From what I've seen others post, it seems Paladins are around 10% lower single target DPS than DRK and 20% lower than WAR (AoE is probably a much wider gap). Paladin is supposed to bring increased defensive capabilities in exchange for lower damage. Comparing to WAR is apples and oranges, but DRK is apples to apples as they are very similar.
Compared to DRK, PLD has:
- A physical shield, which people are saying is good for 3-5% on average.
- Shelltron
- 10% higher mitigation in Sentinel than DRK's equivalent (10s with 180s cooldown).
- Hallowed Ground is a lot better than Living Dead (although it is 420s vs 300s cooldown).
- Stoneskin and Clemency, which people don't seem to think highly of (I don't have Clemency yet on PLD myself, so I can't say much for myself).
All-in-all, this doesn't really feel like 10% overall better defensive capabilities than DRK. It feels closer to 5% IMO, less if you put more weight on a magic based scenario like A4S. I wonder if the problem isn't that defensive tank is a useless proposition, but that PLD simply isn't as much better at defense as it is inferior at damage? Most of the discussion has been purely on DPS, not on defensive capabilities.
My question is: If PLD had an across the fight average 10% better defensive capabilities than DRK, would it then be viable in Savage?
Say hypothetically they increased the damage reduction in Shield Oath to 25% (for damage taken, not dealt). Is increasing defensive capabilities a viable alternative to increasing DPS to bring balance? (Note: I am not saying SE should buff Shield Oath, just throwing it out as a hypothetical scenario.)
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09-27-2015, 01:02 AMgiantslayerWould PLD be viable if its mitigation was as superior to DRK as its DPS is inferior?
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09-27-2015, 01:10 AMKaisersoke
its dps isnt THAT much lower than DRK, and since a4s caters to magic damage, its doubtful. drk would still have dark mind up for every tank buster so, drk would still be the go to. its just a matter of how ridiculously poorly designed drk and a4s are. square is pretty much drumming up artificial interest in drk because of this
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09-27-2015, 01:15 AMMyrhn
The thing is PLD is more of a physical defence tank and DRK is a magical defence tank and so far in HW most of the boss fight do more magical damage than phisical damage.
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09-27-2015, 01:28 AMShining_Tiger_Excalibur
I'm actually making an incredibly detailed thread about what Paladin lacks, at least in my opinion, and how the issue can be resolved. You'll find the thread here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-happens-when..... I only ask that you be patient and understanding since in order to accurately describe both the problem and a proposed solution it will take time.
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09-27-2015, 01:28 AMKaisersoke
Id also like to add, that square added all these ridiculous dps checks and unforgiving mechanics in leiu of actual difficult bosses, so making paladins shield oath more tanky when they spend the majority of their time in sword for dps checks, would make little to no impact on how viable paladin is. the problem with paladin is solely because of how square designed savage.
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09-27-2015, 01:50 AMgiantslayer
I haven't played A4S so I don't quite know how it works. Are the DPS checks in non-damage phases where everyone, including the healers, can go all-out DPS, or is there significant incoming damage to be mitigated/healed? If incoming damage is negligible during the DPS checks, then increasing mitigation is useless. If more defense meant the healers could DPS more, then that could help the party meet the check. I was kind of assuming it was the latter with incoming damage when I wrote this thread.
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09-27-2015, 01:54 AMOPneedNerfs
Why is comparing PLD to DRK "apples to apples" while PLD to WAR is "apples to oranges"?
Did WAR become a DPS class overnight? -
09-27-2015, 01:59 AMValkyrie-Amber
Fact is pld should not be superior to drk in magical defense but should be equal if they wont buff plds dps they can at least make us more defensive. Then give us a tp regen sill like drks and wars have or just give us access to lancer skills so we can have invigorate and blood for blood lol well actually.
SE quick fix for pld give us access to lancer cross class skills though if pld had blood for blood... well wars would no longer be king of tanks in regards of dps so then they would need buffs... Give all 3 tanks access to lancer cross class skills I say.
Also Have SE not heard of Paladins and holy shields from many other games? -
09-27-2015, 02:12 AMgiantslayerDRK and PLD both have 20% damage reduction in tank stance and DRK has virtually identical equivalents to PLD's two main defensive cooldowns, Rampart and Sentinel.Quote:
Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs
WAR on the other hand has more things based on self-HP recovery instead of damage mitigation cooldowns. It is not so straight forward to compare defensive capabilities. -
09-27-2015, 02:32 AMRapBreonWhat do you mean overnight?Quote:
Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs
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09-27-2015, 03:06 AMGooner_iBluAirJGR
I don't think their defense needs to be higher per say but if some of their utility-based cooldowns were more functional in top-end content I think they'd be more desirable.
examples:
Cover — Sword Oath effect: Increases target allies Attack Power by X%
Divine Veil — Creates a barrier that absorbs damage equal to 20% of your Maximum HP. Nearby allies are Shielded for 10% of your maximum HP
Clemency — 1.5s cast time
Stuff like that, I think, would make Paladin more desired.
#JustIdeas #BeNice #Opinions -
09-27-2015, 03:30 AMLadon
Making Paladins a viable option to DRKs isn't a solution. All this is going to do is displace DRKs while more and more groups start looking at Warrior-Warrior as the most viable option.
Tank balance is broken until a PLD-DRK group is just as effective as a WAR-Whatever group. -
09-27-2015, 03:42 AMDhexBetter defense doesn't solve any issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by giantslayer
If every tank can mitigate sufficiently such that they survive tank buster/heavy damage within an acceptable margin the then it comes down to their auxiliary functions within the party; DPS, Status Debuff, & Buffs.
Warrior can mitigate every tank buster; brings top DPS, a 10% damage debuff, and a Slashing buff.
Dark Knight can mitigate every tank buster; brings mid-line DPS, a magic debuff, and a 10% damage debuff when they can Parry & Reprisal.
Paladin can mitigate every tank buster; brings lowest DPS, a physical debuff, and can Block physical attacks occasionally.
If you designed Paladin to "mitigate more" you're implying encounter design where one or more of the other tanks could not survive, or could not survive with an acceptable margin. You'd simply have offset the problem - the problem is WAR - PLD - DRK are not balanced in their auxiliary functions - the FFXIV meta is damage & utility. More mitigation isn't really going to help anyone but bad healers with bad timing or insufficient gear.
Quote:
Tanks do this; Big hit - Use thingy to reduce Big hit! This is what all 3 tanks already do effectively. If they couldn't do this they wouldn't be tanks. Adding gimmicks to "Use thingy" does not inherently change this outside of making it require procs and we all already hate RNG (Parry Block Reprisal Shield Swipe say hallo). Dark Knight uses the thingy and the other thingy, Warrior uses the thingy and expends the stack thingy, Paladin uses the thingy maybe uses the stoneskin thingy, and has a useless heal thingy that gets interrupted mostly.
Auxiliary functions of these tanks become; Warrior does dps - buffs tank(s) & Ninja damage - reduces raid wide damage taken, Dark Knight does dps - reduces magic damage taken (if you don't have a Monk) and reduces raid wide damage taken if it parries (force that main-tank role on ya), Paladin does less dps - reduces physical damage taken anddd it's extra mitigation is mostly hiding behind a shield (again force that main-tank role).
Why is that ^ an issue - Paladin and Dark Knight are always second fiddle (or at least need to be the one to be getting hit in the face) to Warrior when it comes to a raid. Always. Didn't bring a Warrior? Why? Go get a Warrior. Put your Warrior in the OT slot and enjoy having more damage, and more mitigation. Do it! Do it all the time - every time because DRK and PLD aren't good at off-tank roles because they need to get hit in the face for their shiny extras to work.
Hell even if Cover sucked less it'd need to also allow you to block Covered damage so you could use your other junk - like Shield Swipe since you don't have a TP factory in your butt...
Like Warrior.
And even then - DRK MT with a WAR OT would be better unless the content suddenly was pulling gimmicks like Bahamut's Ahk Morn dookie-dumper followed by Nael's back-scratch attack or whatever.
It's really a balance issue between WAR vs. PLD/DRK; WAR always gets a slot because it reduces both types of damage, and increases it's own damage, and the overall raid damage potential. Oh and it does the most damage too.
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09-27-2015, 04:31 AMSyzygian
WAR is not extremely far ahead of DRK in DPS unless they are both out of their tanking stance. A Grit DRK that is being provided the slashing debuff can actually outDPS a Defiance WAR.
All of the following assumes the slashing debuff is up:
MT DPS= DRK>WAR>>>>>>>PLD
OT DPS= WAR>>>>DRK>>>>PLD
PLD currently has no excess fluff damage (not counting passives or things that are kept on 100% uptime like Maim, Darkside, and Fight or Flight which are there mostly to mitigate the damage penalties of the tanking stance) that is present regardless of their stance. WAR has the extremely powerful Berserk and Internal Release, DRK has a whopping 6 oGCDs that provide roughly 2.5K worth of free potency per minute in between their combos. PLD has only two oGCDs, and offensive cooldown that is actually *worse* than Darkside and Maim by themselves regardless of stance, and SwO only equals out to full BW uptime on DRK or the passive buffs of Deliverance. So basically a PLD OT at their highest DPS is only doing about as much damage as a DRK that is not using Plunge/Low Blow/Salted Earth/Carve/Dark Passenger or a WAR that is not using Berserk or Internal Release. -
09-27-2015, 05:09 AMgiantslayerSo if I understand what you wrote, the issue is not so much DRK being better than PLD but WAR being much better than both DRK and PLD?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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09-27-2015, 05:37 AMDiscRage of Halone alone is roughly 10% mitigation against physical attacks, which account for the large majority of damage tanks take in raids. PLD can also go through the first phase of A3S without direct cures with proper use of Clemency & mitigation abilities. I would say that attacks should not be able to interrupt Clemency, it also should not prevent blocks. Neither DRK nor WAR has to put up with that garbage on their self-heals while putting out more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by giantslayer
You're making the mistake of assuming Blood Weapon makes up for Grit, it doesn't. It offers 5% more bonus than FoF on average. Sword Oath accounts for just over 1400 potency per minute from auto-attack bonuses alone. Both DRK & PLD are losing roughly 23% damage by being in tank stance. The total potency difference between DRK & PLD outside of tank stance comes out to around 1000 potency per minute after counting buffs, assuming no Clemency. OPs guess of 10% less damage output from PLD was fairly accurate, in exchange it takes roughly 10% less damage. In theory this should allow PLD to use SwOath more than DRK can drop Grit, but Royal Authority & Goring Blade were designed to fit the OT slot PLD will never get, so they can't hold hate in SwOath while maximizing damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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09-27-2015, 09:36 AMDhexPrecisely; Paladin and Dark Knight both rely on being the primary target for their benefits to count; both lack TP utilities, both tool-sets require that they be attacked - Reprisal and Block are useless when you're not being attacked. Warrior's tools allow it to buff slashing damage, debuff damage, and it has an actual damage stance that puts out more damage while off-tanking. Dark Knight is close but it's also benefiting from content that plays to it's strengths. Paladin does the least damage of the three - and brings no meaningful debuffs when tank-buster & raid-wide damage is primarily magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by giantslayer
Paladin and Dark Knight need to be balanced in comparison to Warrior such that WAR/DRK or DRK/PLD or PLD/WAR all work equally effectively with any of the three tanks in both the off & primary tanking slots respectively.
Edit:
Why though Dhex!? Because otherwise Dark Knight and Paladin become "flavor of content" tanks that come and go depending on what Square implements next. Warrior is guaranteed a spot because of it's damage and utility. -
09-29-2015, 04:25 PMCabalabob
Unless it's so much more defensive that it can survive an enrage and also keep its party alive through it, no the extra defence will not make up for the lower offensive capabilities.
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09-29-2015, 05:52 PMFreyyyhttp://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/me...13_700wa_0.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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09-29-2015, 09:33 PMIsiusI have to agree with this statement. I would love to see PLD/DRK as a valid group comp to PLD/WAR, DRK/WAR, since my buddy likes playing his DRK, and I like playing my PLD. But SE basically made both PLD/DRK into mts. Both tanks want to take advantage of thier abilities/traits. PLD - proc blocks/shield swipes DRK - MP regen from getting hit/reprisal a move that requires you to parry a attack first. As a PLD player I really do not care if I mt/ot. I got my T9 clear by going smn for added dps while my co-tank WAR soloed tanked the fight, and again I let my co-tank be mt through out my time in fcob. I don't really care if I mt or ot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
SE really needs to make both PLD/DRK more of a valid choice to mt or ot since there are 3 tanks now with only 2 tank slots. Should WAR be king of the ot spot in HW, no. Maybe WAR does deserve a nerf afterall as some are calling for now. No class should be able to do higher dps versus it's counterparts, while also bringing utility that also increases groups dps even farther, especially with the way endgame content is currently designed. All that does is making WAR a clear-cut REQUIRED tank pick, and those trying to do Savage without one is kinda crazy, or everyone is just way overgeared for the encounter so it doesn't matter anymore.
I personally feel all tanks need some sort adjustments, and not just PLD anymore. -
09-30-2015, 12:27 AMStarkbeaumontnot sure what you do, but sword oath does a lot for pld's dps. as OT all 3 tanks seem to come out even (with slashing debuff) when I tested it. at least for the time TP is fine. unfortunately as MT PLD is terrible at doing dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Giving PLD a superior mitigation compared to the other tanks, would only work if that gives healers enough room to do more dmg, otherwise ppl will always go for the more effective (faster) way, even if it means tanks taking slightly more dmg -
09-30-2015, 12:35 AMFaeonPeople will always go for the faster most effective way, more dps means less chance of enrage. That is if you want to be cutting edge and keep up with current content, when the set gear ilvl is meant to be higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont
All depends on play style of group, maybe your one of the lucky ones and the group don't mind waiting a month or two, until they have the gear they require to-do the content. But if you want tobe the top, then I am sorry, then its all about bring the what is needed and is efficient and will benefit the group. -
09-30-2015, 12:59 AMExodus_Kenpachi
Utility > Mitigation. DPS is a utility that benifits the entire raid while personal mitigation might allow for slightly higher healer DPS, the amount of mitigation PLD would need to make a difference would be tremendous.
The entire tanking meta in FF14 revolves around scripted burst damage. All tanks have been given the ability to survive all encounters so what we have left on the table is DPS and utility (STR down, INT down, Slash down).
Buffing PLD personal defense would do little to alleviate its issues. Now if PLD was given more meaningful raidwide mitigation like Storms Path coupled with STR down then the mitigation might breach levels that would allow for increased raid DPS.
At the end of the day most parties (and tanks) are going to run with the minimum VIT and mitigation needed to survive while pumping out the maximum DPS. Whatever is the most efficient way of achieving this will be what you routinely see in party compositions. -
09-30-2015, 01:27 AMCynric
I agree that the problem comes from warrior being guaranteed the OT spot.If a DRK Ot's they don't get reprisal,(if the boss is purely magical they don't get it either) the same is true of PLD and shield swipe. Shield swipe isn't as useful as reprisal. But neither DRK/PLD toolkit comes close to WAR save for hallowed ground which is on a huge CD anyway. Shelltron isn't that great, Living dead is useless. Clemency has it's moments, Delirium's debuff is useless if your team uses a MNK, you still do it for damage but the utility isn't really there.
Dark Knight(aside from living dead) and Paladin both do what they're supposed to. But Warrior does it all, they bring raid DPS,personal DPS, general mitigation,AoE threat and DPS,holmgang is much better than living dead ,not as much of a super CD as hallowed ground but usable far more often than both. They get guaranteed an OT spot and can MT as well. Neither DRK or PLD can compete with WAR for OT, but WAR can compete for MT and OT.
Either WAR needs to be nerfed, or PLD/DRK needs to be brought in line with WAR. There's no excuse for PLD and DRK to have skills that are for the most part useless.
Giving Paladin(Dark Knight) extra mitigation wouldn't fix anything really since the imbalance lies with warrior and the design of the content. -
09-30-2015, 02:31 AMNektulos-Tuor
Dark Knight and Paladin Mitigation needs to work for everything or its simply bad game design. The "specialized" defense thing was a cool idea but it needs to be changed. Otherwise you will see War-War.
Paladins/DRKs in general need buffs to be brought up in line. Warrior however is fine, and actually tuned well as a tank. However that is due to the much love they got for their class. Whoever designed the Warrior is a good developer.
Dark Knight's need to be more about lifetaps and blood shields.
Paladin's block needs to work on magic as well. Just like in the lore of the game. -
09-30-2015, 09:30 AMSyzygianI dunno what you do but a DRK that is being matched in DPS outside of tank stance by a PLD is bad and a WAR that is being matched by either outside of tank stance is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont
I outlined this earlier but i guess it bears repeating, in terms of DPS cooldowns, PLD simply doesn't measure up to WAR or DRK. Its in the numbers.
WAR has +50% attack power every 90s, Internal Release, Maim mitigates tank stance penalty.
DRK has 6 oGCDs totaling 2.4-2.5 potency every minute, Darkside mitigates tank stance penalty.
PLD has 2 oGCDs and +30% damage every 90s. Nothing mitigating tank stance penalty.
PLDs potencies are also, across the board, lower than DRK and WAR. There's no way a PLD in equivalent gear and SwO is matching a DRK out of Grit or a WAR in Defiance.
Wat? I said Darkside mitigates its tank stance penalty (not completely, but it does). Blood Weapon is an out-of-Grit-only cooldown and in addition to the attack speed (which benefits AAs as well as the GCD) it generally generates more MP than Blood Price which leads to more consistent DA usage. The extra damage is equivalent to the SwO autos and +5% Deliverance w/crit Stacks. The discrepancy with PLD is outside of that, in their lack of general offensive abilities that can be used -regardless- of stance, and lower potencies. But if anything, you misunderstood, I was comparing BW to SwO and Deliverance, since DRK does not have an OT stance, anymore than WAR had one in 2.0, it just had Maim uptime with Defiance off (like DRK has Darkside with Grit off). Instead of a stance it has a CD, you could say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
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09-30-2015, 09:56 AMNektulos-TuorNothing mitigates a penalty. It will always be -20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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09-30-2015, 10:00 AMFreyyyI have to agree with this. You have Maim and Darkside even when out of tanking stance, so the penalty is still 20% (25% for WAR).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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09-30-2015, 12:50 PMDiscMeant to type Darkside, my bad. And no, it does not mitigate the penalty on grit in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Code:Assume Base = everything excluding Sh/SwOath, Grit, Darkside, Bloodweapon, Defiance, & Deliverance
PLD Base = Roughly 7947 potency
PLD SwOath = Base+1440 potency; Roughly 18% damage increase over Base, or 118% of Base as Max.
PLD ShOath = 80% of Base damage, a 20% loss. Or [1-(0.80(ShOath))/1.18(Max))]*100 = 32.2%
Therefore Shield Oath is a 32.2% DPS loss compared to PLDs maximum damage in SwOath.
DRK Base = 1
Darkside = 1*1.15*1.0375(Bloodweapon); A roughly 19% increase over Base, or 119% of Base as Max.(ignoring BW MP bonus)
Darkside+ Grit = 1*1.15*0.80 = 0.92; An 8% decrease from Base or [1-(0.92(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 22.7%
Therefore DRK loses 22.7% of Max DPS by turning Grit on, ignoring Bloodweapon TP/MP bonuses.
No Darkside + Grit = 1*0.8 = 0.8; A 20% decrease from Base or [1-(0.80(Grit)/1.19(Max))]*100 = 32.8%
Therefore DRK loses 32.8% of Max DPS if Darkside drops while Grit is up. Actually more if it's down when certain abilities are off CD.
WAR Base = 1
Deliverance = 1*1.05; A 12.5% increase over Base, or 112.5% of Base as Max.(Crit bonus assumed [(.00+.02+.04+.06+.08+.10)/6)1.5] = 7.5% for simplicity)
Defiance = 1*0.75; A 25% decrease from Base, or [1-(0.75(Defiance)/1.125(Max))]*100 = 33.3%
However Unchained = Base 16.6% of the time.
0.3333(Defiance Loss)*.8334(%time without unchained)+[1-(1(Base)/1.125(Max))]*.1666(time with unchained) = 29.6%
Therefore WAR loses roughly 29.6% of Max DPS if Defiance is up, ignoring the higher potency abilities of Deliverance.
Feel free to correct my math, it's past 3AM for me. The initial poster was on the right track, but holy hell there's so much misinformation going on about tank stances. FoF, Darkside, Berserk, etc do not get to count against tank stance when you have access to them out of tank stance. 1*0.8 & 1000*0.8 are both going to see a 20% loss. Yes this could potentially be offset by ability timing lining up with buffs like Unchained and/or breaks during ability down time. Those variables would be specific to certain fights, and average out in theory. If you would like to simulate 10 minute rotations by fight that might be interesting to see. However, that still will not change the 0.80 modifier on stances.
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10-02-2015, 01:57 PMSyzygianQuote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
No. Please read and comprehend first.
What I'm saying is that yes, its -20% from your top DPS out of tank stance regardless, just like the post details. But as you can see, because PLD has no passive that is up 100% of the time and just has cooldowns its like a WAR with Berserk but no Maim and thus suffers a lot more from going into Shield Oath, almost 10% more. (the 32.8% from Darkside falling off doesn't count because no good DRK ever lets that happen in the middle of tanking something).
WAR loses 25% in Defiance but Maim makes up for 20% of that. DRK loses 20% in Grit but Darkside makes up for 15% of that. PLD loses 20% in Shield Oath but... no that's it. It just loses 20% in Shield Oath. Its like the DRK that let Darkside fall off or the WAR that let Maim fall off. Sure it can pop FoF just like a WAR that doesn't have Maim up can pop Berserk.. This is why PLD DPS isn't stacking up. They don't have that passive that the other two have. They have benefits in their OT stance (like the +5% Deliverance or Blood Weapon) and they have FoF in either stance (like WAR has Berserk in either stance and DRK has 6 oGCDs on short recasts in either stance), but they do NOT have a Maim or a Darkside. Its just missing from their kit.
So when you have a tank that is just straight up missing that, it should be easy to see why I phrased it from the direction I did. I realize nothing -actually- mitigates your tank stance.
What I am saying is that WAR and DRK have abilities that make the "reduces damage dealt by x amount" in their tank stance mostly mitigated i.e. only -5% difference from having nothing up at all. PLD doesn't have this. It loses 20% in Shield Oath and has nothing that directly makes up for most of that that is up 100% of the time. It has nothing that brings it up to -5% from having nothing up at all, at the bare minimum. That's all.
FoF is just a DPS cooldown like Berserk or Blood Weapon, having it up in tank stance just means you're using an offensive CD in tank stance just like WAR can use Beserk in Defiance. Darkside and Maim were clearly by design meant to be a full-time buff and (sort of) offset to the tank stance penalty ON TOP of other offensive CDs or oGCD damaging abilities. If PLD had an ability they could keep 100% uptime on, on top of FoF, which is just a cooldown with a set duration and recast as opposed to something you just have up all the time like a stance, then PLD could probably deal competitive DPS.
Essentially I'm saying the exact same thing as all that math, I'm just pinpointing PLD's problem amongst that math. -
10-02-2015, 02:26 PMVioletteYou must hate good science, because that's how science works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
@disc: Your math is pretty spot on, though how did you decide on sword oath adding 1440 potency? surely it would add (time/wpnattackspeed)*50 potency, no?
On top of that, you have to add a crit scaling modifier for sword oath because given the 50 potency aa's crit independently of the 100 potency, you essentially have (time/wpnattackspeed)*100*(critmodifier)+(time/wpnattackspeed)*100*(critmodifier)
where crit modifier would be equal to (crit rate*crit damage modifier) -
10-02-2015, 02:28 PMSyzygianDid you even read what I said? Go back and try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette
I even edited in an extra line at the end in max-sized text to make sure you understood. -
10-02-2015, 02:43 PMVioletteYou said you were disregarding someone's entire post because they considered a mathematical possibility. And then you edited your post to remove it. You've said this several times, without regard for what they presented. It's clear you're passionate about this game and its development, but your belligerent attitude is making both A) hard to discuss with you and b) hard to take your seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Please try to be more polite and less arrogant in this, I think we would all rather discuss this calmly without someone coming and telling us we're wrong because we're wrong, you're right because you're right and that your view is always the right one. I have learnt a lot on uses of class abilities I wouldn't have considered without their input, but I did that without shouting down everyone who disagreed with me. -
10-02-2015, 03:51 PMDiscWhat you mean is correct, I think, but what you're saying is wrong. In practical application DRK just has a smaller range in it's DPS because it does not have an OT stance. PLD will see massive losses in tank stance because it has an offensive stance, creating a larger range. There's no subtracting 15% from 20% or any of that nonsense, you're factually wrong in saying so. This is why PLDs lack of enmity in SwOath is such a big deal. This is also why PLDs should not see any offensive buffs. You would increase both their minimum & their maximum when their current maximum is fine, but unattainable due to low enmity modifiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
I ignored crit to keep it simple, I only mentioned it on WAR because it's directly tied into their stance. The Sword Oath will vary a little person to person, 1440 is for Hive Shamshir.(60/2.08*50)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette
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10-02-2015, 04:00 PMVioletteWell with this information it's time to build a mathematical model and stat weight the paladin (cool)Quote:
Originally Posted by Disc
But yeah, I only mention crit modifier for sword oath because at 20% crit (which would be a what, 1.5? modifier (base 15% crit chance gives 145% crit damage, 1% cc up = 1% cd up (according to dervy))), that would be an extra approximate 334 potency or so.