What happens when.....

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Table of Contents:
I. Opening Statements.
II. Thread Objective.
III. Job Design Philosophies and Implementation Explanation.
A. Paladin.
B. Warrior.
C. Dark Knight.
IV. Paladin In the Past.
V. Paladin In its Current State.
VI. Paladin Going Forward.
VII. The Potential in a Re-worked Paladin.
VIII. The Proposed Design Philosophy and Lore of a Re-work.
IX. The "Meat and Potatoes" (Ability Implementation) of the Re-work.
A. Irresistible Force.
B. Immovable Object.
C. Concerning Shield Oath and Sword Oath (Protector and Aggressor.)
D. Abilities to be Off-GCD (Global Cooldown) or Enhanced.
X. Thread Conclusion and Closing Statements.
XI Interesting Knowledge-based Links


Let's Begin, Shall We?
I. I'd like to welcome you all to the thread with outstretched arms and opened heart and mind. I urge you to offer your opinions on my statements and reasoning with the same warm and caring embrace that I have shown you. I also ask that you remember that any offensive posts will be met with indifference and be outright ignored, as they have no value or weight concerning the discussions of ladies and gentlemen; if you are met with such aggression know that much like sand held loosely in your hand, it will bare no substance and thus quickly wink out of existence. You just have to remember to let it go. Without further ado, let us continue, fellow adventures!

II. The objective of this thread is multipurpose and will attempt to highlight what I feel are the design philosophies, capabilities, and weaknesses of the job known as "Paladin." The thread will also attempt to compare and contrast Paladin in reference to the jobs known as "Warrior" and "Dark Knight" as it pertains not only to their job philosophies but their abilities as well. The history of Paladin and the reasoning behind its set of skills is a matter that I feel needs to be discussed as well because we need to understand just why we're so underwhelming right now. I believe that with the knowledge of where Paladin has been and where it is currently in terms of abilities and potential will help us better prepare for the direction the Paladin seems to be going; in regards to this statement I will also attempt to share my feelings toward how we may be used in future content. It is only after this information has been shared that I can truly believe that people will understand my reasoning for the most important part of this thread: The Re-work Request for Paladin. I will then describe the proposed design philosophy, lore, ability description and implementation; lastly, in that same topic I will mention any other modifications to some of the skills a Paladin has in its possession and the intention behind these changes. Finally, I will end the tread with my closing statements.

III. Job design philosophy and implementation are the unequivocal reasons why your character/job has identity and uniqueness. It is through both form and function that differences can be seen, which in turn establishes a genuine play style for each job. Admittedly we will inevitably run into what so many fear, termed "homogenization" by many, but is only appropriately and more likely just similarities in how each job achieves similar results in manipulating stats and accomplishing tasks. It is my belief that each job in its respective role should do competitive damage dealt and damage mitigated through use of abilities when compared to other jobs within that role. How they achieve these results can, and should, differ in order to maintain identity and play style. With this basic concept of how each job can have uniqueness, let's take a look at some of the jobs and how they do (or don't do) just that, shall we?

A. Paladin is the most straight forward and traditional tank of the current three. In the simplest of terms it is a "Preparatory Tank" that utilizes its many cooldowns in order to prepare for high incoming damage and maintains sustained DPS. While it has the ability to have slight burst damage in DPS stance, it is not a significant boost without assistance from Ninja or Warrior through slashing resistance down, so it remains slightly above underwhelming. Currently it has no means of overcoming its own weaknesses (low damage and long cast times) even slightly and relies on other jobs to attain maximum potential.

B. Warriors can be very simply described as a job that "does damage to recover from it." They are a "Reactionary Tank" in that they have a few abilities that will reduce incoming damage but rely heavily on recovering from this damage quickly through dealing burst damage and life leeching. A high degree of "mental gymnastics" is required to play a Warrior successfully. This job has few weaknesses and many strengths in that while it may be viewed as "squishy," it overcomes its own weaknesses by reducing all damage in general while maximizing its own damage in order to recover very quickly.

C. Dark Knight currently can not be simply described as it borrows design philosophies from both Paladin and Warrior while maintaining its own identity through MP management. It has some preparatory damage reduction abilities as well as some self-recovery abilities. The difficulty of playing the class is that in order to gain access to its best offensive and defensive cooldowns you are required to intimately know the encounter when it pertains to effective MP management and when to avoid or directly take damage. It overcomes its weaknesses by having outstanding enmity generation, relatively good damage in both tank and DPS stance, and having access to abilities that not only siphon HP but MP as well.


IV. With an "at a glance" description of each tank role on display I will now rather abruptly transition into the design philosophy of Paladin in its past and what I can interpret from its abilities. When you know of the enmity modifiers and potency of a Paladin's skills, sometimes you find yourself asking why they were both lower in comparison to Warrior. In the days of 2.X content Paladin's only damage weaponskills were also its enmity generation skills as well. Quite naturally, in order to prevent enmity trolling, its values were kept lower so that in DPS stance they would not gain aggro accidentally. The skills most important for cross classing were Protect and Stoneskin. Even then it was arguable as to the importance of Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke since as you all know, a Paladin even during 2.X content couldn't deal enough/recover enough damage to benefit from them. Mercy Stroke for the most part is just free damage since the timing required to leech health is nigh impossible to accomplish. For the most part, during 2.X content, a Paladin only had to worry about applying their own stoneskin and applying protect to the party in order to ease healer strain. Cover, quite possibly the most utilized skill in 2.X, could protect its target from gaining debuffs, taking damage, or leaving some form of ground based DoT/Slow puddle. We were given just enough abilities in the form of weaponskills, support skills, and damage skills to maintain balance between not only Warrior but of DPS roles as well. This would not be the case with the upcoming expansion (Heavensward.)

V. Heavensward brought the Paladin many new skills to include a second DoT, a DPS focused combo, two utility abilities (Sheltron is included here because of the pacification ability,) and an "on demand" damage mitigation ability. From this information I can determine that Paladin was beginning to take the shape of a support/utility tank and I was glad for it to be so. While leveling I thoroughly enjoyed using these new skills but as I came closer and closer to level 60 I began to notice where I would have trouble in end-game scenarios. I noticed that as I was leveling, it seemed as though I had trouble keeping aggro against similarly outfitted healers and DPS even though I was in tank stance. I also found that my support abilities were clunky, either requiring activation from an outside source or what I view as an excessively long cast time. I noticed that my "on demand" mitigation utility could be activated from an auto attack that did close to no damage at all. Much to my chagrin, later on I figured out just why I was having so many problems....My enmity modifiers were not changed to reflect my new DPS focused weaponskills or to combat aggro issues generated from the new skills DPS and healers were given; not only that but I was given a healing ability in the form of a "spell-like ability" that could be interrupted and had a 3 second cast time. As a tank I can't stack spell speed in order to compete against not just healers but incoming damage as well. The timing of successfully casting my healing ability went from possible to impossible as content became harder and harder. These are the current issues that all Paladins face. I feel as though we've been given only half complete skills and abilities, insufficient enmity and potency modifiers, and stances that no longer function in such a way that help us overcome our weaknesses over time.

VI. From what I understand based off the skills that Paladin has been given, I think that eventually we will be called upon to ease healer stress through our utilities and abilities (Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Protect, Clemency.) I believe that if we are designed in such a way that allows us to overcome our weaknesses, we will be able to help them easily and I, for one, am eagerly awaiting that day. In order to do this, however, not only do I now have to compete against other tanks and dps in aggro generation and damage output, I also have to be able to match healer cast times in order to use the skills that I've been given. That's the dilemma of a "support/utility tank." It is with this information in mind that I now transition to the most important part of this thread.

VII. As mentioned earlier the Paladin has been given more responsibility and less ability when it concerns all content. I believe that in order for Paladin to reach its actual maximum potential, the job needs to be re-worked extensively. It must happen. The potential of a re-worked Paladin means that it will be able to contribute additional DPS, additional healing, and additional party damage mitigation through not only Divine Veil but Stoneskin as well. Obviously there will be concerns as to just how overpowered this job could be if not balanced properly and I intend to address the issue extensively.

VIII. In regards to my proposed design philosophy in a re-worked Paladin I find myself agreeing with its current direction. Thus far Paladin's design philosophy has been, in my opinion, always centered around support and utility; as I've said earlier Cover was quite possibly one of the most utilized abilities of any class because of just how much it did in a properly structured raid/dungeon environment. On the matter of Paladin lore, I believe this is where we suffer the most by far. As you all no doubt know, "Knight" is the word the Japanese use in place of Paladin and you can tell that the job is currently at odds with itself because of this. In the eyes of the developers and the community Paladins are just royal guards that for the most part just take orders, yet they posses the ability to perform what people in their world would consider "miracles." Paladins have the ability to mend wounds and solidify flesh to resemble stone. Paladins, with this knowledge and ability in hand, should be closer to Existential Philosophers in regards to finding meaning in life and all the abilities people have. The main and off-tank roles would serve as a means to explore human/alien nature and why we fight for things or people. Paladins would think on things like the "Irresistible Force Paradox," "Causality," and "The Absurd." At the very least we should be closer to a job/class known as Sword Saint in Final Fantasy Tactics since we have access to spell-like abilities.

We're here Ladies and Gentlemen!
IX.Without wasting anymore time, let's get right down to business and discuss what I think is a step in the right direction for Paladin. I'd like to ask you to remember when I stated that currently, because of job direction, Paladins now have to compete against all three roles (Tank, DPS, and Healer) in regards to the abilities that we've been given as I move forward in this discussion. I will reiterate that it's now a Paladins responsibility to deal as much damage as other tanks, to accrue as much aggro generation as them as well, to accrue enough aggro generation in order to allow DPS to do their job while, if need be, assisting them in dealing damage as well; finally, we are to somehow compete with healer cast times (as low as 1.79 seconds I believe,) in order to actually assist them and ease the burden that they face in current and upcoming content. This is the reality that a "support/utility" tank faces and sadly lots of people don't understand that. I believe that in order for Paladins to thrive in this kind of environment we need to be rewarded in different ways for both tank stances in such a way that it will bridge the gap between all three of our newfound roles of Tank, quasi-DPS and quasi-Healer (quasi just means seemingly like something else.) I think it would be outstanding if we were rewarded "ramp up stacks" like Monk that were consumed like the Machinist's "Special Ammunition" each depending on the tank stance we had chosen at the time. With that in mind, let's discuss what stats and how these hybrid stacks would function, shall we?

A. Irresistible Force- As the name implies this would be a damage increase. The stacks would grant a scaling 10% Increase in Critical Hit Rate and 20% Increased Damage Dealt. Up to a maximum of 5 stacks would be obtained and the use of a Weaponskill would remove one stack. You gain one of these hybrid stacks upon using a defensive cooldown in Shield Oath BUT they will only be activated and consumed once you transition into Sword Oath. After all hybrid stacks are consumed you then begin accruing Immovable Object stacks. Stack Timer before it disappears should be 1 minute due to how infrequently cooldowns are needed (depending on the encounter of course.) Obviously with new information about OT DPS being somewhat similar between tanks then it might be better to switch these stacks around so that MT DPS is increased and OT utility is increased.

B. Immovable Object- As the name implies this would be an increase in our potential to survive and help ease the burden of others. The stacks would grant a 150% increase to Spell Speed and 10% increase to Determination. Up to a maximum of 5 stacks would be obtained and the use of a Spell-like Ability will remove one stack. You gain one of these hybrid stacks from the use of a combo finisher while in Sword Oath BUT they will only be activated and consumed once you transition into Shield Oath. After all hybrid stacks are consumed you then begin accruing Irresistible Force stacks. Stack Timer before it disappears should be 1 minute (just for simplicity's sake.) Obviously with new information about OT DPS being somewhat similar between tanks then it might be better to switch these stacks around so that MT DPS is increased and OT utility is increased.

C. Concerning Shield Oath and Sword Oath- The philosophy of protector and aggressor is an interesting concept in my eyes, I rather enjoy it. With the above suggestions I think both stances will feel more welcoming and make more sense in regards to what Paladin is capable of given its current abilities. Other than making these stances directly benefit me in more than just the role of Tank, I think they shouldn't interrupt combos if I move from one to the other and those are the only changes I think the stances need. At first I was concerned about how quickly the hybrid stacks would be used but then I remembered, someone's always in need of healing or a stoneskin and damage is damage. I don't believe the combat flow will be negatively affected, in fact these might make Paladin worth considering in the future for not just learning but progression as well.

D. Concerning Ability Enhancements- There are many threads and users offering suggestions concerning this topic and I, too, will offer my opinions on the matter. I, like many others, without a doubt agree the enmity generation in general needs to be increased on Paladin to better facilitate the ease of meeting DPS checks and enrage timers. I am also in agreement that Shield Swipe needs to be adjusted at least to such an extent that it can be utilized like it was it 2.X content as a slight TP and DPS gain if nothing more. In regards to any potency increases on weaponskills I'm afraid I have to leave that up to Square-Enix, and while I certainly wouldn't object to them, I feel as though we're only around 250 DPS off of where we should be. The changes above will certainly help in achieving the needed DPS from Paladin to be worthy of a raid slot. ADDENDUM: Divine Veil should function like Shield Swipe in that a cure or regen tick will activate the ability, however, you control when the mitigation shield is placed on others to avoid applying the mitigation shield to only some of the group. You'd essentially have to click the button twice but it would be more effective in A1s and A4s when the group needs to be huddled together but obstacles prevent that from happening quickly (Resin Puddles and Quarantine.)

X. To begin drawing this forum discussion to a close I will now bring everything full circle. You were more than likely wondering why the forum thread has such a weird question and here's the answer: What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? The potential to breathe new life and capability into an otherwise under-performing and boring job, to some, seems possible. It's my belief that this kind of suggestion will help prepare Paladin for spell like abilities, DPS checks, the demand for utility and support as well as add more identity, fun, and uniqueness to the job. I'd like to thank you all for being considerate, patient, and welcoming. I encourage you all to discuss this issue with your friends, show them the thread, and get others to start talking about these kinds of things. We as a community have so much power in creating and influencing beautiful things so long as we speak and listen. Silence and indifference are the only great destroyers; authenticity, creativity and advancement are their victims.

XI. Knowledge-based Links:
DPS Disparity among Tanks- http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#b...Any&dataset=80
Existentialism- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
Irresistible Force Paradox- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresi..._force_paradox
Causality- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality
Sword Saint- http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/S..._%28Tactics%29




EDIT: I welcome the people that are heavily involved in number crunching to put my ideas into a sort of simulation through DPS calculators and theoretical mathematics to see just how effective my changes will be. Admittedly, I want Paladin to do more damage through these proposals, but not in such a way that it will rival DPS or even Warrior at their greatest.
EDIT II: I BEG of you to read through the comments on this thread. There are some outstanding bits of information being discussed here and I want you all to read those as well when you're beginning to formulate your own opinion on the topic of discussion, please!

[Jim_Berry]

Can you define "maximum potential", because I always though it was to fully be able to survive TBs and hold aggro perfectly.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Can you define "maximum potential", because I always though it was to fully be able to survive TBs and hold aggro perfectly.

As many users in other forum threads have said, all three tanks in regards to tank busters handle the need to mitigate damage fairly well. On the subject of maintaining aggro, specifically in the Paladins case, it also requires some abilities from Ninja in order to secure aggro not only in Sword Oath but in some cases Shield Oath. For progressions sake a Paladin has thus far generally been required to maintain Sword Oath stance for a large portion of encounters in Savage Alexander. There are some videos that depict tanks losing aggro to one another and their healers so enmity generation does seem to be a problem. While I enjoy and encourage this type of difficulty in a pre-made party that's clearing content there are instances where our weaknesses become obvious.

It's my belief that tanks are unique in a variety of ways. In four man dungeons we can't plan for the group composition that we are given and sometimes, despite our best efforts, we will encounter problems with enmity generation (mostly with regards to Paladin.) While I feel that the enmity modifiers aren't a huge concern, I can certainly tell when a DPS outgears me even by just a few 210 pieces. I have a mixture of 180 and 190 accessories with 190 and 200 item level left side; there are times that even wearing Strength accessories while in Shield Oath I will occasionally run into problems if that particular DPS thoroughly knows their job role and abilities. Black Mages, Dragoons, and some Monks give me the most trouble. I've been playing Paladin for over a year and have a fairly good amount of knowledge and experience on how to employ Paladin properly, if you were wondering. This is what I meant in regards to "maximum potential." As I can't overcome my own weaknesses, sometimes it feels like I'm being smothered. It's a rare occasion, I'll admit.

[Leidiriv]

Very well thought-out essay so far. It's very cogent and I love the structuring. I can't wait to see what suggestions you come up with!

[Snowy_Mist]

I've been playing Paladin for over a year and have a fairly good amount of knowledge and experience on how to employ Paladin properly, if you were wondering. This is what I meant in regards to "maximum potential." As I can't overcome my own weaknesses, sometimes it feels like I'm being smothered. It's a rare occasion, I'll admit.

If you are losing aggro in df instances in shield oath you don't know how to play paladin sorry, my paladin doesn't have his eso wep yet i don't have any aggro issues in 8 man instances even in sword oath.

I'm sorry but if you were having problems in df easy instances and are basing most your opinions off that, it just makes your whole thread moot.

And i personally had no problems using stoneskin/ds/clemency when leveling in dungeons whilst holding aggro and stance dancing, it was imo probably the easiest class in dungeons to do so because of paladins utility of blind/stun/pacification and its burst with fof.

[RapBreon]

Very well thought-out essay so far. It's very cogent and I love the structuring. I can't wait to see what suggestions you come up with!

Essay? It has a fucking contents page; try thesis. :P

[Disc]

VI. From what I understand based off the skills that Paladin has been given, I think that eventually we will be called upon to ease healer stress through our utilities and abilities (Stoneskin, Divine Veil, Protect, Clemency.) I believe that if we are designed in such a way that allows us to overcome our weaknesses, we will be able to help them easily and I, for one, am eagerly awaiting that day. In order to do this, however, not only do I now have to compete against other tanks and dps in aggro generation and damage output, I also have to be able to match healer cast times in order to use the skills that I've been given. That's the dilemma of a "support/utility tank." It is with this information in mind that I now transition to the most important part of this thread.

To your issues with hate, no. You should not be losing hate in ShOath unless you're under geared or doing something wrong. However, it is an issue in SwOath. PLD is the only tank who cannot push for maximum DPS out of tank stance, which became an extremely visible weakness in early A1S/A3S where DRK could drop Grit and pull way ahead of PLD in enmity while using their offensive abilities. PLD uses tank stance when other tanks don't and/or uses RoH for enmity instead of the superior Royal Authority, the devs did not see fit to make Clemency/Divine Veil strong enough to make up for these weaknesses. The effectiveness of Thrill of Battle in current content was also likely an oversight that has lead to WAR being a competent contender for MT in physical instances where PLDs abilities will not properly scale until enemies start doing significantly more damage.

This has all been made worse by the devs attempting to gate content behind DPS checks requiring higher gear levels which has lead to a stronger emphasis on offensively superior compositions.

As mentioned earlier the Paladin has been given more responsibility and less ability when it concerns all content. I believe that in order for Paladin to reach its actual maximum potential, the job needs to be re-worked extensively.

Minor adjustments like increasing the enmity modifier on RoH or reducing the cast time on Clemency would do wonders for PLD. You will be sorely disappointed on patch day if you're expecting 2.0 WAR levels of change.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

If you are losing aggro in df instances in shield oath you don't know how to play paladin sorry, my paladin doesn't have his eso wep yet i don't have any aggro issues in 8 man instances even in sword oath.

I'm sorry but if you were having problems in df easy instances and are basing most your opinions off that, it just makes your whole thread moot.

And i personally had no problems using stoneskin/ds/clemency when leveling in dungeons whilst holding aggro and stance dancing, it was imo probably the easiest class in dungeons to do so because of paladins utility of blind/stun/pacification and its burst with fof.

I believe more information is needed for you in order to understand my position on the threat issue I have. I'll present you with two situations for a more concrete representation.
1. Situation one involves an encounter of 5+ enemies with some on my left and right flanks with one or two in front. Given the task of maintaining aggro on all of them in 9/10 dungeon runs is fairly easy. There are rare instances where either two DPS will focus on differing enemies or they begin to focus one down as I'm doing an aggro rotation through all enemies. To get back to my original target will take a minimum of 6-7 GCD's, which even with flashing and a Circle of Scorn leading up to my initial target, will present me with seeing a DPS up to 80% or greater of my aggro bar. Assuming the initial target received not only Shield Lob but Circle of Scorn, Flash, Fast Blade, Savage Blade, Flash, Rage of Halone and another Flash just for good measure, as I'm coming back to it I'll know that a DPS will be fast on my heels.

2. Situation two involves only a boss encounter. I'll initiate the encounter with a Shield Lob in Shield Oath and maintain it for a minimum of three aggro rotations with a couple of Flashes and the Circle of Scorn included. Transitioning to Sword Oath to begin DPS rotations I knowingly have to pay attention to my aggro bar with each successive Royal Authority and Goring Blade as is to be expected of me. Occasionally after every third or fourth Royal Authority I will add in one Rage of Halone combo to limit how fast the DPS catch me in terms of aggro generation. While I will never explicitly lose aggro, seeing others approaching the top worries me greatly. In one such encounter we finished the boss and I only had slightly larger than a sliver off aggro generation left.

In both situations one would be wise to ask "did the DPS use their aggro limitation/reduction abilities" first in order to give the benefit of the doubt to the player in question. From the observations I can make in the limited time I have, I'd have to say sometimes yes and sometimes no. I'll agree with the statement that as long as I'm in Shield Oath there won't be a considerable issue.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

To your issues with hate, no. You should not be losing hate in ShOath unless you're under geared or doing something wrong. However, it is an issue in SwOath. PLD is the only tank who cannot push for maximum DPS out of tank stance, which became an extremely visible weakness in early A1S/A3S where DRK could drop Grit and pull way ahead of PLD in enmity while using their offensive abilities. PLD uses tank stance when other tanks don't and/or uses RoH for enmity instead of the superior Royal Authority, the devs did not see fit to make Clemency/Divine Veil strong enough to make up for these weaknesses. The effectiveness of Thrill of Battle in current content was also likely an oversight that has lead to WAR being a competent contender for MT in physical instances where PLDs abilities will not properly scale until enemies start doing significantly more damage.
This has all been made worse by the devs attempting to gate content behind DPS checks requiring higher gear levels which has lead to a stronger emphasis on offensively superior compositions.
Minor adjustments like increasing the enmity modifier on RoH or reducing the cast time on Clemency would do wonders for PLD. You will be sorely disappointed on patch day if you're expecting 2.0 WAR levels of change.

I agree with all of your points and in addition concerning the potential of Warrior 2.1 style buffs coming to Paladins, this thread will (I believe) offer a good opinion on how Square-Enix can set Paladins up for future content if we are to be the "support/utility" tank.

[Snowy_Mist]

snip

In terms of dungeons i usually number my mobs and if you use flash and cos regularly there shouldn't be too much of an issue, But yeah SE said they would address tank aggro gen.

For the latter is this raid or dungeons bosses still? If its raid you can comfortably get away with one shield oath roh combo then switching to swo for the rest of the duration. In dungeon bosses i have no issues with aggro if i open with sword oath and use my fof burst, especially if you put two goring blades in there. Then again i don't stack vit on my pld, which i think is what gives a lot other paladins trouble in this area.
Maximising the class involves limiting the time spent in shield oath and using cooldowns and your fofburst correctly in order to get more aggro gen.

I think Paladin would really shine if its RoH enmity was increased a lot, changes to shield swipe are made, and its utility improved.