I'm pretty casual) and as war ot I can't weave in my highest DPS combos or I'll steal hate. This sounds like a "oh the war probz lol" statement but imagine this being a problem with every tank. Butchers block hits for 280 (if I remember right) as an enmity finisher, which is great if your the only tank, not so much ot. Keep in mind, I don't have a static, I do play with fc buddies but only occasionally. So I'm saying this from a df perspective.

@Alimdia - Except maim increases war's dmg by 20%, making only a 5% loss in tank stance when its up. Having darkside on drk active with grit like war is only a 5% dps loss. You cannot compare this to pld at all period.

here we go again.

maim + defiance = 1.2 * 0.75 = 0.9

ergo, 90% of original damage, not 95%

grit + darkside = 1.15 * 0.8 = 0.92

ergo, 92% of original damage and again, not 95%

@Rawker - Hmm, so your saying maim is applied before defiance? Regardless, my main point was how much higher straight dps in tank stances are for both drk and war. That's really all lol.

stances and buffs are multiplicative.

although when FoF is up, a PLD has a net gain of 4% in shield oath

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

@Alimdia - Except maim increases war's dmg by 20%, making only a 5% loss in tank stance when its up. Having darkside on drk active with grit like war is only a 5% dps loss. You cannot compare this to pld at all period.

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Maim is a 20% str increase not damage. It does increase damage, but not by 20%. Storms eye raises damage by slashing weapons so it is a direct DPS increase. If we get nitty gritty technicality wise, a war combining unchained with these buffs/debuffs is the highest dmg mt, albeit for 30 seconds. Not trying to be mean if it sounds that way. I agree that I would like to see pally changes.

Weird, the tool tip clearly says "Combo Bonus: Increases damage dealt by 20% Duration: 24s"

@Rawker - That's interesting that its applied that way. Any idea why the dev's did the math like that? As for the flight or flight argument, I was just straight out comparing non cooldown buffs.

If you want to compare cooldown buffs, wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare berserk vs FoF? Or you just trying to compare the dps increase duration of 24 vs 30 seconds?

Since you seem to like math, let me give you a very simple example:

Lets say every 10 seconds you deal 10k dmg. For the sake of buffs, lets take a look at 3 cycles of that.

So that's 30k dmg, in 30 seconds.

Paladin:

30k + FoF = 39k dmg

Warrior:

20k + berserk (only 20 seconds) + 10k unbuffed dmg = 40k dmg.

Looks to me in that simple math, that warrior with just berserk pulls ahead by 1k dmg. That's not even bringing in the potency differences between combos.

My bad, sorry for misinformation.