Why so little class tweaks in this patch?

Only 4 classes are getting some tweaks unless I'm reading the notes wrong and it seems only Nin and Pal are getting actually tweaks. I feel Brd is just a wasted fix in this patch, instead of adjusting the tp cost for aoe skills we get a reduced straight shot with a adjusted timer? Ast gets to keep Royal Road when they leave an area, but the rng of card draws isn't adjusted? Nor is the potency of their skills? I mean these are just two issues I've heard of and experience when I play that should have been looked at. Does the lack of adjustments made to the classes alarm anyone else? Or is it just me?

Would it really be necessary to reduce AoE TP costs after Rain of Death got changed? I have 60 BRD and found its AoE already potent enough when multidotting.

They should have increased the duration of Warden's Paean, didnt they say they would look into it? Its kind of weird they didn't, 30 seconds duration with a casting time its rarely worth using.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinglybell

They should have increased the duration of Warden's Paean, didnt they say they would look into it? Its kind of weird they didn't, 30 seconds duration with a casting time its rarely worth using.

---

This is the only thing missing right now for BRD... Paean is situational at best, utterly useless and time wasting at worst.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sove92

Would it really be necessary to reduce AoE TP costs after Rain of Death got changed? I have 60 BRD and found its AoE already potent enough when multidotting.

---

Changing it to be a little less would be better in my opinion then what is being "fixed" as it is Quick Nock and Wide Volley do the same damage but WV cost more, it's a pointless skill since the changes to RoD. If the skills had a increase in damage then I can see them costing what they did in 2.0, but we have no need for two AoE skills that do the same damage but have different costs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Changing it to be a little less would be better in my opinion then what is being "fixed" as it is Quick Nock and Wide Volley do the same damage but WV cost more, it's a pointless skill since the changes to RoD. If the skills had a increase in damage then I can see them costing what they did in 2.0, but we have no need for two AoE skills that do the same damage but have different costs.

---

Oh true, forgot about that...
I wish it would get a damage buff. I'd rather not go back to the proc chance (unless they make it a better proc chance than before...make it like 50% to trigger QN or something IDK) but something has to be done since I love the animation but it's useless unless you're very very lazy :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AskaRay

Oh true, forgot about that...
I wish it would get a damage buff. I'd rather not go back to the proc chance (unless they make it a better proc chance than before...make it like 50% to trigger QN or something IDK) but something has to be done since I love the animation but it's useless unless you're very very lazy :(

---

Ast has it worse then Brd though, it's like they didn't even look at all the complaints about that class.

The difference between Quick Knock and Wide Volley is range and area of effect. Quick Knock is a short range cone whereas Wide Volley is a smaller radius Rain of Death. I don't use Quick Knock much, despite being cheaper, for the very reason of it's short range.

I almost never use Wide volley, lol. Quick knock is cheaper, and I find it just as easy to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinglybell

They should have increased the duration of Warden's Paean, didnt they say they would look into it? Its kind of weird they didn't, 30 seconds duration with a casting time its rarely worth using.

---

1 second cast time off the global CD with an MP cost of Esuna sounds fair to me ;D I want this ;-;.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

The difference between Quick Knock and Wide Volley is range and area of effect. Quick Knock is a short range cone whereas Wide Volley is a smaller radius Rain of Death. I don't use Quick Knock much, despite being cheaper, for the very reason of it's short range.

---

Quick Knock can hit everything depending on your positioning, you shouldn't be too far away for it to only hit a few things. You're also doing less damage using WV I just tested the tp cost and I only got 8 WVs off and 10 QNs since you get auto tp back in combat. If we didn't get auto tp WV would only be able to be used 6 times 1000/160=6.25 and QN would be used 7 1000/140=7.14. You might want to reconsider using QN over WV.

How about deleting some skills then adding their ability properties to another move.

Its been argued in a bunch of bard threads, but I still feel WM needs some extra tweaking to make up for the reduced mobility.
BRD's utilities dont make it THAT special that it still has to be roughly 15-20% less dmg than every other DPS class.

SMN's move around just as much as BRD's do now and yet their dps output is on par and sometimes better than other DPS classes. Once SMN's dots are cast they have just as much freedom to move as a bard with or without Wanderer's Minuet and still pull decent numbers. (There's a thread regarding WM's DPS gains vs loss and I'll link it later if I can find it again)

Even at 60 I still see a lot of other bards who refuse to use WM because the DPS loss and gain from the ability isn't enough to warrant their lost mobility. As much as this bothers me because Ive learned to use WM, I cant blame other bards for not using it. If I knew I wouldn't get yelled at for it, I'd likely never use it either. It just doesnt FEEL worth it yet. One of the easiest ways I can see to fix the issue with WM, is to remove its Recast timer or shorten it to a 3-5second recast. This would allow Bard's to stance dance more effectively and push out better numbers and still allow us our mobility when we need/want it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vespar

Its been argued in a bunch of bard threads, but I still feel WM needs some extra tweaking to make up for the reduced mobility.
BRD's utilities dont make it THAT special that it still has to be roughly 15-20% less dmg than every other DPS class.

SMN's move around just as much as BRD's do now and yet their dps output is on par and sometimes better than other DPS classes. Once SMN's dots are cast they have just as much freedom to move as a bard with or without Wanderer's Minuet and still pull decent numbers. (There's a thread regarding WM's DPS gains vs loss and I'll link it later if I can find it again)

---

If only they looked into like they said, instead we get useless tweak to SS. So many classes have balancing issues and odd skills, it's very concerning to me that they are letting the balance slide, yet they change the difficulty of the fights to work around their initial imbalances.

When I play Drk I actually use a mix of health and strength build, since I don't take much except for friends and fc mates, when I run the Vault and get a Ast the fights either go smoothly if it's a experienced player, but if it's not the battles are long and tough because of the skills the Ast is working with, players complain they're under preformed classes and the massive rng factor to the class doesn't help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

If only they looked into like they said, instead we get useless tweak to SS. So many classes have balancing issues and odd skills, it's very concerning to me that they are letting the balance slide, yet they change the difficulty to the fights to work around their initial imbalances.

---

I wont deny we needed a fix for Straighter Shot, but there are for more underlying issues with Bard than just SS.
It's not just bard that needs some fixes either (obviously). There are a few classes out there that could use some much needed re-balancing. BLM, PLD, and AST to name a few. Heck not all of the fixes we need are balance issues. :P
MCH really needs a fix to its leg animations. What the heck is up with their stationary legs while the upper torso does all the moves. Looks very.... wrong somehow. Even when you shoot a gun or a pistol in real life, your legs/feet pivot. But MCH just stands there both feet rooted to the floor. :P (Oh and MCH can be fairly RNG I've heard, so they could use some fixes to GB maybe to compensate for their potential lacking in DPS too)

Quick Nock (with its trait) actually covers a wider area than Wide Volley does, even though the name would have you think otherwise. Unless you absolutely have to AoE from as far away as possible, there's really no reason for Wide Volley to exist at present unless you just like burning through your TP faster for some reason.

Quote:

---

Ast gets to keep Royal Road when they leave an area, but the rng of card draws isn't adjusted?

---

What exactly is there to adjust? Are you just saying you want Balance to have higher odds of showing up?

It's a 1 in 6 thing; you're not supposed to get the one card you want most of the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zeonx

How about deleting some skills then adding their ability properties to another move.

---

Which skills, exactly? And while that may work at max level, I doubt leveling players will enjoy having eight or twelve levels with no new skills at all.

I still don't get all the bitching about WM. First, why do you need to sprint around like a 6 year old with ADD? Second, the cast time is only half of your GCD and doesn't even effect most of your kit. You still have a ton of instant oGCD abilities and plenty of time to weave them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnugglesD

I still don't get all the bitching about WM. First, why do you need to sprint around like a 6 year old with ADD? Second, the cast time is only half of your GCD and doesn't even effect most of your kit. You still have a ton of instant oGCD abilities and plenty of time to weave them.

---

Firstly its not needless bitching, its feedback. Secondly, Bards who run around like 6 year olds with ADD are irrelevant, the real issue is that Bard's didn't really get anything that made them feel more unique or better at what they do with 3.0. What Bards got was an ability that kept them on par with their original DPS percentage at most (and sometimes it doesnt even do that - situational) while losing the ability to move and still attack as necessary. (which I might add melee DPS are STILL able to move/dodge purely by shifting to one side or the other in most cases and some casters can still do this as well purely because they have dots on the target ie. SMN.) And yes it does affect our "kit", venomous Bite and Windbite for example still do dots, but getting those dots on with Wanderer's minuet now takes an extra second or so, plus (up until this soon to be released patch) WM, caused issues with straighter shot - which remains to be seen whether it will fully be fixed or not. Moving now causes us 100% DPS loss unless Bloodletter or Straighter Shot are available at the time we have to move. believe it or not, It does affect a Bard more than you might think. Can you learn to use it? Yes, I have in fact. But the fact still remains that it still doesn't FEEL like an improvement over 2.0 Bard. In many cases, it feels like a nerf over 2.0 Bard. Then add to the fact that machinist felt like a copy/paste of bard just with a turrent in place of songs, and you start to see why so many bards were annoyed.

To sum it up this person wrote a very good post in regards to it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3372739


If Wanderer's Minuet was created purely to stop the minority of ADD bards from moving around like idiots, it sounds like a poorly thought-out game play mechanic for the rest of bards as a whole.

*curious about what OP means with class tweak*

*found rant of BRD*

k.

*goes out*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moonleg

Which skills, exactly? And while that may work at max level, I doubt leveling players will enjoy having eight or twelve levels with no new skills at all.

---

Maybe combine Inner Beast/Fell Cleave and Steel Cyclone/Decimate to one button each

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

What exactly is there to adjust? Are you just saying you want Balance to have higher odds of showing up?

It's a 1 in 6 thing; you're not supposed to get the one card you want most of the time.

---

I've heard Ast players want the the ability for the card they drew to not show up if they redraw. Like if a player drew Spear and didn't want it when they draw again Spear is taken out of the possible draws. It makes sense from those players point of view, but since I don't play Ast, I've just heard a ton of players complain about that aspect of Ast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eul

*curious about what OP means with class tweak*

*found rant of BRD*

k.

*goes out*

---

Actually it's not solely related to Bard, it's about the lack of adjustments across the board, instead of the minimal amount they have put up. But thanks for adding to my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I've heard Ast players want the the ability for the card they drew to not show up if they redraw. Like if a player drew Spear and didn't want it when they draw again Spear is taken out of the possible draws. It makes sense from those players point of view, but since I don't play Ast, I've just heard a ton of players complain about that aspect of Ast.

---

To clarify, this would be referring to the Shuffle ability. It has a 60 second timer and its sole purpose is to replace the card you've drawn with a new one. The only time Shuffle gets used is when an unwanted card gets drawn. When Shuffle is used you have a chance to draw the exact same card you were trying to get rid of and when you do it feels like you just wasted a cooldown because it essentially did nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blueyes

To clarify, this would be referring to the Shuffle ability. It has a 60 second timer and its sole purpose is to replace the card you've drawn with a new one. The only time Shuffle gets used is when an unwanted card gets drawn. When Shuffle is used you have a chance to draw the exact same card you were trying to get rid of and when you do it feels like you just wasted a cooldown because it essentially did nothing.

---

Ahh ok, my Ast friend isn't on psn right now and got lazy with looking it up, thank you for clarifying it. He is always in a rouse when he shuffles and gets the same card, which is why I'm surprised that they haven't altered the skill in this patch. You'd think with them changing shield swipe to not affect the global cooldown, they'd of adjusted this as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vespar

SMN's move around just as much as BRD's do now and yet their dps output is on par and sometimes better than other DPS classes. Once SMN's dots are cast they have just as much freedom to move as a bard with or without Wanderer's Minuet and still pull decent numbers. (There's a thread regarding WM's DPS gains vs loss and I'll link it later if I can find it again)

---

I've got both SMN and BRD as my main DPS these days and I'd like to correct the misconception that SMNs get to move around freely once their DoTs are up. Ruin III has a long ass cast time, and if we're in a Dreadworm Trance phase, we want to be able to stand still as long as possible to fire off as many as we can before finishing with Deathflare. Essentially, SMN is rendered completely immobile for 15 seconds every minute if we want to maximize damage output.

SMN's base damage output is lower than bard on single targets. It's the egi that puts it equal to the other DPS classes.

You know, I would not have been upset if they made some changes to how Enochian and Astral Fire/Umbral Ice work. More specifically, make it so casting Fire IV/Blizzard IV didn't get interrupted if a buff fell off.

I've lost so many Enochian buffs because my Blizzard IV just wasn't fast enough to keep up with Enochian/Umbral Ice, and I've lost plenty of Fire IV casts to Astral Fire wearing off due to bullet hell boss fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HakuroDK

I've lost so many Enochian buffs because my Blizzard IV just wasn't fast enough to keep up with Enochian/Umbral Ice, and I've lost plenty of Fire IV casts to Astral Fire wearing off due to bullet hell boss fights.

---

Personally, I don't think it needs any changes. Would it be nice? Maybe. Is it necessary? Not at all. I don't particularly enjoy changes that are made simply to make it easier for some players. Sure, it's a little frustrating when the mechanics are against you. But then, BLM has always been about overcoming that.

Don't start casting Fire IV or Blizzard IV if you see you have <3 seconds on Enochian or Astral/Umbral Ice (and Swiftcast isn't available). Whenever this happens, I usually go with Blizzard III to refill my MP and start over. Learning to track timers and thinking ahead helps to keep your damage going out (which is better than it being cancelled and doing effectively 0 DPS for a few seconds).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Only 4 classes are getting some tweaks unless I'm reading the notes wrong and it seems only Nin and Pal are getting actually tweaks. I feel Brd is just a wasted fix in this patch, instead of adjusting the tp cost for aoe skills we get a reduced straight shot with a adjusted timer? Ast gets to keep Royal Road when they leave an area, but the rng of card draws isn't adjusted? Nor is the potency of their skills? I mean these are just two issues I've heard of and experience when I play that should have been looked at. Does the lack of adjustments made to the classes alarm anyone else? Or is it just me?

---

It could be SE does not know how to fix these issues and still working on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

If only they looked into like they said, instead we get useless tweak to SS. So many classes have balancing issues and odd skills, it's very concerning to me that they are letting the balance slide, yet they change the difficulty of the fights to work around their initial imbalances.
.

---

The SS changes is far from "useless" when it can delay your oGCD and functionally doesn't work as a proc; you couldn't ever catch it on the next GCD if the previous one was the HS that proc'd it. It's well overdue, and it doesn't address all of BRD's issue (because imo this is something that goes hand-in-hand with MCH design too, the two are so incredibly similiar to each other and it feels like a copy pasta).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vespar

Even when you shoot a gun or a pistol in real life, your legs/feet pivot. But MCH just stands there both feet rooted to the floor. :P (Oh and MCH can be fairly RNG I've heard, so they could use some fixes to GB maybe to compensate for their potential lacking in DPS too)

---

MCH can use a aesthetic redo in some areas, specifically wildfire and gauss barrel (at least an option to hide the damn thing).

Even with RNG, MCH dps still averages out to be fairly consistent with the changes to quick reload. The problem is that though, it starts to lose the novelty of ammo management and just becomes another oGCD, and at that point MCH doesn't really give much of it's identity through gameplay, espesically when compared to BRD. The two play incredibly similar to each other (despite one being an entirely new job for the expansion), and it drives me nuts as a former BRD main that now mains a MCH.