Job Uniquiness, how?

I'm actually terrified of this, as they haven't explained HOW they are going to do it. To me the only thing XVI has going for it is I can put any ability I learn from any class (Or pretty much any ability) and make MY OWN CLASS.

I'm terrified, horrified and waiting with absolute fear, that in the name of making classes more "Unique" we will be kept from loading out abilities as we wish. Am I the only one with this undying fear?

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

I'm actually terrified of this, as they haven't explained HOW they are going to do it. To me the only thing XVI has going for it is I can put any ability I learn from any class (Or pretty much any ability) and make MY OWN CLASS.

I'm terrified, horrified and waiting with absolute fear, that in the name of making classes more "Unique" we will be kept from loading out abilities as we wish. Am I the only one with this undying fear?

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I wouldn't say terrified since there have been some good possible directions based on his quotes in interviews on this matter. I am however more anxious more than anything which is why its hard for me to get on the game recently. I am really hoping the team decides among there choices and present what made the cut in a few days.

Creating Job uniqueness and keeping the same skill swapping system is easy enough if you:

1. Limit the types of skills that can be swapped around. (Don't need PUG's casing Curaga 3)
2. Limit the power of the skill that was transferred. (Have Cure heal for 3/4th of the normal amount if swapped).

Limiting the skills that can be swapped is a non answer for me, it limits options, ANYTHING that limits options is NOT an Answer.

I wouldn't mind limiting effectiveness though, so long as it's not an absurd cut, (3/4ths would be Fine, 1/4th effective normal would NOT.

I agree, the sandbox feeling of the game is what makes FFXIV different from FFXI. The reason why I switched was the ability to make my own class. I'm want a game that allows for the creation of a Viable Gish, a RDM that focuses on the enhancement of attacks rather than healing nuking or debuffing. The closest so far has been FFXI, but still not there yet.

I'm sure there are many players who have always had the desire to play a certain character, which might not fit into the classic job descriptions. If job uniqueness is implemented in the wrong way than this could remove the viability of such custom classes, which so far is the main difference between FFXI and FFXIV. I have no desire to simply see a sequel of FFXI, which is what this could do if implemented badly. I also feel that while players are asking for Class Uniqueness, what they are really asking for is Player Uniqueness, which requires an entirely different solution.

Unfortunately, if they limit the usefulness of an ability when it is cross-classed, then there aren't a lot of skills that should even be cross classed. It implies that the character should only be using skills from their class, but that we have the option to gimp ourselves if we want to.

But if we keep the ability to cross class every skill with little-to-no repercussions, then we face the inevitability that there will be no uniqueness or defined roles in parties. As an RPG, we have groups. We also have roles that people should play in a group. The classes, as of now, are very bland. Everyone can play everything as anything. That isn't really unique.

A lot of people seem to feel that being able to use abilities from every class is a good thing. I hate to be the odd man out, but I really think that this system would be better suited for a single-player game, and not an MMO.

Think about it. If you don't have to give anything up, then why would you? Just level every class to 50 and use the best abilities of each one. I'm sure no one else will ever think to use only the good spells and abilities.... As is, all the classes play the same anyway. So it wouldn't even matter what weapon you're using as your "main class." You'd still play exactly like everyone else.


This is why we need class definition. There needs to be a healer class, an offensive caster class, a support class, a tank class, and all of the damage classes need to feel different from each other.

That's not to say we can't have some cross-classing skills. But it's ridiculous that a rank one gladiator can cast Shadowsear and kill things ten levels above them. At that point, why not just play a Thaumaturge?


I can understand the fear of losing something that you think you're working for. But if we're working in a flawed system, then what's it worth of our work anyway?

That's just my two gil. I hope you're not afraid anymore... but if you are, then maybe reevaluate what about it makes you afraid.

Indeed, I feel this is a hot button issue, and I want to know what the devs are thinking before they try and implement changes.

Like Aldarin, I think the only thing this game has going for it is the ability to make my own class, crafting is cool, and great, except for the fact I need to be a lvl 20 in some class to make a lvl 7 weapon... but that's a different issue. The graphics are also good, but that's to be expected. The Quests aren't there yet, though I have yet to try out the new side-quest lines. The gear choice to me is seemingly lack luster, only one weapon seems to be available for any given level..the parties are...non existant. The Guildleves have an awful timer..

The ONLY good thing really is the ability to MAKE my own class, and I'm terrified of that being taken away because people want to look at a mage class and say "Healer", look at a Gladiator and say "Tank" ect. If I want to be a gladiator that casts black magic and white magic I should be able to!

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Originally Posted by Aldarin

I also feel that while players are asking for Class Uniqueness, what they are really asking for is Player Uniqueness, which requires an entirely different solution.

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This pretty much hit the nail on the head. Now I cant remember where but one of these "Job Uniqueness" threads stated that what weapon you put in your hand plus what skills you equip determine what "Job/Class" your character is. i.e.

Gladiator + Sword + Cure = Paladin

I think that it's just up to us to finally go about and use this. Yet I still stand my my original statement that when a skill is swapped it should be limited on how effective it is, and that certain skills should not be swapped for certain weapon combo. Otherwise we'll once again end up with "Cookie-Cutter" job descriptions but with everyone on pretty much the same weapon + skill combo.

EDIT: Heres the link to the thread I was talking about. It's in the OP
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033

Heartfire, having just read your post I am still afraid, because I don't care about what you seem to care about, I want to be able to define my own role and class. As it is, it is possible to essentially make your own class by combining different abilities. What you are describing would make this MMO exactly like every other MMO... I want something different. I don't want to be forced to play a certain role just because I'm holding a staff or a sword or something. I like the idea of being able to buff and heal while holding say a spear, and still be able to dish out decent damage.

The reality is that the "best" abilities of each class are very subjective, and you will never be able to equip every good ability all at once. Furthermore, you're forgetting that different weapons have different inherent bonuses... you aren't going to to throw a fireball as well while holding a sword as you would while holding a staff that grants a boost to your magic attack stat and MP. Similarly, using gladiator skills isn't going to be as effective while holding a staff as it would be while holding a more physical weapon like a sword or axe.

What if I want to play mainly a spear wielder who can buff on the side? What if I wanted to be an archer that can heal? What if I like the idea of an axe wielder who can cast debuffs and attack spells for extra DPS? In your cookie cutter class system, a lot of these things would end up not being possible... just like all the dozens of other MMOs out there. Why can't you define your own role when given the chance instead of complaining that you can? I LIKE the idea of FF14 being different... of it NOT being exactly like every single other MMO out there. I like the idea of it even being unique to its predecessor, FF 11. Every Final Fantasy has been unique from the one before it. I'd like to keep it that way. I also like being given more options and more ability to customize my character, instead of being forced into a cookie cutter role.

Also... if someone wants to play a pure class... why don't they? You can still just equip your class skills and equipment and play a class as that class. There is nothing stopping you and it's an entirely valid way to play in fact... but why do you want to force that on others? I happen to like things the way they are, and I'm terrified of them taking the part of the game that I love the most away.

Here's the future if everything stays the same right now. Rank 50 Gladiator's everywhere. "Let's go fight endgame! What, you're injured!? CURE! What, this monster is immune to physical!? That's ok, we can use elemental magic, too! Who's the tank? Everyone!"

Isn't that the most funtastic thing you've ever wet-dreamed over? Hahaha!

If they focused on the pictures that described the roll of party on the ffxiv website and worked from there forwards, i doubt class uniqueness would be such a problem like it is now.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Here's the future if everything stays the same right now. Rank 50 Gladiator's everywhere. "Let's go fight endgame! What, you're injured!? CURE! What, this monster is immune to physical!? That's ok, we can use elemental magic, too! Who's the tank? Everyone!"

Isn't that the most funtastic thing you've ever wet-dreamed over? Hahaha!

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Becuase there are no cooldowns or lowered effectiveness when you cross class magic to a DoW right? Do some of you even play the game?

I play with "all-in-ones" most of the time to my great disappointment. Do some of you even play the game?

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Right I never said ANYTHING about getting rid of the ARMOURY SYSTEM >< The classes would just be changed to traditional ones and the would have their specific traits and abilities. So you could level BLM and add cure's from WHM, Provoke from WAR, Boost from MNK whatever, those are ABILITIES. Traits however would remain exclusive to the class, so WAR would have Double attack exclusive, BLM would have traits that boost it's elemental nukes, DRG would have a Wyvern and so on so that the classes still had something unique about them.

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Now, this Idea I like.

And Kimahri, yes, I think that's perfectly cool, I'm more of a small group/solo-er so that's PERFECTLY alright to me!

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

Now, this Idea I like.

And Kimahri, yes, I think that's perfectly cool, I'm more of a small group/solo-er so that's PERFECTLY alright to me!

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If this is the case, then let me point out something to you. This is a MASSIVE "Multi-player" online ROLE playing game. If you like to just play by yourself, then go back to platform games where that's all you did. Play by yourself. This game(And that of XI and other MMO's) were designed for people to get together, as different ROLE's, and achieve a common goal.

Roleplaying is not about using backstab because your a rogue, Kimahri. :P

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

Roleplaying is not about using backstab because your a rogue, Kimahri. :P

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Are you serious? That's the best defense you could come up with? Half an hour of thought? Just delete your thread, it's been busted all over your face.

I am sorry but you are about to be heartbroken OP.

The problems people are having with class uniqueness has more to do with the games play style than the classes themselves. there's no real organization in this game right now. People more or less just zerg the behests/leve's and aside from conj's, it just feels like everything is the same.

I thought the armoury system was an interesting idea, but I kinda knew it would it up the way it is right now.. You talk about building a class of your own, but in reality, its not. Everyone will be doing the same thing. Everyone will rank up mages for curing abilities and shock spikes. Melee's will rank up archers for raging strike, lnc's for feint, pugs for chakra etc...

Even though most of my sub classes are only around r15, theres enough good abilities at those levels that my pug has more of those than my own. Aside from the fact that I hit twice, I really don't feel like much of a pug. Just another player in the crowd with a weapon and a bunch of non-pug abilities.

How are they going to fix it? Who knows, but anythings better then what they got going on right now.

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Originally Posted by Jasmine_Aurelia

I'm actually terrified of this, as they haven't explained HOW they are going to do it. To me the only thing XVI has going for it is I can put any ability I learn from any class (Or pretty much any ability) and make MY OWN CLASS.

I'm terrified, horrified and waiting with absolute fear, that in the name of making classes more "Unique" we will be kept from loading out abilities as we wish. Am I the only one with this undying fear?

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You are now aware that you like playing games that require no thought or tactics. You are in the minority.

The current system allows for your "OWN CLASS" at the expense of freedom. I'm not down with that.

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Originally Posted by Raansu

The problems people are having with class uniqueness has more to do with the games play style than the classes themselves. there's no real organization in this game right now. People more or less just zerg the behests/leve's and aside from conj's, it just feels like everything is the same.

I thought the armoury system was an interesting idea, but I kinda knew it would it up the way it is right now.. You talk about building a class of your own, but in reality, its not. Everyone will be doing the same thing. Everyone will rank up mages for curing abilities and shock spikes. Melee's will rank up archers for raging strike, lnc's for feint, pugs for chakra etc...

Even though most of my sub classes are only around r15, theres enough good abilities at those levels that my pug has more of those than my own. Aside from the fact that I hit twice, I really don't feel like much of a pug. Just another player in the crowd with a weapon and a bunch of non-pug abilities.

How are they going to fix it? Who knows, but anythings better then what they got going on right now.

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That is EXACTLY the same way I feel. I have every DoW & DoM class at the halfway mark, R25, from completion and I have yet to see the difference in any of them. The only thing I see different is the weapons, and the mages ability to AoE every damn spell.....

I'm not a fan of a system that allows you to use skills from another class with minuscule penalty. The vast majority of people are not creative or have enough self control not to make a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-all-trades class. Props to you if you want to have a bowman who can cure people occasionally, but if given the option, people will make a class that does everything (see: Elder Scrolls series).

I would be okay if the system limited to choosing between only 1 or 2 additional classes from which you can pull skills from.

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Originally Posted by Jedgar

This pretty much hit the nail on the head. Now I cant remember where but one of these "Job Uniqueness" threads stated that what weapon you put in your hand plus what skills you equip determine what "Job/Class" your character is. i.e.

Gladiator + Sword + Cure = Paladin

I think that it's just up to us to finally go about and use this. Yet I still stand my my original statement that when a skill is swapped it should be limited on how effective it is, and that certain skills should not be swapped for certain weapon combo. Otherwise we'll once again end up with "Cookie-Cutter" job descriptions but with everyone on pretty much the same weapon + skill combo.

EDIT: Heres the link to the thread I was talking about. It's in the OP
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033

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Gladiator + Sword + Cure = A sword user with a cure. "Jobs" and "classes" are two different things. These are like base "classes". "Jobs" will be, "job" specific because those "jobs" are best at their "job". Here's an example, You get someone who has a job to be a software engineer. Then you put him up against someone who has never touched any sort of software. Who has the better "abilities" for that "job"?

There you have it boys and girls.

The armoury system was designed to allow players to create their own unique jobs or even recreate classic FF jobs. The problem is the game as so much freedom something became lost in the process. Take WS for example, those should be weapon unique, no sense on use red lotus blade with a spear or arrow.

Also people don't feel like equip a dagger and having some thief like abilities make them a classic thief. This is why I thought a Legend Armor or "AF" for the FFXI group, would allow people to play those jobs. By equipping said armor the abilities know to be "classic" would be enhanced as well as some added new ones unique to the armor.

As for the uniqueness of the class currently in game they do exist. GLA is your standard sword/shield tank. MRD is a AoE expert making them good for off tank or just trash mob cleanup. PUG can change from offense to defense making them a good backup tank. LNC has good support abilities. ARC is a distance DD with crowd control. CON can dps or heal. THM is enfeebler with a mix of support.

The biggest problem was since the game launch broke combat was put on the back burner until now. The current class has be touched or looked at until now and people are alittle miffed about that fact

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'm not a fan of a system that allows you to use skills from another class with minuscule penalty. The vast majority of people are not creative or have enough self control not to make a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-all-trades class. Props to you if you want to have a bowman who can cure people occasionally, but if given the option, people will make a class that does everything (see: Elder Scrolls series).

I would be okay if the system limited to choosing between only 1 or 2 additional classes from which you can pull skills from.

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I get what you are saying Wolfie and I think this is one of the inhereit challenges with making both solo and party friendly. Solo you tend to use abilites like cure to keep you alive and lower downtime, but can become a crutch when you join a party. If you ever played FFXI remember how many noobies would show up a PT with DD/whm. Party requires a certain degree of trust, like is the "healer" going to heal me or is the tank going to AFK when I pull? I think once people get over that intial fear and just let go then you'll see player using abilities to better augment there play style.

Im sorry OP but its a change that must happen. I felt that this system was going to be questionable from the start. I know everyone whines about certain classes being required but there isnt any way around that without having all classes be the same.

Often times its because its hard to find a healer class (white mage) so you cant create a group, but without a healer you cant do much. So people want a system where a healer isnt needed, but then why would anyone play a healing class? More often than not this is the example used as healing isnt a popular choice, but how exactly does it work the other way around? Should mages be able to tank difficult enemies because they cant find one or dont want to play one? If they could why would anyone want to play as a tank?

In the end everyone would end up just playing dmg classes that have a multitude of heals/buffs that are only slightly less effective than the class using them.

Take healing for example in this game. Its dumbed down to the point where most people have at least a mildly effective heal, and we only have 2 heals in the game (1 for each mage) and neither really separates itself from the other. Since theres no downside to having AOE turned on healers are forced to leave aoe on and use the same spell over and over and over and over. I think its like this to prevent all classes from having tons of different heals they could all just spam.

Everyone talks about making your own class, but thats not how it works now. Everyone takes a few useful abilities from each class and everyone ends up the same. You dont see many mages using skewer or moonrise do you? How many warriors start casting thunder and fire?

How do you make a system where using a skill on a cross-class isnt as effective as the class its intended for but still make it worth your time?

I stopped posting on this thread because I could see that it was just going to upset me. I try not to argue with people who are illogical, because logic is the only thing I argue with. I can't just cross-class an ability to not make a decent argument.

Kimahri is spot-on. That's exactly what is going to happen, and that is the exact opposite of "customization." If you are too blinded by the sheer greed of "I want to be good at everything at the same time," then you should go pick up a solo game.

I understand the desire for the game to be different. I'm not saying it has to be exactly the same. But what I am saying is that our current system is absolute crap, and it needs to be fixed. If it wasn't so terrible, then they wouldn't be working on over-hauling the system.

Being unique means specializing into something. There are plenty of roles, and there are plenty of ways to fulfill each role. I know you hate seeing FFXI as a reference, but it was SE's successful MMO, and it is a perfect example of my point. Each class had a role, and each one performed their role in ways that were unique to their class. Find a play style you like, and go with it. Everything you posted, about "an axe-man that can cast debuffs or offensive spells" is already a class. It's called a Dark Knight. Play a Final Fantasy game, why don'tcha?

I could go on... But I think I've made my point here. The system we have now will only lead to every one being exactly the same. It breaks the game to have a Gladiator cast Shadowsear at rank one.... I think the only reason you think it is good is because you want to have your character perform just as well as an entire group of people with dedicated roles. That's as childish as it is frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

I stopped posting on this thread because I could see that it was just going to upset me. I try not to argue with people who are illogical, because logic is the only thing I argue with. I can't just cross-class an ability to not make a decent argument.

Kimahri is spot-on. That's exactly what is going to happen, and that is the exact opposite of "customization." If you are too blinded by the sheer greed of "I want to be good at everything at the same time," then you should go pick up a solo game.

I understand the desire for the game to be different. I'm not saying it has to be exactly the same. But what I am saying is that our current system is absolute crap, and it needs to be fixed. If it wasn't so terrible, then they wouldn't be working on over-hauling the system.

Being unique means specializing into something. There are plenty of roles, and there are plenty of ways to fulfill each role. I know you hate seeing FFXI as a reference, but it was SE's successful MMO, and it is a perfect example of my point. Each class had a role, and each one performed their role in ways that were unique to their class. Find a play style you like, and go with it. Everything you posted, about "an axe-man that can cast debuffs or offensive spells" is already a class. It's called a Dark Knight. Play a Final Fantasy game, why don'tcha?

I could go on... But I think I've made my point here. The system we have now will only lead to every one being exactly the same. It breaks the game to have a Gladiator cast Shadowsear at rank one.... I think the only reason you think it is good is because you want to have your character perform just as well as an entire group of people with dedicated roles. That's as childish as it is frustrating.

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I agree and wish more people felt the same. Usually it comes down to people wanting to be able to solo more effectivley or not feel gimped in any aspect of the game which is rather absurd in an mmo.

You cant expect every class to be able to heal effectivley, not ever class should have the insane damage or damage resistance. For party based combat to work you need that specific role which is oddly what people want to do away with.

If you want to be a warrior that can cast spells efficiently you better be ready to sacrifice something in return, thats what balancing is, this idea that everyone has of being able to equip any skill on any class and have it be useful just doesnt work.

Although your example doesnt work too well, shadowsear is class specific, I understand what your saying though lol.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

Kimahri is spot-on. That's exactly what is going to happen, and that is the exact opposite of "customization." If you are too blinded by the sheer greed of "I want to be good at everything at the same time," then you should go pick up a solo game.

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That...........Now that.............That brought a tear to me eye. :o

And, Choc.....You da man!

Being able to do anything on any class:

Unique compared to FFXI, yes.

Unique compared to EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN EORZEA, no.

I don't understand how anyone could think that every player, regardless of their current class, being able to use every non-class specific skill in the game would be unique. If I can DD and heal at the same time, why not DD nuke and heal at the same time? Heck, why not DD, tank, nuke and heal at the same time? And then you end up with nothing but a homogenized end game super class.

How special, you get to be the same as everyone else, grats!

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Being able to do anything on any class:

Unique compared to FFXI, yes.

Unique compared to EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN EORZEA, no.

I don't understand how anyone could think that every player, regardless of their current class, being able to use every non-class specific skill in the game would be unique. If I can DD and heal at the same time, why not DD nuke and heal at the same time? Heck, why not DD, tank, nuke and heal at the same time? And then you end up with nothing but a homogenized end game super class.

How special, you get to be the same as everyone else, grats!

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you forgot buff, debuff and crowd control, gotta multitask to the fullest extent.

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Originally Posted by Choc

you forgot buff, debuff and crowd control, gotta multitask to the fullest extent.

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Would kiting be considered crowd control? Haha!

why kite when you have a healerbufferdebuffertankddcc class?

Choc-

Are you sure? I think either I saw something I didn't see, or someone is hacking. I could have sworn I saw a low-rank Gladiator casting Shadowsear..... I really hope it is Class Specific. It's just ridiculous that this can even happen, or would even be plausible. But even if I was wrong, you still get the picture.

And Kimahri, I can't help but agree with you. It really shouldn't be a topic for debate, as you are just stating the obvious. The system is broken, and there are far too many people who don't want to admit it. They're going to cling to a system that won't work because it makes them feel good to be "anything they want to be," which turns into "everything at the same time." This isn't how an RPG is supposed to work. This could work if it was a solo game, but the fact is it's an MMORPG. Without a group system, the game falls apart. The current system takes away the synergy that group members should have. A tank should always have a healer. It's just that simple.

Sometimes I think the people who like this system were the ones who played only melee DD jobs in FFXI. They're tired of being dime-a-dozen, and don't want defined roles, or any sort of "elitist" efficiency in making a group. Soon, the whole game is going to be full of lolDRG/rdm's!

yea heartfire, I have 50 con/48 thaum. Conjurers get their pathetic ancient magic spells at 44, thaumaturge get shadowsear at 42, both of those are class specific. I cant even use shadowsear on conjurer.

Weird.... Either I saw something else, (though Shadowsear has a pretty recognizable animation), or it was a glitch/hack. I just remember specifically being upset about it. (I actually turned off the game only a few minutes after logging in. Normally I wait until surplus to rage-quit! XD)

Oh well. If I ever see it again, I'll know to make a note.

On a side note, (after seeing some reasonable people responding to the thread), why do you think so many people are afraid of this change?

The only reason I can come up with is that they really do want to be everything. It just seems so pointless, though. I don't understand why people think it is great to have an "ultimate" character. Doesn't it take the skill out of everything? I thought the point of RPGs was to strategize, and use the tools that we have to overcome the obstacles in the game. If we have every possible tool... isn't that a little bit like cheating?

Story time!: This reminds me of a game I used to love to play, called "American McGee's Alice." It was so hard, and I am terrible at shooter-style games. But I loved it. After a while I had gotten what I thought to be pretty far into the game, but it just got too hard. I looked up some cheat codes. (Yes, I'm a sad panda). I obviously beat the rest of the game, but the fun was gone. Sure, I had fun killing the stuff that I couldn't get past on my own, but after a while, it just wasn't any more fun. It's because there was no threat. There was no question that I wouldn't be able to reach my goals. I didn't have to think about playing the game. I could go do whatever I wanted, and it didn't matter, because I had unlimited power. I didn't have to use strategy at all.

Although we obviously don't have a "god mode" for FFXIV, I still feel like having every ability available is about as much fun as cheating. If you have to cheat at a game, then you're not really playing it. At least, that's what I think.

Just my two gil, take it as you see.

So again, what do you think causes people to want this sort of system, where we have everything?

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Originally Posted by Choc

How do you make a system where using a skill on a cross-class isnt as effective as the class its intended for but still make it worth your time?

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Right on, man. There are two major issues that'll come up that everyone seems to be overlooking.

1. The strong desire to not be "cookie-cutter" is baseless. There will always be clear "bests" no matter what happens. Your class can't be too unique if everyone is building him the same.

2. As a result of needing all of these skills to be a viable contender in either endgame or whatever, you'll need to invest an ungodly amount of time ranking up as many other classes at it'll take you to develop your repertoire of abilities.

I like the idea of being able to take certain abilities, but the devs are going to end up alienating more people who can't invest the same time as the hardcore players. Right now, the push is for more subscribers, not to keep the stragglers from launch happy.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

I stopped posting on this thread because I could see that it was just going to upset me. I try not to argue with people who are illogical, because logic is the only thing I argue with. I can't just cross-class an ability to not make a decent argument.

Kimahri is spot-on. That's exactly what is going to happen, and that is the exact opposite of "customization." If you are too blinded by the sheer greed of "I want to be good at everything at the same time," then you should go pick up a solo game.

I understand the desire for the game to be different. I'm not saying it has to be exactly the same. But what I am saying is that our current system is absolute crap, and it needs to be fixed. If it wasn't so terrible, then they wouldn't be working on over-hauling the system.

Being unique means specializing into something. There are plenty of roles, and there are plenty of ways to fulfill each role. I know you hate seeing FFXI as a reference, but it was SE's successful MMO, and it is a perfect example of my point. Each class had a role, and each one performed their role in ways that were unique to their class. Find a play style you like, and go with it. Everything you posted, about "an axe-man that can cast debuffs or offensive spells" is already a class. It's called a Dark Knight. Play a Final Fantasy game, why don'tcha?

I could go on... But I think I've made my point here. The system we have now will only lead to every one being exactly the same. It breaks the game to have a Gladiator cast Shadowsear at rank one.... I think the only reason you think it is good is because you want to have your character perform just as well as an entire group of people with dedicated roles. That's as childish as it is frustrating.

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Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Heartfire

The only reason I can come up with is that they really do want to be everything. It just seems so pointless, though. I don't understand why people think it is great to have an "ultimate" character. Doesn't it take the skill out of everything? I thought the point of RPGs was to strategize, and use the tools that we have to overcome the obstacles in the game. If we have every possible tool... isn't that a little bit like cheating?

Story time!: This reminds me of a game I used to love to play, called "American McGee's Alice." It was so hard, and I am terrible at shooter-style games. But I loved it. After a while I had gotten what I thought to be pretty far into the game, but it just got too hard. I looked up some cheat codes. (Yes, I'm a sad panda). I obviously beat the rest of the game, but the fun was gone. Sure, I had fun killing the stuff that I couldn't get past on my own, but after a while, it just wasn't any more fun. It's because there was no threat. There was no question that I wouldn't be able to reach my goals. I didn't have to think about playing the game. I could go do whatever I wanted, and it didn't matter, because I had unlimited power. I didn't have to use strategy at all.

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Now this is exactly what I would've said to make everything about this system comparable. If we were to go ahead and look at this down the line. Instead of seeing a variety of classes, (A tank or two of Gladiator's, A couple of healer's/buffer's, and also a rather more DD/Magic DD's) you'll basically see 15 Thaumaturge's because they can take the best possible abilities from all other classes and incorporate it into a form of kiting and running around until the thing dies of exhaustion? How does that sound anything like the term, "Pleasing"?