Is the U-Tribe at the Forgotten Springs an outlier with Nunh Leadership?

In the miqo'te naming convention thread, it's states that "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

However, the one miqo'te tribe we ever really get to run into in the game is the U-Tribe from the Forgotten Springs which is very obviously run by a nunh leader. In addition to that, most of the quests surrounding the U-Tribe make it sound like it's just a normal thing for Nunh to be leaders. For example the quest given by U'khuba Tia's quests discuss the future of the tribe as though the nunh has significant impact on the direction it will go in. U'odh Nunh's quest "What's it to U" straight up says that the word of the nunh is law.

This is a pretty big contradiction. Is he just an outlier because he defeated Titan and thus was seen as being so badass that they let him become leader?

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Originally Posted by Lurial

This is a pretty big contradiction. Is he just an outlier because he defeated Titan and thus was seen as being so badass that they let him become leader?

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That probably has something to do with it.

Seeker Miqo'te and lore consistency are oil and water. You learn to get used to it.

I noticed this spreading from Balmung to Tumblr to Twitter, so I pulled my notes just in case it came here next (lol).

Indeed - U'odh is both the nunh of the U and the leader of the U. He explicitly says that his word is law, and the two who seek to unseat him both say they intend to lead. This is about more than the status of breeding males to them, obviously. The U also don't seem to have multiple nunhs at the moment since they keep referring to the nunh, not a nunh. I can't answer whether or not the U are outliers, but based on the "few nunhs ever become leaders" quote in the naming conventions, I'm guessing it's more likely than not. But back to U'odh.

I think this might be about the culture of the Drake tribe in general - the U respect strength above all else. You can see, I'm sure, where this overlaps with the tradition of how one becomes a nunh - defeating their predecessor. And this guy beat Titan.

Who can lead without respect? How do you compete for respect with the nunh when respect is decided by strength?

For the U, this is not so odd, imho.

Imagine a tribe where the highest virtue was intelligence or compassion or experience or age.
The nunh of that tribe would not be as likely to end up leading as he would be with the U, I would think.

Good point- Thanks Anonymoose! (And yeah, I slapped this question up here because of the raging Tumblr debate. :V)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

And this guy beat Titan.

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And Leviathan.

And was able to put up with Brayflox's shenanigans the entire time on both fights. Hell, if that alone doesn't get you "leader" status, nothing will. :P

wow, are you hating on Brayflox? that's unthinkable

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Imagine a tribe where the highest virtue was intelligence or compassion or experience or age.

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I'm not sure experience or age is a possible value for determining a Nunh. It seems clear that there's a weakness in the Y chromosome of seekers, which is why ten females are born for every male. The purpose of the entire Nunh / Tia arrangement is to make sure that the best genes possible are passed on. By the time one accumulates a significant amount of experience / age, chromosomal damage has begun to accumulate... the would-be nunh is past the age at which his genetic material is optimal. Yes, it's possible for older males to sire children, but the incidence of birth defects among children with older fathers is higher. If you're looking for the best genetic combinations, you choose young adults for breeding.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

I'm not sure experience or age is a possible value for determining a Nunh.

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To clarify - in that hypothetical, the values in question were for determining who might be more likely to become the tribe's leader, not its nunh. The naming conventions imply that they are rarely the same person. Specifically in the case of the U, their valued traits and the deciding factors for who is likely to become nunh overlap, and their leader and nunh ended up the same person. Some saw this as a possible contradiction, so to show how this might be normal for the U while still not being necessarily normal across the board for all tribes (as the naming conventions imply), I was giving examples of possible cultural values for a leader whereby they and the deciding factors of a nunh would not overlap. In such a case, the nunh would still be decided by strength and power and skill and all that jazz, but that wouldn't immediately make him leader based on the tribe not valuing those traits as highly as the aforemented hypotheticals.

Hells, to take it to an extreme, we only have concrete information that the Seekers' family trees are patriarchal.
It might be possible that, under the right circumstances, a Seeker tribe's leader could be a woman (definitely not a nunh candidate).

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Originally Posted by Rocl

wow, are you hating on Brayflox? that's unthinkable

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Well when one of the most imfamour dungeons on the game's history had your name on it...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Hells, to take it to an extreme, we only have concrete information that the Seekers' family trees are patriarchal.
It might be possible that, under the right circumstances, a Seeker tribe's leader could be a woman (definitely not a nunh candidate).

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I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Well when one of the most imfamour dungeons on the game's history had your name on it...

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To be fair, the name of that dungeon pretty much means "Brayflox's Home"

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I thought, since it was hinted that nunh's usually aren't leaders, and there are only really a few men in the tribe to begin with, that a woman would be a tribe leader more often then anyway (since there are more of them around).

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To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

I also felt that seekers were supposedly patriarch. There are a couple ways I could think of where it would be logical for a non-breeder patriarchal structure: a council of elders past breeding age, or a requirement that the leaders be eunuchs.

The lore on the subject seems somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, the lore says that Nunh does not equate to leadership, but the lore also says that one option to become Nunh is to start a new tribe. Doesn't starting a tribe imply being the leader? Although it would offer another reasons why new tribes fail. Attempting to start a tribe with the intention of being vice president (if even that) seems doomed to fail.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it could just be that the wording is awkward. Maybe what they meant to say was that circle of leadership (or sole leader) is smaller than the pool of Nunhs so, "very few Nunh ever become leaders."

My understanding from the lore page is that a nunh of a tribe is similar to the empress consort of China's Emperors. They are given high status as the breeder of 'the next worthy generation', yet easily displaced when another male appears with a greater breeding material.

However, seeing as the Sunseekers don't seem to be placing much value into say intelligence, wit, compassion or long age, it leaves the more physical attributes as the key 'qualities' to be looking out for. That means aesthetics, and more than likely not, combat ability and strength. That means in a sense, the 'nunh' of a tribe is not necessarily a step below or above the current leader of the tribe, but acting as a partner/vice-leader, similar to say the Empress Dowagers of Ancient China.

And similar to the empress consorts, there will occasionally be the one nunh that is capable of leading and controlling a tribe...

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Originally Posted by ExKage

To be honest, with the use of explicitly stating that "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father," I felt that the Seekers are probably more likely to be a patriarchal society in their family trees and maybe even leadership with the -tia- as leader while the nunh is well.. the breeding stock.

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It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

It can't even be said that one causes the other in terms of how we currently understand sociology. Sri-Lanka is an example of a country with matriarchal heritage and a patriarchal society. This is despite the fact that social structure and religion have enforced a very strong patriarchal hierarchy. Birthright and heritage however are still firmly matrilineal. This discrepancy has led to some very urgent Human Rights abuses, but that's a little beyond the scope of the topic.

On the other hand, the Ottoman emperors had a very interesting patriarchal structure. The sultans never married but rather adopted children who they recognized as heirs. He kept a harem and the biological father of those children was usually the sultan's, but heritage of power was decided solely by combat. The acknowledged children would literally kill each other for the throne and the coronation of a new sultan (nunh) was frequently preceded by a parade of weeping women and child-sized coffins. It should be said that the women were very well educated (as a prerequisite to serve the King's harem and become dowager queen) though and the dowager queens actually ruled the country while the sultan managed the army and was usually always in the field of battle (so they rarely practiced or created laws, oversaw government institutions, or attended court).

Another societal division is made for certain ethnic groups in the Balkans, which made it possible for woman to have their heritage forcibly taken. That's why the "Ethnic cleansing" in the Bosnian War was so horrific and spurred discussion of feminist rights. It was literally genocide by rape. Warfare between Seeker tribes would likely involve something like this as a way to eradicate the other side too, unless they have something like the Geneva War Conventions that expressly outlaws this.

It's an interesting topic and some inspiration to talk about if your Miqo'te is not particularly enamored with their tribe and might explain why some Miqo'te choose the adventuring life.

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Originally Posted by Anova

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

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The moogle mail questline involving the Lihzeh sisters and the Coeurlclaw King does back up SE's claim that Keepers do hold their value in a matriarchal society. The quest (coupled with a few sidequests and FATEs) even goes about explaining why (male Keeper genetics makes them better at being their own man rather than fathers/husbands, and really only stick around for breeding to keep family lines alive before leaving to wander again) and that what the King is doing violates everything Keepers stand for and threatens tribe and inter-tribal stability.

Now it's not a matriarchal society in which women force it though, more of one born out of "understanding" for how males work genetically. Women KNOW males are prone to certain traits and don't blame them for it, but rather, mold life around it to accommodate them in some way. Males get their freedoms while women run the tribes, raise the kids, set the laws, hunt for food, and negotiate trades with other tribes.

That being said, it doesn't explicitly say anything about Seeker tribes, so you may be correct in that aspect. But for now, we have a pretty good foothold on Keeper lore.

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Originally Posted by Velox

The moogle mail questline involving the Lihzeh sisters and the Coeurlclaw King does back up SE's claim that Keepers do hold their value in a matriarchal society.

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Hmm, forgot that little side quest, but you're right. I should review the lore cutscenes for that. I'm a little foggy on it.

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Originally Posted by Anova

It's left intentionally ambiguous. Also, they very explicitly specify patriarchal heritage for Seekers and matriarchal heritage for Keepers. This does not automatically equate to a patriarchal and matriarchal society, so we are free to speculate on what it might be and what is common.

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Except, that is the exact quote from the naming conventions. While its support is more about heritage, the exact quote says society.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

Except, that is the exact quote from the naming conventions. While its support is more about heritage, the exact quote says society.

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To be fair, that's not much of a distinction for the Keepers of the Moon. The vast majority of their "societies" are made up of one to three families.
If a family is matriarchal, that doesn't leave much room for exceptions at the societal level. Not that this clarifies anything about the Seekers, lol.

I wish I had more to contribute, but it seems equally likely to me [A] that patriarchal families might go hand in hand with patriarchal society as far as the information we have goes and [B] that the family trees being based on strength and nunhs leaves plenty of room for leadership to be more nuanced and inclusive.

I can't make much of a guess on whether leadership often defers to Tias or is a mixed bag of Tias, Nunhs, and perhaps even women by tribe, but I can guess that if your daily responsibilities include being studded out to miqo'te by the score, most days you'd struggle to manage the bedroom door, never mind a civil office. ("You might make it to the door, but when you squeeze the handle, you'll pass out." - Lewis Black)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I can't make much of a guess on whether leadership often defers to Tias or is a mixed bag of Tias, Nunhs, and perhaps even women by tribe, but I can guess that if your daily responsibilities include being studding out to miqo'te by the score, most days you'd struggle to manage a door handle without fainting, never mind a civil office.

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One background NPC in Forgotten Springs remarks that U'odh cares more about politics than his "duty." My guess is that nunhs are typically prohibited from activities that keep them from their primary function, and U'odh is merely an exception.

He's still the only NPC nunh in the entire game, though, so I suppose the simplest explanation is that merely being available for interaction with PCs makes a male Miqo'te an exception, so we can't actually treat any of them as accurate illustrations of established lore.

tl;dr, most nunhs are too busy shagging to hand out quests and lore tidbits.

The way I see it, if the U tribe is a "Might is Right" society, regardless of patriarchal or matriarchal heritage, it only makes since that some one who had killed TWO GODS would be considered the best leader candidate but that in and of it's self ONLY works in a might based society.

If any other tribe where the arts of war (A Male Based Profession anyway historically) were shunned and looked down on as "Vulgar Qualities" then the war like breeding males would be almost guaranteed to be bared from leadership. Not to mention when you're THE Breeding Male then your death results in your killer replacing you.

So it's possible most wouldn't live long at all because by the time they got "Old" (30-40ish in human year) then a younger male in his biological peek would challenge you and (most likely) win the breeding spot for him self. But out friend U'odh has killed TWO GODS so the amount of people brave (or stupid) enough to fight him are few and far between and the few that do may infact end up losing because of his superior combat experience.

This occasionally happens in the wilds of Earth as well when a particular Male is capable of continuously winning long after their physical prime and only after that strength finally gives out are they usurped.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

If any other tribe where the arts of war (A Male Based Profession anyway historically) were shunned and looked down on as "Vulgar Qualities" then the war like breeding males would be almost guaranteed to be bared from leadership. Not to mention when you're THE Breeding Male then your death results in your killer replacing you.

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In Earth history, perhaps, but not in Miqo'te history. Remember that in FFXI the Mithra didn't even have males available as a character choice, and the same was true in FFXIV 1.0. It wasn't until the calamity came and disturbed things that male Miqo'te started being seen outside their home villages. Seekers have always produced more females than males, and one way this imbalance was dealt with was that many of the women of the tribe went out and performed roles that other societies might have given to males, such as adventuring.

Given that social dynamic, it would make a lot of sense if most Seeker leaders were female, as they'd be the ones who had experience with the world outside the village. In the case of the U, there's hints of a leader female (one of the Miqo'te standing over the drake corpses says that only one of the other women can kill so many large drakes), but putting another NPC in the village just to uphold the lore is a questionable use of resources. Plus, there's the factor other people have already mentioned... U'odh has in fact been out in the world, and participated in the defeat of two primals.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

In Earth history, perhaps, but not in Miqo'te history. Remember that in FFXI the Mithra didn't even have males available as a character choice, and the same was true in FFXIV 1.0. It wasn't until the calamity came and disturbed things that male Miqo'te started being seen outside their home villages.

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That's more of a developer convenience than an actual lore point, I believe. It's much like how female Roegadyn and Highlanders have always existed and done stuff, and most even have backstories that place them in events even before the Calamity. Male Miqo'te are simply the only ones who maintained a lore-based excuse for their relative scarcity moving into 2.0, and that's mostly due to the great strides taken in the lore to enforce the Miqo'te as a seemingly all-female catgirl race to begin with.

If both models existed to begin with, I suppose they would have ended up like the Aurin in WildStar, a matriarchal society with mostly flipped gender roles that seems to be female-only from the promotional materials, but where in-game NPC gender distribution is actually relatively equal. (Unsurprisingly, most Aurin PCs at launch were male.)