HQ and NQ stat gap needs to close (Both should allow max stats with materia):

One thing which has been bothering me this expansion was development said they wanted to remove the massive punishment for NQ vs HQ. Right now this just isn't true with the stats on the new crafting gear and materia availability. And infact due to materia V nonavailability this problem has gotten worse.

Simply put what I would like to see is HQ equipment should be relatively trivial to max the stats with materia, it should be cheep and easy representing the true time and craftsmanship put in by the crafter to reach such an awesome item. Likewise with NQ equipment it should be reasonable to max the stats with materia, but notably more costly (similar to how difficult HQ gear is to max now minus this mess with V crafting/gathering materia). This would allow NQ equipment to still have value, but require additional post effort to make it "usable". If I were to implement the above change... I would also moderately increase the difficulty curve to reach HQ! This would seam perfectly reasonable if both qualities are truly usable.

Doing the above would GREATLY alleviate hatred toward crafting token systems where pinnacle items are earned. It would suddenly make HQs feel rewarding, while NQ something you can accept. Likewise if the difficulty for HQ was increased properly, suddenly HQ items would really seem special.

---

Such a system could even evolve farther to have a grade of PQ (perfect quality) only achievable if you were to hit something like 20-40% excess quality, creating an item which requires no materia. While I recognize something like this would require notable additional programming, one should immediately recognize the rewards of such a system. Players crafting would feel less risk, and instead be rewarded with more FUN. Likewise crafters with less gear and equipment would feel more functional and less scared to enter crafting... but on the other hand crafters with incredible gear would have the fun of chasing after Perfect Quality items each week.

Anyway just something I've been thinking about lately in regards to what is a terrible NQ/HQ system right now (which only punishes users, rather than grants fun rewards for doing well). What do you all think?

---

Side thought which was occurring me as I was dozing off to sleep. They could greatly simplify the system and make it so that NQ, HQ (and a lovely PQ) all had the same stats... but higher qualities had more guaranteed meld slots. One could easily envision NQ items always having 1-2 meld slots, HQ having 3-4, while PQ would always have 5. This would simplify the stats for everyone (the optimal melds would be the same for all qualities), but the melding experience would be greatly easier for higher quality items. This would make buying/selling NQ vs HQ (and other quality) stupid trivial for buyers and sellers. Anyone at a glance could tell the difference between something sold and if the melds were competitive with other listings (regardless of quality). And again higher quality would be a reward to the crafter since less required melds makes your item worth more.

I'm pretty sure they said they were gonna reduce the stat difference so that NQ items wouldn't be useless, let alone worth less than the mats used to create it. They said something about reducing the stat difference from 20% to 10% or something, but didn't account for the fact that there's stat inflation, or at least the difference is still very, very significant...that a NQ master's mainhand is equal stats to an HQ'd adamantite mainhand.

They did which is why I have no idea how they got into this place. It's really weird because they wanted to: Make crafting more accessible, reduce the need for cross-class skills, reduce the gap between NQ and HQ items, and improve the value of gathered goods. They basically failed 3 out of 4 of their goals... and didn't just fail but made them notably worse. I feel SE needs a reminder and some alternate recommendations lol.

By having more guaranteed melding slots though (or enough "enough % bonus to make HQ worthwhile"), the price of materia will crash horribly. No longer do you need 30 materia for that last meld, you only need 1.

I think Desynth is supposed to be a way to recover goods with NQ, maybe they can work on that a bit. Say, desynthing will always return the 2 star crafting mat for example.

> improve the value of gathered goods
by increasing the value of gathered goods to unaffordable levels, they are making crafting much less accessible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ragnvard

By having more guaranteed melding slots though (or enough "enough % bonus to make HQ worthwhile"), the price of materia will crash horribly. No longer do you need 30 materia for that last meld, you only need 1.

---

I'm not sure if that's a bad thing. It brings it more in line with say, a gem or enchant system from other successful MMORPGs. In those games, there is still a massive, constant demand for those items, despite only ever requiring a few (or less) per item.

The HQ/ NQ issue is in our head. Get a set of NQ gear together, craft recipes at the level of the tool. Do the same with HQ gear. The differences are minimal.

Now try and craft recipes above the level of your tool with both sets, even if you are at a level above the recipe. Just like you get no benefit from the desynth of HQ, you get no appreciable benefit from HQ. If anything, you might be wasting stats on HQ because you exceed the hidden bonuses. You just can't convince people that NQ is enough when HQ is available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

The HQ/ NQ issue is in our head. Get a set of NQ gear together, craft recipes at the level of the tool. Do the same with HQ gear. The differences are minimal.

Now try and craft recipes above the level of your tool with both sets, even if you are at a level above the recipe. Just like you get no benefit from the desynth of HQ, you get no appreciable benefit from HQ. If anything, you might be wasting stats on HQ because you exceed the hidden bonuses. You just can't convince people that NQ is enough when HQ is available.

---

that difference is much greater at the higher levels. Wait until you get to 60 and try that. Anything below 60 is pretty close in level to each other, with the exception of level 59 master-book recipes which are a slight bit more difficult than level 59 non-master-book recipes, and level 60 master-book-recipes another tier above that. Then you get to level 60 1-star, and you're blown out of the water and you start to realize that every point matters when you're close to specific break points in reducing 2-3 steps from the craft which can be essential when you're at 2-star.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

that difference is much greater at the higher levels. Wait until you get to 60 and try that. Anything below 60 is pretty close in level to each other, with the exception of level 59 master-book recipes which are a slight bit more difficult than level 59 non-master-book recipes, and level 60 master-book-recipes another tier above that. Then you get to level 60 1-star, and you're blown out of the water and you start to realize that every point matters when you're close to specific break points in reducing 2-3 steps from the craft which can be essential when you're at 2-star.

---

And ever in that case, red script NQ gear will accomplish everything you need to accomplish. Even on the crafted red script sets, the difference between NQ and HQ can be negated by food of the same level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

And ever in that case, red script NQ gear will accomplish everything you need to accomplish. Even on the crafted red script sets, the difference between NQ and HQ can be negated by food of the same level.

---

You are making some assumptions here... one is that negating a difference with food buffs is acceptable. Another is that the NQ item isn't a NQ main/offhand. But again in none of these cases NQ and HQ aren't really comparable. The gap in quality and value is HUGE at the tier two star level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katlyna

You are making some assumptions here... one is that negating a difference with food buffs is acceptable. Another is that the NQ item isn't a NQ main/offhand. But again in none of these cases NQ and HQ aren't really comparable. The gap in quality and value is HUGE at the tier two star level.

---

She makes a good point -- you're talking about two whole stars worth of quality. Your NQ i170 tool isn't a 170, it's a freakin HQ 150. 20 item levels worth of stats because you NQ'd an item? really?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

She makes a good point -- you're talking about two whole stars worth of quality. Your NQ i170 tool isn't a 170, it's a freakin HQ 150. 20 item levels worth of stats because you NQ'd an item? really?

---

No, she is justifying.

i170 is i170.

stats make it easier but in terms of iLevel, the NQ is still getting the same treatment.

Let me give you and example.

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

I did this with Weaver.

Our character is a mannequin. Everything is tied to gear level now. Stats are important and while it is obvious you want as much as you can get at end game, if you end up in NQ blue, you will still be capable of executing all recipes for the 60 level, even the 3 star we are eventually going to get.

In order to verify what Ksenia said is true or not, I went on to do the following experiment.
First, I tried to obtain a HQ lvl 52 mainhand tool and a NQ lvl 55 mainhand tool. However, the stats were not what Ksenia had described. As you can see from the picture below, the NQ lvl 55 tool is actually 3 Control fewer than the HQ lvl 52 mainhand tool.
http://i.imgur.com/2lF1uMq.png
In order to proceed with the experiment, I have chosen the NQ lvl 57 mainhand tool. It does have 5 more control and 10 more craftsmanship than the HQ lvl 52 tool, so I melded 5 more control to the lvl 52 tool using materia. Now the two tools have identical control levels, and can be used for comparison on quality gain per touch.

Following Ksenia's description, I have chosen a level 55 recipe - Star Sapphire
http://i.imgur.com/TbuNd2c.png

If what Ksenia said is true. Then the NQ lvl 57 hammer will give much better quality per touch since it's 2 levels above the recipe. Where as the HQ lvl 52 hammer will give much less quality per touch since it's 3 levels below the recipe.

The results are as follows:

Using HQ lvl 52 tool with melds
Total Craftsmanship = 668
Total Control = 659

Basic Touch #1 = 269
Basic Touch #2 = 320
Basic Touch #3 = 372
Basic Touch #4 = 425

CS II progress = 247


Using NQ lvl 57 tool
Craftsmanship = 678
Control = 659

Basic Touch #1 = 269
Basic Touch #2 = 320
Basic Touch #3 = 372
Basic Touch #4 = 425

CS II progress = 251

Conclusion:
Both hammers give IDENTICAL amounts of quality per touch.
I am unable to verify what Ksenia had described.
I would consider it myth BUSTED.
There is one caveat in this experiment, and that is me being level 60 while Ksenia is level 56.
However, considering the fact that we're talking about i170 on this thread here, we should safely assume everybody to be level 60 (or they won't be able to wear the i170 at all anyway).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

No, she is justifying.

i170 is i170.

stats make it easier but in terms of iLevel, the NQ is still getting the same treatment.

Let me give you and example.

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

I did this with Weaver.

Our character is a mannequin. Everything is tied to gear level now. Stats are important and while it is obvious you want as much as you can get at end game, if you end up in NQ blue, you will still be capable of executing all recipes for the 60 level, even the 3 star we are eventually going to get.

---

Challenge accepted; and a pointless one at that. With this craft, I can confirm that it's strictly stats, and that you might need to reconsider the rotation that you're using:
http://i.imgur.com/UFGDw60.jpg

I crafted an Aurum Regis Texture Hammer (recipe level 60) and level 60, with an HQ level 52 main hand and a level 53 off-hand (for good measure), because according to your logic, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere near 94% quality, let alone 17% considering the 8, yes, 8 whole levels of difference, between my tools, and the level of the craft. If you think that I should try again with a level 60 belt and rings (those are the two-star green items that you see in the picture), then I can, but that invalidates your point that it's the tools' item level that are the important part.

P.S. I didn't cheat by using HQ materials; all of the materials used in that craft were normal quality.

P.S.S. I just went and tried a level 57 recipe (Titanium Battleaxe -- I don't trust my stats to do a level 60 craft) with the level 52 main hand and level 53 off-hand, using my old artisan i60 gear from level 50 (I kept it for nostalgia purposes), minus accessories and belt (I used unmelded holy cedar HQ accessories, and a holy rainbow apron HQ melded with a piety III materia for spirit bonding purposes). According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

SNIP

---

LOL, we did the same thing! XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

LOL, we did the same thing! XD

---

great minds think alike ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

---

As Caimie and Techno have already pointed out your statement is inaccurate. I tested this theory out during the first week of heavensward as I was one of the first insane pushing hard to max all 60 on our server. During the process we were doing wacky stuff like making HQ gear replacements while 2-3 levels under the required recipe with main and offhands which were also under optimal level. Success is purely driven by the stats of your overall gear, not by the iLevel. This has always been true for crafting as far as I've known (fairly sure this was true in beta too). Quality gains specifically are driven by your paper doll control stat listing (including any inner quiet modifiers), the difference between your level and the recipe level, the current step <condition>, and the skill chosen to use. Likewise these can be modified by certain skills to amplify the effects.

---

I will admit when you posed your first comment Ksenia, one assumption I've made in my first post is that V materia won't be available at reasonable prices in patch 3.1. If V materia is available is available and doesn't cost an arm and a leg then NQ two star items could potentially be maxed out using V materia. But I would bet all the nana bears in the world that V materia prices will stay super high during 3.1 for this to be a valid consideration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katlyna

I will admit when you posed your first comment Ksenia, one assumption I've made in my first post is that V materia won't be available at reasonable prices in patch 3.1. If V materia is available is available and doesn't cost an arm and a leg then NQ two star items could potentially be maxed out using V materia. But I would bet all the nana bears in the world that V materia prices will stay super high during 3.1 for this to be a valid consideration.

---

You can't max out stats even with V materias on an HQ item :v. An NQ would come nowhere near close and would at best have the same stats as an HQ without materia (give or take 3~5 points) of the NQ was melded as much has it can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TechnoTechie

According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

---

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar. Still, I don't mind standing corrected and I will modify this to a degree. (I am learning here, I am not trying to be a know it all) The objectives are to figure out what I am doing.

- One thing I thought about after I logged out, if they follow pattern and so far they have, they might send us down the false requirements path they did in 2.0 and force us to HQ in order to graduate gear. (like Lucis gear) In such case, we are going to HQ, like it or not. Alternative, the turn in for lucis will void the need to HQ as long as you can HQ the tertiary items required.

- Not to seem like I'm being anal here but you just got a level 60 Aurum Regis Texture hammer 98% HQ with 52 and 53 tools and you want me to believe I 'need' HQ at level?

- My correction: The trouble is, you had enough gear at 60 to increase your gear check but I know they average and with a 52 main, 53 off hand, your average level should have tanked so yes, that puts my 'theory' to rest.

- final word from me: They already told us we won't need HW going forward. In any 4.0 expansions, we will be free to enter without requisite. As such, I don't need to focus on this content and have shifted focus on leveling alts. Rather than fixate on the BiS of the moment, I am abandoning HW to prepare for 4.00 and thank SqEnix for that. The quest wall I avoided in 2.0 is keeping me out of HW and I'm still avoiding it like a plague. It left me no other crafting content but Alt building.

TY for confirming I am just under stat. Craftsmanship high enough and I don't need HQ anything. Just enough mats to RnG my way through everything. Back to voiding HW with a quest wall, I don't need to deal with red script. I got locked out. Master III as well for that matter. Sorry if it seemed like I used you but well, I did.

Err, are people really saying that stat numbers aren't important for endgame crafting? In 2.x, there were several points of time where you needed nearly maxed melds with the best stuff just to reach the mandatory minimum requirement for the highest tier of crafting. Are you saying that you'll be able to hit the requirements for 60*** items with all NQ? I'd really like to see that... Heck, all NQ barely gets you enough for 60** right now.

With Artisan's, you could use meld NQ to max for all pieces except the chest, so it didn't matter as much if the item was NQ or HQ. HQ just let you save some money on melding. Also, the items had three material slots, so melds weren't that bad even with the NQ.

With the 60** items, you can't max some of the HQs even with all grade V materia. You certainly can't max an NQ item, which is worse than the HQ level 60 equivalent.


Someone suggested eating food to make up the difference between NQ and HQ, but I don't understand. How do you use two foods at once? I already need food to hit the minimum mandatory control requirements for 60** crafts.


It would be really nice if the penalty for failing a 60** synth, which is ultimately at the whim of RNG, was a bit less. As it stands, it's extremely steep - if you get an NQ item, it's worthless for anything except glamour, and class-specific crafter glamour isn't terribly popular. If you fail on a 60** mainhand, your only real recourse is to list it on the MB and hope someone buys it without looking closely at the stats. Or, I guess, if they want to gamble with desynth, but that's going to be a bad deal unless the tool is under a third of the price of a 60** material (and it takes 4 of those to make a tool).


Desynth isn't very good for getting your stuff back, but you can try it if you want. With Desynth, you will only get one item type back, and chances are high that it won't be the valuable one. And, you will be randomly given between 1 and the number of the item in the synth, so if you desynth an HQ BSM body, you might get 4x Astral Silk back, or you might get 1x Astral Silk, or you might get 1x Chimerical Felt.

The gear is r180 (despite being i170), so with 180 dSkill, you have a 50% chance of success with no bonuses. You can raise that if you pentameld it first with garbage materia (+25%) and eat your Tinker's Bacon (+15%), for a max desynth chance of 90%. Still worse than reclaiming would have been - same chance, except Reclaim gets everything back when it works.


In conclusion, unless SE changes something, you want to Reclaim if your final 60** synth has an HQ chance of 90% or less.



EDIT: OP, your idea of higher quality having the same stats but more meld slots is awesome. I doubt they'd ever do it, but even just HQ = +2, PQ = +3 would be great. Or even, HQ = +1 and PQ = +2. PQ doesn't need 5 to be awesome. Imagine a mainhand tool with 3 meld slots instead of 1. I'd sure love that!

Crafted won't be relevant to raids until 3.2, please look forward to it.

I agree that melding is getting excessively more expensive as stat gaps get higher and higher. I think the materia system in a poorly, lazily designed system. I don't particularly agree with the idea of perfect quality. If they introduce perfect quality then nothing will have changed: PQ will replace HQ as the new gold standard and NQ/HQ will be considered failures.

The issue with the current HQ system, that the stat gaps have made blindingly obvious, is that NQ is more or less another way of failing a synth. A synth that was filled to 98% HQ and a synth that got to 1% HQ should not have any potential to produce an identical piece. Something as simple as 100% HQ representing max stats and materia being used as a post process fix to get it to 100% in a manner akin to the Novus weapon would work. If they use the Novus template then the stat values on the materia wouldn't matter. So maybe a 1% HQ piece would need like 25 Craftsmanship materia (5 of each tier), but at 20% it needs only 20 (5x I-IV) and maybe at 80% it'd just need 5 tier Is. Once again similar to how the Novus scrolls require higher tiers the higher up the stat goes.

If they must keep the materia system in then at the very least something like this would seem more logical. Frankly, I'd rather them scrap the RNG melding system complete and just treat materia like gem socketing in any other competently designed MMO. Any piece (even token gear) can be socketed with gems. Then instead of balancing crafted gear around materia melding they can just have crafted gear with their own fixed stats that are directly comparable to token gear without requiring min/max melding to make the missing stats.

And ffs what is the point of having an ilvl if the stats on the gear is completely unrelated to the ilvl on the piece. As you pointed out some how HQ i150 White gear have essentially the same stats as NQ i170. You'd think the ilvl should change with quality and the addition of materia?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You can't max out stats even with V materias on an HQ item :v. An NQ would come nowhere near close and would at best have the same stats as an HQ without materia (give or take 3~5 points) of the NQ was melded as much has it can.

---

Both our last two statements are partially correct and incorrect. My comment about the availability of cheep V materia being able to solve part of the problem is true for all slots EXCEPT mainhands/offhands/body. Your statement about not being able to max out the stats is true for mainhands/offhands/body.

So we both made blanket statements that somewhat missed. Reguardless cheep V materia isn't going to be available any time in the near future. And I think from your comment we both concur the stat gaps are too large between NQ and HQ. And you were pointing out the stat gaps between mainhands/offhands/body are even more unreasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sibyll

I don't particularly agree with the idea of perfect quality. If they introduce perfect quality then nothing will have changed: PQ will replace HQ as the new gold standard and NQ/HQ will be considered failures.

---

Offering of a "perfect quality" by itself would not fix anything but would be an interesting thing to add IF and ONLY IF the base problem itself were fixed. The base problem itself being the stat gaps between NQ and HQ are unacceptably large, and the materia system at this point is complete garbage with nearly un-obtainable V materia. And the rest of the materia slowly getting harder to acquire as more people stop crafting. At one point during 2.x I found the materia system to be brilliant when materia was widely available, multiple teirs of crafting were available, and different iLev+strict materia melds set crafters apart in teirs.

Now it appears SE wanted to shift away from materia melds being key and simply time invested in tokens being what would push crafters into future tiers. The problem being the time cost became not crafting for weekly scrips but spending hours gathering materials. This then all accumulates into a single item attempt, where a NQ currently appears to be a failure from everything we know about required stats and what a large difference between max and min means (in a single item slot).

These issues all just take what could have been an interesting way to tier crafters (time spent crafting/gathering tokens each week) into a horrible 90% gathering system followed by a single crafting attempt where you desperately hope all your time doesn't go flying out the window.

Don't get me wrong I don't want a trivial system either where the difference between NQ and HQ is non existent. But making the difference something very important (requiring much stricter melds or less guaranteed melds) vs what very well be a non functioning item to reach three star requirements is something I think the crafting system is in desperate need of fixing.

tl:dr

In another attempt to make a game 'hard' they have taken rigidity to the extreme and now have nowhere to go with it.

we theory craft because we can't afford to experiment in game and we are left spinning our wheels because it's all leading to the same conclusions. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

SqEnix want to have their cake and eat it too. So do we.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar. Still, I don't mind standing corrected and I will modify this to a degree. (I am learning here, I am not trying to be a know it all) The objectives are to figure out what I am doing.
...
- Not to seem like I'm being anal here but you just got a level 60 Aurum Regis Texture hammer 98% HQ with 52 and 53 tools and you want me to believe I 'need' HQ at level?

---

No one said anything about not needing HQ. If you made that assumption, then I think you might be mistaken. The issue is that if I can craft an HQ i150 item and have it be as good as an i170 item, then why bother crafting an i170 item when you can make the i150 HQ for 1/10000th of the cost? Of course the HQ'd i170 would completely dwarf the HQ i150 in stats, and currently (as the OP stated) NQ means that the item is at less than full potential; i.e. it's not the item level that it says it is if it's normal quality. ... But if you're taking 7 careful synthesis IIs to complete progress then that's where your HQ gear will be "needed", or you would meld your lower level gear to compensate. Are you perhaps still using a chest piece that's under level 52? (because it sounds like you're using level 45-49 gear if it takes 7 careful synthesis IIs... that might be something to fix first)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

- My correction: The trouble is, you had enough gear at 60 to increase your gear check but I know they average and with a 52 main, 53 off hand, your average level should have tanked so yes, that puts my 'theory' to rest.
...
TY for confirming I am just under stat. Craftsmanship high enough and I don't need HQ anything. Just enough mats to RnG my way through everything. Back to voiding HW with a quest wall, I don't need to deal with red script. I got locked out. Master III as well for that matter. Sorry if it seemed like I used you but well, I did.

---

If you take a look at the second craft I did, then item level isn't even a factor in that. Your stats might not be the issue, but your rotation could probably use work. RNG did help me a lot, but that was because I underestimated the craft and thought I could HQ with 10 stacks of inner quiet. apparently I needed 11, and the innovation that I was hesitant to press. Yes, I did HQ something with under leveled gear, but that's because the game was designed for you to be able to progress step-by-step. If I were to try to HQ the level 60 craft with the level 52 gear, the game would have told me no, and to upgrade to at least 55 HQ or 57 NQ(which is basically the same item level as 54-55, because it's lowered potential from NQ)

And if you're going to attempt the next expansion without heavensward gear, then I don't imagine it would be anywhere near plausible. Have fun NQing the 99 pieces of gear before you randomly get your HQ -- We crafters are gearing specifically to prevent requiring the massive amount of materials it would take to do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar.

---

So far, with the exception of some furniture, no items in this game should require more than 6 steps for completion. It if takes 7 CS II to complete it, you have to change something. There are a number of ways to rectify this problem. You may:
(1) gear up better to get more craftsmanship
(2) eat a Baked Onion Soup, which adds a lot of craftsmanship + CP
(3) have Ingenuity II active when you use CS II
(4) use Name of [element] + Brand of [element] 1 or 2 times before you use CS II. The brand will give a lot of progress and shorten the number of steps by a lot.
(5) use Rapid Syn under Steady Hand II to shorten the number of steps.
(6) meld some competence materia (but really, this is totally unnecessary before level 60).
Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)

---

Then as was previously mentioned, you need to adjust your rotation. That 35 Durability can kill you if you don't have a proper rotation.

This is dangerously close to being a request to just get rid of HQ's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

This is dangerously close to being a request to just get rid of HQ's.

---

I concur the difference should be dangerously close but satisfying. After sitting and thinking more I think for simplicity sake I would probably personally simply make NQ and HQ stats equal leave NQ with 1-2 slots and HQ with 3-4 slots. This would make NQ a frown, and HQ a super YES. I would also increase the difficulty of HQ such that all of us would be NQing more often. And I would make sure max melds are possible given available materia (NQ melds should be relatively expensive, while HQ would be only a moderate cost. While I would love a third quality (making the system more granular) I doubt there is space to implement something like this in a reasonable timeline.

The above changes would make the system less frustrating and more rewarding to players of all experience and gear levels IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katlyna

The above changes would make the system less frustrating and more rewarding to players of all experience and gear levels IMO.

---

Another way of putting that is: it would make crafting less challenging and lower the relative value of achieving HQ. That's sort of "Everyone gets a trophy," and not much fun in my opinion, like putting an "Easy button" on Savage content.

After all, it's dead simple to NQ any recipe you qualify to craft, and you're proposing that all the skill and luck that is required to obtain HQ just gives two extra materia slots? I prefer the current system: a challenging system where overcoming risks is nicely rewarded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverbane

Another way of putting that is: it would make crafting less challenging and lower the relative value of achieving HQ. That's sort of "Everyone gets a trophy," and not much fun in my opinion, like putting an "Easy button" on Savage content.

After all, it's dead simple to NQ any recipe you qualify to craft, and you're proposing that all the skill and luck that is required to obtain HQ just gives two extra materia slots? I prefer the current system: a challenging system where overcoming risks is nicely rewarded.

---

Right but... exactly how skill based is HQing an item? Don't get me wrong a more skilled crafter has and knows a number of tricks. But NQ items are not the result of a failure of skill. They're a failure of extremely bad RNG.

With that said, my proposal would work best with a LQ, NQ, HQ... where LQ is what current NQ is (basically worthless and 20 ilevels lower). And the bar for that would be something like reach 50-60% quality at least.

---

But you are right and Alistaire said it best "This is dangerously close to being a request to just get rid of HQ's." Don't get me wrong I enjoy skill based progression and a world where HQ has meaning and NQ is annoying but acceptable. But if you recall during 2.x crafting with four star Artisan and foragers gear (not including Mainhand/Offhand/Chest) NQ could be maxed out with materia. But making NQ was none the less frustrating, but the good still had value. It was maybe 20-30% of the HQ value (which on some servers was under material prices later in the 2.x cycle). But IMO this was not a bad place for crafting to be at. And I think most people would concur crafting was healthier during the 4 star patch cycles.

Right now the difference between NQ and HQ is just unacceptable if you ask me.

Instead of going for new ideas of having more materia slots, I say we should just get back to the original proposition of closing the gap between NQ and HQ. I mean, look at this:
http://i.imgur.com/zRP1Hcw.png
26 Craftsmanship difference and 8 Control???!!! That's just ridiculously much. If you NQ-ed it at 80% HQ rate, it's functionally useless since it's no difference from an HQ i150.
What if, the difference in Craft is like 12 and difference in Control like 4. Then at least NQ still has a chance to function. Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Instead of going for new ideas of having more materia slots, I say we should just get back to the original proposition of closing the gap between NQ and HQ. I mean, look at this:
http://i.imgur.com/zRP1Hcw.png
26 Craftsmanship difference and 8 Control???!!! That's just ridiculously much. If you NQ-ed it at 80% HQ rate, it's functionally useless since it's no difference from an HQ i150.
What if, the difference in Craft is like 12 and difference in Control like 4. Then at least NQ still has a chance to function. Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

---

I'd chalk that up more to the stupid amount of time it takes to get it. NQ is suitable for materia destined spirit bond but who wants to convert something that took 3 weeks to get? That's how you end up with materia costing millions of gil

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katlyna

Right but... exactly how skill based is HQing an item? Don't get me wrong a more skilled crafter has and knows a number of tricks. But NQ items are not the result of a failure of skill. They're a failure of extremely bad RNG.

---

Some people prefer chess, others prefer poker.

Crafting is like poker: a lot depends on the cards you draw, but a skilled player can somewhat compensate for bad luck.
Some people choose rotations that minimize the impact of bad luck, others choose ones that create more opportunities is for good luck. And you can adapt in mid-craft if you know how.

And the RNG does not seem that bad. I've only crafted six L60 2-Stars tools so far, plus the required number of 2-star mats, and only 2 mats have come out NQ. None of the tool have. Someone else reported doing 20 HQ crafts without any NQ. So I don't see the odds being all that bad. But the stakes are pretty high - and I like it that way. YMMV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

---

I think that's an overstatement. NQ i170 can be melded higher than HQ i150, after all.
Hopefully we'll be able to convert i170 to tier 5 materia, but that's only wishful thinking right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverbane

I think that's an overstatement. NQ i170 can be melded higher than HQ i150, after all.

---

Well, I don't think it's an overstatement. Here is my HQ i150 with melds:
http://i.imgur.com/s0Hum4g.png
As you can see, we're already using so many Tier IV already. Yea, you can meld the NQ i170 higher than the HQ i150, but at what cost? ...Especially when you know that even if you use 2x Tier V, you still can't max the cap, which means it'll still be inferior to the HQ i170 and the traded i180 by a lot... You might just end up with a very similar meld as the HQ i150 (except CP materia, of course).

Let's say you use 1x Tier V (+11 Craft), 3x Tier IV (+6 Craft, +6 Craft, +4 Control) and 1x Tier III (+3 Control). Then you would have spent millions, adding 23 Craft and 7 Control.
The total stats on the NQ i170 will be 222 Craft, 69 Control, 3 CP.
My HQ i150 above has 216 Craft, 62 Control, 3 CP... and in the end, I added 5 more Craft with a Competence III, so the final stats are 221 Craft, 62 Control, 3 CP.
Unless that extra 1 Craft & 7 Control is a game changer, I might as well just stick to my HQ i150, and avoid wasting all those materia on the NQ i170. And if I'm avoiding those expensive melds, then the i170 won't ever even have a chance to function. It'll be nearly as weak as the HQ i150.

(IMO, it's not even worth using a Tier V unless it's a share gear...)

I'd love more meld slots on HQ.. Haven't bothered to go past unmelded shared 60 gear because I don't like buying materia, so overmeldind IV's for an overall "temporary" set hurts. I'm holding out to see what 3.1 brings while leveling battle classes. RNG is too nasty and I don't want to deal with a NQ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverbane

Crafting is like poker: a lot depends on the cards you draw, but a skilled player can somewhat compensate for bad luck.

And the RNG does not seem that bad.

---

The odds of an NQ are really low if you craft carefully and aren't bottle-necked by excessively low CP. At 440 CP, I had 2 NQs out of around 30 2* materials and at 455 CP, I've gotten no NQs out of around 40 crafts in total (materials and final crafts). This gives me an overall HQ yield of roughly 97% (no NQ gear pieces or tools) and a 100% HQ yield since my CP upgrades. Sooner or later, I should be getting more NQ materials because not all of my crafts are at 100%, although the majority of them are. Fortunately, the final crafts are usually not a problem at all because your starting quality can be fairly high.

That said, I do agree that the stats of an NQ tool/gear piece should probably be closer to the HQ stats to give them some value. Ideally, I think a player should be able to meet the 3* requirements with a setup consisting of mostly melded HQ gear, with allowances for one or two melded NQ pieces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverbane

And the RNG does not seem that bad. I've only crafted six L60 2-Stars tools so far, plus the required number of 2-star mats, and only 2 mats have come out NQ. None of the tool have. Someone else reported doing 20 HQ crafts without any NQ. So I don't see the odds being all that bad. But the stakes are pretty high - and I like it that way. YMMV.

---

So functionally speaking NQ vs HQ doesn't matter to me at all. I HQ 99% of my items and what I don't HQ my wallet can handle. The problem I have with the system is how do I advice others to enter into this mess when the stakes are so high? Right now all I can honestly tell others getting into high end crafting, is take it easy, practice lots, review your rotations, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, if you're looking to go to the very end it takes a huge amount of dedication and runs serious risks until you under stand the system.

Problem is with the stakes so high almost no one makes it through the gate to this mess of red scrip crafting. I think many things need to change to get the system working for more people.

Don't get me wrong I've been crafting for a long time now and enjoy the risk, the large piles of gil on the line, and knowing my skill is well up to the challenge. Unfortunately very few of us are at this point though, and its due to a rather flawed system ;-/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katlyna

It's really weird because they wanted to: Make crafting more accessible, reduce the need for cross-class skills

---

And that's a great success ! You can craft top-end gear without using a single post-50 skill. They're all junk.