Suggestion: Make MSQ instances decrease dificulty based on first time players

All the players should be allowed to experience the story - once.

Instead of nerfing content for everyone, I think it would be better to nerf it only when there are new players doing it to allow them smooth progression.

Any subsequent run should be more difficult, as the instance is no longer needed for story progression and players should know the basics.

In my opinion it is better to scale the difficulty based on players in the group, rather than scaling it down for everybody just in case there would be someone new.

I think the current system with the Echo works just fine. Instead of assuming new players are going to suck and need their hands held from the start you need to give them a chance to prove they actually require help first, which is exactly what the Echo does. I would personally be pretty pissed if I were about to do a trial for the first time and the game took me aside to tell me it was going to nerf the difficulty right from the start just because I'm new. If it's going to do that it might as well just cut out the gameplay all together and just show me a cutscene of me beating the boss.

It'd be like playing a new console game and wanting to start on Hard (or I guess Medium in games where Hard and above has to be unlocked), but the game is like "Nah, this is your first time playing so I'm going to make you play on Very Easy first", completely disregarding the possibility that I might have decades of gaming experience that would allow me to take the plunge. That would make me flip a table. What it should do is offer to lower the difficulty if it thinks I'm dying too much (which is exactly what the game does right now), but at no point should it force me to let it hold my hand.

Likely the only reason SE is even adjusting certain duties in 3.1 (which is what I'm assuming is what prompted this thread) is due to a wildly disproportionate amount of wipes or drops in comparison to all the rest, even with the inclusion of the Echo. I've never personally had any real trouble with 99% of this game's content, but I'll trust SE to er... trust... their own collected data on this one.

Not all new players want everything handed to them.

I would detest this as a relatively new player myself. By coddling players in such a manner, you practically guarantee they won't be ready to tackle the actual difficulty spikes. Having cleared Titan HM a bunch over the last few days, my thrill came when I first managed to dodge all his mechanics, save one, which I self healed through. Learning on the go, challenge and all is what made it fun.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

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The current system with Echo clearly does not work if we are getting nerfs.

I also trust SE with their data, but I also trust their data can't include why do failed duties happen.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Not all new players want everything handed to them.

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That's true, but the issue is that when content gets nerfed - it is nerfed for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Yet again if we nerf encouters players are even more certain to be unable to handle the difficulty spikes.

You do the MSQ instanced battle and win? congratulation
You die? Don't worry. Here, let me buf you a bit with the Echo for your next try.

If this is not enough to do the instanced story battles there is still the option to level up to the max. level of the instance and to upgrade a bit the gear.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

The current system with Echo clearly does not work if we are getting nerfs.

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Some dungeons and primal fights get nerfs, not instanced story battles.
I think SE should just put Echo also on dungeon wipes.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Some dungeons and primal fights get nerfs, not instanced story battles.

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Of course my concern is mainly about trials and dungeons.

Content gets nerfs because they are old, not because noone's clearing them. There are exceptions (like Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius) but that's it, they are exceptions due to ramped difficulty (especially Pharos Sirius... I never could beat it originally as healer). Square learned from those dungeons, though, and have released content with a mind towards difficult fun instead of just difficult. But the older content gets the fewer people that run it, making that difficult fun potentially just difficult. I mean, how often have you run Amdapor Keep lately?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I would say that is more of a problem with insufficient rewards rather than difficulty itself.

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Point still stands, what have you done for Keep lately?

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Content gets nerfs because they are old, not because noone's clearing them. There are exceptions (like Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius) but that's it, they are exceptions due to ramped difficulty (especially Pharos Sirius... I never could beat it originally as healer). Square learned from those dungeons, though, and have released content with a mind towards difficult fun instead of just difficult. But the older content gets the fewer people that run it, making that difficult fun potentially just difficult. I mean, how often have you run Amdapor Keep lately?

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I would say that is more of a problem with insufficient rewards rather than difficulty itself.

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The current system with Echo clearly does not work if we are getting nerfs.

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The 51-59 dungeons, Ravana and Bismarck HM, do not have echo. So yeah, it's not "not working even with echo". In fact I know of no story mode dungeons that have echo.

Stuff that has echo: old Coils, (pre-HW) HM primals on death after 3 minutes, (pre-HW) EX primals on death after 3 minutes, solo story instance after 2 deaths, class quest instances after 2 deaths.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

That's true, but the issue is that when content gets nerfed - it is nerfed for everyone.

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What you ask for is hand holding at an insulting level. Assuming the player is incapable of taking on the content presented in front of them right at the start.

I don't get what you mean. In msq instances you already cannot replay them when completed, so we cannot get the harder version. Unless you are talking about df, which isn't really fair to other players or facilitates other problems in msq dungeons, mainly, the cutscenes.

And the current echo in msq instances after several failures is insultingly overpowering.

No. All MSQ instances are already stupidly easy. This game needs to stop making everything easy as hell and instead have an actual difficulty curve.

Should have gone with longer title I guess... I wrote "instances" as everything instanced (dungeons + trials included) which is required for MSQ.

I am also not saying to nerf content. I am saying that content which is being nerfed in the next patches, should be nerfed only for new playes to the duty.

Hope it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Should have gone with longer title I guess... I wrote "instances" as everything instanced (dungeons + trials included) which is required for MSQ.

I am also not saying to nerf content. I am saying that content which is being nerfed in the next patches, should be nerfed only for new playes to the duty.

Hope it makes sense.

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I think I get what you are saying, but that is a lot of content if you think about it. Unless its a specific buff on the player I don't know how it won't affect the experiences of the others.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think I get what you are saying, but that is a lot of content if you think about it. Unless its a specific buff on the player I don't know how it won't affect the experiences of the others.

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It could either be buff for the new player or the instances could scale down based on the number of new players. Something like 10% damage taken decreased and damage done increased per a player while making insta wipe mechanics do reasonable damage instead of wipe.

Basically player would do the content once for the story with easier difficulty and for the farm or alts the difficult would be normal.

I still don't know what kind of player this is meant to cater to. New players aren't so incompetent as to be incapable of learning a dungeon. I mean, if this were the case there'd be no good players in this game at all. There are players who've joined in the last year that are now cranking out Final Coil and Alexander Savage runs like it's nobody's business and they aren't 'hardcore raider's (I know this cause I've got a couple in my company). Again, old content gets nerfed not because noone's clearing it but because it's old. It's being adjusted to reflect the community's general move away from it in favor of newer content, not to cater to new players.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

No. All MSQ instances are already stupidly easy. This game needs to stop making everything easy as hell and instead have an actual difficulty curve.

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im gonna have to say this, for me personally games have gotten easier, and I'm having more difficaulty find games that i can't beat in 3 days. with everything ARR related outside solo instences can be undersized. New players shouldn't be spoon fed content like their babies just so a burly lvl 60 can rolfstomp the content.

Content should have a difficault curve to entice players to get better. As well as the community encourage to help new playewrs learn the game. I miss ff11 in this aspect because up till abyssea it had a nice learning curve and difficault curve. Mosters got harder the farther away from the city you got, here zones are sporatic mix of lvl 1-50.

Hell with the new level sync gear being = to hq geared 50+ players basically solo dungeons and players of the level end up sitting out of fight outside of boss battle simply because mobs die too dam fast, I personally hate being power leveled, or have stuff done for me.

I can't get better if i don't get a chance to participate.

You know you can turn off echo right?

I don't think it's necessary. Making it easier their first run would only ill-prepare them for the next time they run it and it's suddenly harder. We're all playing the same game here. If you can't beat something, you practice and learn until you can.

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Originally Posted by Azper

I don't think it's necessary. Making it easier their first run would only ill-prepare them for the next time they run it and it's suddenly harder. We're all playing the same game here. If you can't beat something, you practice and learn until you can.

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You mean until you overgear it or get carried? :rolleyes:

It would be nice if everyone would use this approach:

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Originally Posted by Azper

If you can't beat something, you practice and learn until you can.

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I have been farming the Vault whole day in DF with my paladin... still can't understand why should it be nerfed.

This should have been managed with the Solo instance mechanic. Other games introduced this option but they also had a massive over buff system applied with it. In LotRO you can do out dated raids solo but you go from 8K health to 160K health with massive offense and defense stats getting buffed as well. What it does is preserve the original content and simply manipulates character stats that void out the content difficulty and design, be it hit point wall bosses or adds zerg. U can absorb the damage and complete the raid.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Not all new players want everything handed to them.

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Completely agree with this. It would have turned me off greatly if this is the way this game was when I went thru the story. There is no story content in this game that is hard imo.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I have been farming the Vault whole day in DF with my paladin... still can't understand why should it be nerfed.

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I honestly can't either as it's mindlessly easy as is, but if you agree that it's easy then a nerf will make no substantial difference to you anyways.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I honestly can't either as it's mindlessly easy as is, but if you agree that it's easy then a nerf will make no substantial difference to you anyways.

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because it makes it more boring, and the only upside is that it solves a problem that doesn't exit.

But let's be honest, you already know that.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I have been farming the Vault whole day in DF with my paladin... still can't understand why should it be nerfed.

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Color me impressed, but you just completely undermined the entire proposal of your thread there. And did it on the first page, too! Usually takes a couple pages before this happens. Well, you said it, 'new' players don't need content nerfed just for them.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

All the players should be allowed to experience the story - once.

Instead of nerfing content for everyone, I think it would be better to nerf it only when there are new players doing it to allow them smooth progression.

Any subsequent run should be more difficult, as the instance is no longer needed for story progression and players should know the basics.

In my opinion it is better to scale the difficulty based on players in the group, rather than scaling it down for everybody just in case there would be someone new.

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You have got to be kidding me. The MSQ instances are already dirt easy and I only just started playing in May. No trouble whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Color me impressed, but you just completely undermined the entire proposal of your thread there. And did it on the first page, too! Usually takes a couple pages before this happens. Well, you said it, 'new' players don't need content nerfed just for them.

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I have undermined nothing, you just don't understand the context.

There are going to be nerfs - nerfs for everyone. I suggested that giving new players boost could allow groups without new players to do content without nerfed difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

You have got to be kidding me. The MSQ instances are already dirt easy and I only just started playing in May. No trouble whatsoever.

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Still there are going to be nerfs. *shrug*

then complain when the flood of incompetent players come about who never had to dodge properly, or attempt more than a 1-2-3 rotation because the game coddled them. afterwards proceed to ask for permanent nerfs for everyone due to mediocre players

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

then complain when the flood of incompetent players come about who never had to dodge properly, or attempt more than a 1-2-3 rotation because the game coddled them. afterwards proceed to ask for permanent nerfs for everyone due to mediocre players

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If you haven't noticed these players are already here.

My point was instead of nerfing content for good, we could nerf it only for the main part of player base that has problems with it. I am not asking for more nerfs, I am asking for the planned nerfs to be appropriately focused.

And what, exactly, is 'appropriately focused'? I mean, this feels alot like the 'hardcore raider' argument about 'new' players. "Get your story now, come back to farm/do Roulette when you get good." Seriously, that's the only way I can read this idea where it makes sense. "Don't nerf old content, just add a 'theme park ride' mode for players new to the content." If they didn't nerf old content noone would want to run it. I remember in the months before they first nerfed Pharos Sirius where healers and tanks would Leave as soon as they heard the music because it could be that hard if you didn't have the right party set-up. Up until they removed the flies you could still wipe to Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep (those flies loved, absolutely loved healers). The 'bad' players are here already, yes, but if everything gave them a 'free ride' the first time through then there's no telling how many 'bad' players there'd be.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

If you haven't noticed these players are already here.

My point was instead of nerfing content for good, we could nerf it only for the main part of player base that has problems with it. I am not asking for more nerfs, I am asking for the planned nerfs to be appropriately focused.

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no. i can not agree to making things easier because people cant figure it out or dont care to. i personally believe pointing a finger at faults goes a lot further in this game than a pat on the back and a hand to hold when people cant get it together. the leveling dungeons have often been a lesson of sorts, each one teaching something new to better your own skill and knowledge of your class, even if its something minuscule, the lesson is always there. what you're proposing is to let bads be bads and continue on merrily with a job well done and a pat on the back. people need to start learning, bettering themselves, not be given a free pass.

i find it irritating being the healer, switching to clerics just in time for the melee to stand in the aoe, coming near death. being the dps who has to push harder because some mage wants to spam umbral skills. i feel bad when i have to let someone die because i just dont have the mp to keep them alive the whole fight.

so, no to holding hands and making content more forgivable than it already is

Would really just rather have these instances not only be complete-able but also play as they were originally intended to play on their first run (back when our gear was at an appropriate level for it). Imo the gaming sense of completion should come hand in hand with the story progress. 'Story now, get gud later' just doesn't make sense to me.

Minimum Item-Level Sync by default.
- Perhaps provide small combat hints and 5-10% echo per wipe on boss encounters, removed after completing said boss.
- Increase bonus rewards based on the amount of ilvl synced down after first adjusting for physical level, and slightly raise base rewards.


At that point we may still be teaching fights, but we're far less likely to be kicking people for watching cutscenes when those cutscenes take a much smaller portion of the time. The average time to complete an MSQ roulette will have increased, but so too will its rewards, and quite likely its entertainment value.

Screw it let's just make the game into a movie and I'll hold a controller while watching it.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Screw it let's just make the game into a movie and I'll hold a controller while watching it.

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It's called Youtube.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

It's called Youtube.

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"BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO USE A 3RD PARTY BECAUSE I PAID A SUB FOR THIS YOU ELITIST SWINE"

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Perhaps provide small combat hints.

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I'm reminded of Steps of Faith where NPCs tell you exactly what to do every step of the way.
Yet look how much that fight got nerfed. May the memories of the better times rest in peace.

Y'know what SE should do? Make the solo only MSQ/Job boss fights allow a party (buffing the mobs based on how many people join you).
That's all, though. Treating new players like babies (especially if the new players are pretty damn good) isn't a good idea.

The problem with Steps of Faith wasn't so much 'bad' players as it was players that felt they could brute force the thing with their 'full set max iL' gear (you know, 'hardcore raiders'). They didn't want to slow down and help with mechanics and adds, even though player damage to Vishap, even now, is still a small percentage of the total damage capable against him. And after the inevitable wipe from ignore mechanics and adds these players didn't want to acknowledge that they were the ones in the wrong, claiming it was clearly the fault of the healer or tank or DD that wasn't attacking Vishap instead of, you know, manning a cannon or firing a snare or dragonator or, gasp, killing an add. Steps of Faith was a cake walk if people coordinated enough to make sure mechanics were at least given lip service and adds killed in a reasonable amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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sorry i struggle to believe raiders were to blame. raiders are unlikely to allow msq to beat them and would be more likely to problem solve than people whom before only ever experienced mechanics like dodge this, heal that and in the rare case... click on this.
then again, my fcob static was capable of brute forcing it before it got nerfed. still, i wouldnt just put blame on hard core raiders, they get enough crap from the community as is