Are MNKs still desired?

I know MNK's bring quite a bit higher damage than the other 2 melee, but is the extra damage that they bring outclassed by the utility that the other 2 bring? DRG is almost mandatory for piercing debuff and litany helps solidify their position. MNK's real rival seems to be NIN and their trick attack debuff. Just want some input as I am thinking about switching jobs to something else and for ping purposes, MNK seems to be the best choice (no double popped OGCDs).

Mnk is perfectly fine right now and Mnk/Drg is a strong combo. That being said, Nin doesn't have have any important double weaving either, unless you're talking about Mudra's. Since SE announced that Mudra's will be adjusted to be smoother with 3.1, you may wait until then and see how it goes before you make a final decision.

MNK is arguably in a better position than NIN right now, with better overall damage in both single target, and aoe, and better defensive utility with traited mantra. NIN only beats a monk out if everyone in your group is squeezing out every ounce of damage they can when your trick attack is up, at this point.

Im currently maining mnk in a mnk/drg static, im usually always top dps and our group cleared a3s. Id say mnk is in a good place and melee balance is the best its ever been tbh. Nin just needs mudras fixed and maybe an aoe buff or tp fix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ephier

utility

---

The last bastion of the desperate DRG. If you're good enough at MNK--or any job, for that matter--nobody is going to kick you from the party for lack of "utility."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ephier

I know MNK's bring quite a bit higher damage than the other 2 melee, but is the extra damage that they bring outclassed by the utility that the other 2 bring? DRG is almost mandatory for piercing debuff and litany helps solidify their position. MNK's real rival seems to be NIN and their trick attack debuff. Just want some input as I am thinking about switching jobs to something else and for ping purposes, MNK seems to be the best choice (no double popped OGCDs).

---

Dont you main mch? Is this a troll thread?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trailmix9999

Dont you main mch? Is this a troll thread?

---

I mained MNK from 2.0-2.4 and went to NIN then MCH for 3.0. My main issue is I live in Europe but play on NA servers because raid times. Then I noticed MNK is probably the class least affected by ping which is why I am asking the question. MCH is a very tight class and with my current ping I do not think I can play it optimally. Basically no. I'm not trolling I just want to know if its worth the swap.

it is. monks are highly desired. people like to make out like ninja is required over a monk, but dont take into account that everyone gear is improving weekly and that monk also recently got buffed. monk is higher dps than ninja even with trick attack.

dragon kick debuff isnt too shaby either...my group has a paly and warrior combo with no monk..XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

monk is higher dps than ninja even with trick attack.

---

That is pretty much what I wanted to know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ephier

I mained MNK from 2.0-2.4 and went to NIN then MCH for 3.0. My main issue is I live in Europe but play on NA servers because raid times. Then I noticed MNK is probably the class least affected by ping which is why I am asking the question. MCH is a very tight class and with my current ping I do not think I can play it optimally. Basically no. I'm not trolling I just want to know if its worth the swap.

---

my ping is kinda high as well and i've had zero problems with mnk but nin is just annoying to play, cant wait for the mudra fix in 3.1. ah didnt know mch was affected that much by ping.

Yep, a great MNK is always welcome.

Best single target DPS, they are usually above Nin by 150+ so that alone makes up for Trick Attack.

Your only choice will be Goad or Mantra? DRG is a must for world progression but you can down shit early with a MNK/NiN set up also.

Monk is definitely in a really good place right now being the highest single target DPS, and being arguably the best aoe of all 3 melee dps. While slightly lacking in the utility department when compared to DRG and NIN, it is still a class worth bringing for any fight. If you like it, go for it.

I'm always impressed when someone plays a Monk, i've always found it extremely difficult to play properly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meow9000

Monk is definitely in a really good place right now being the highest single target DPS, and being arguably the best aoe of all 3 melee dps. While slightly lacking in the utility department when compared to DRG and NIN, it is still a class worth bringing for any fight. If you like it, go for it.

---

Nothing to really argue about mnk aoe category, they are definitely highest ST and 99% sure they far out class drg and nin in aoe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

it is. monks are highly desired. people like to make out like ninja is required over a monk, but dont take into account that everyone gear is improving weekly and that monk also recently got buffed. monk is higher dps than ninja even with trick attack.

---

If that's true Monk DPS is insane, considering TA is supposed to be the reason NIN has to have lower DPS than the other melees according to the most people. I haven't looked too hard into the new rotation since getting my Monk to 60 but damn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

If that's true Monk DPS is insane, considering TA is supposed to be the reason NIN has to have lower DPS than the other melees according to the most people. I haven't looked too hard into the new rotation since getting my Monk to 60 but damn.

---

Have to remember TA doesnt only affect nin but the rest of the raid group including other dps, tanks and healers (if they decide to dps). So i dont think another 150 dps from monk will be enough to make up for TAs utility.

What monch said. I think with the buff monk got just bring them neck and neck with nin or slightly below them applying TA. It doesn't make it like omg we dint need nin anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monchkinz

Have to remember TA doesnt only affect nin but the rest of the raid group including other dps, tanks and healers (if they decide to dps). So i dont think another 150 dps from monk will be enough to make up for TAs utility.

---

Oh, then I misunderstood. I thought the other guy was saying Monk's DPS was still higher even when you are counting NIN Trick Attack's effect on everyone (not just the NIN), which would have been ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monchkinz

Have to remember TA doesnt only affect nin but the rest of the raid group including other dps, tanks and healers (if they decide to dps). So i dont think another 150 dps from monk will be enough to make up for TAs utility.

---

It's about even comparing DPS gained from TA versus the extra dps from monk, especially the longer a fight goes.

monk dps is still about 30 dps or so higher than ninja counting trick attack.

ofc the numbers fluxuate but a monk is def doing more damage than ninjas easily right now. ninja is better for burst phases, monk is way higher overall.

MNK and NIN are very well balanced right now. DRG is a little OP but not excessively.

MNK has just-barely the highest single target DPS, but doesn't bring anything else to the table. That's FINE, and does a lot to differentiate the different melee jobs.
When all the NIN group buffs settle out, NIN usually offers more total raid damage. It can be hard for ninjas to look past their own personal numbers. NIN is in great shape and their most legitimate complaint (Mudra-lag) will probably be addressed next patch.

Most raid groups start with a DRG, and then add either a MNK or a NIN. The two jobs are close enough that either can be added to a group depending on availability, friends, favorites etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spagnutty

MNK and NIN are very well balanced right now. DRG is a little OP but not excessively.

MNK has just-barely the highest single target DPS, but doesn't bring anything else to the table. That's FINE, and does a lot to differentiate the different melee jobs.
When all the NIN group buffs settle out, NIN usually offers more total raid damage. It can be hard for ninjas to look past their own personal numbers. NIN is in great shape and their most legitimate complaint (Mudra-lag) will probably be addressed next patch.

Most raid groups start with a DRG, and then add either a MNK or a NIN. The two jobs are close enough that either can be added to a group depending on availability, friends, favorites etc.

---

monks are doing on average about 150 more dps than other melee, last i checked, 150 dps is a lot and by no means "just barely" they also bring traited mantra which does wonders in heavy raid damage encounters like as3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

monks are doing on average about 150 more dps than other melee, last i checked, 150 dps is a lot and by no means "just barely" they also bring traited mantra which does wonders in heavy raid damage encounters like as3.

---

Let's see. Dragoon was highest personal single target dps before monk got the 2.36% buff. The math is easy enough, I'm not going to elaborate any further. Yes, they're now "just barely" higher than dragoon. The difference between nin and mnk in personal st dps is around the 150 range at current item levels, that's correct.

Traited mantra is nice to have especially for progression, but by no means a tool that notably increases raid dps. Even if it's like two medica's less for the whm to cast, that's only two additional dps spell he gets in, on a 2 minute timer (though you wouldn't use it on cd, only in those heavy raid dmg situations). That's negligible. It really only makes surviving shit easier in the first place and it loses even more effectiveness with more gear, while the dps increasing utility of nin and drg gets even better.

It allows your healers to dps more, so it does bring value. its not meant to be offensive utility correct, but in this dps is everything metagame, anything that gives you "two globals" to dps matters. im not gonna argue that with you because its silly, its useful for healers. i didnt say mantra was better than trick attack, i said that monks brought it. usually when people desire certain classes, its for a progression group, of course mantra gets worse with gear, you probably dont need a heal increase by time you have fights on farm and are ilevel 205. monks bring mantra.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

monks are doing on average about 150 more dps than other melee, last i checked, 150 dps is a lot and by no means "just barely" they also bring traited mantra which does wonders in heavy raid damage encounters like as3.

---

You're pulling numbers out of your butt.
Leaderboards don't show a 150 dps average difference between drg and mnk. (Single target, anyway.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wsLaoo/pubhtml
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=18

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You're pulling numbers out of your butt.
Leaderboards don't show a 150 dps average difference between drg and mnk. (Single target, anyway.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...wsLaoo/pubhtml
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=18

---

They don't even show a 150 dps difference between mnk and nin, lon. ^^ Well, at least in A1s and A3s they don't...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrCookTM

They don't even show a 150 dps difference between mnk and nin, lon. ^^ Well, at least in A1s and A3s they don't...

---

If you average the top 5 submissions -93.56 for a1s, and -107.66 for a3s in favor of monk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monchkinz

Have to remember TA doesnt only affect nin but the rest of the raid group including other dps, tanks and healers (if they decide to dps). So i dont think another 150 dps from monk will be enough to make up for TAs utility.

---

IIRC Trick Attack is about a 1% dps increase overall. If mnk does 100 more dps than the nin you'd have to have 10,000 raid dps for TA to catch up. Of course TA's contribution is situational, on a burn phase it helps more than 1%.

So, to the OP, yes MNK should very much be desired

EDIT: I redid the math and it's 1.6% increase if I did that right. Need 6250 raid dps for it to "equal" 100 extra monk dps. And really that's with perfect TA uptime, which is likely not going to happen in most environments.

Not 100% on this but I am pretty sure monk is in a very good spot for AoE dps which is something... of course I could be totally wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RocheKat

Not 100% on this but I am pretty sure monk is in a very good spot for AoE dps which is something... of course I could be totally wrong.

---

Yes, monk has easily the highest potential sustained aoe dps (purification and elixir field are awesome). Just look at the A2S charts :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

If you average the top 5 submissions -93.56 for a1s, and -107.66 for a3s in favor of monk



IIRC Trick Attack is about a 1% dps increase overall. If mnk does 100 more dps than the nin you'd have to have 10,000 raid dps for TA to catch up. Of course TA's contribution is situational, on a burn phase it helps more than 1%.

So, to the OP, yes MNK should very much be desired

EDIT: I redid the math and it's 1.6% increase if I did that right. Need 6250 raid dps for it to "equal" 100 extra monk dps. And really that's with perfect TA uptime, which is likely not going to happen in most environments.

---

It is more around the 2% range. If it was a flat 10% increase every minutenit would be 1,67%, a small delay sometimes doesn't matter as long as you get the same amount of TA's off in a fight. What makes it more than 1,67% is the fact that players sync their cooldowns with TA, let alone the opener.

Yes they are still desired. Especially if there is no drk present.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrCookTM

It is more around the 2% range. If it was a flat 10% increase every minutenit would be 1,67%, a small delay sometimes doesn't matter as long as you get the same amount of TA's off in a fight. What makes it more than 1,67% is the fact that players sync their cooldowns with TA, let alone the opener.

---

It's can't be more than 1.67%, it's a 10% buff with 16% uptime, it can't ever exceed that. Any time it's delayed reduces it's effectiveness as that translates to decreased uptime. All I'm saying is it's very unlikely to be up every 60 sec without fail, so the effective dps increase is less than 1.67% overall.

As for syncing CDs. I understand the concept of synergy, however, I just don't see how it can possible increase more than 10% since that's exactly what it says it does. Like, if I pop B4B and have a TA, that's 30% + 10%, it doesn't magically become 42% because they are executed at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's can't be more than 1.67%, it's a 10% buff with 16% uptime, it can't ever exceed that. Any time it's delayed reduces it's effectiveness as that translates to decreased uptime. All I'm saying is it's very unlikely to be up every 60 sec without fail, so the effective dps increase is less than 1.67% overall.

As for syncing CDs. I understand the concept of synergy, however, I just don't see how it can possible increase more than 10% since that's exactly what it says it does. Like, if I pop B4B and have a TA, that's 30% + 10%, it doesn't magically become 42% because they are executed at the same time.

---

Let's use example numbers here. If your Raid does 6000 total raid dps over a fight and this is increased by a 10% buff with 16,7% uptime, that's a 1.67% incrase. However, these 6000 raid dps are the average value of high burst phases with cooldowns, lower dps phases when cooldowns are on cd and even phase transitions with no dps at all (talking unmerged here ofc). TA is used during the opener when all cd's are up, sometimes even twice in a fight, and in between is used with whatever cd's are available, it is obviously never used during downtime. It snapshots phases where the spike dps is usually higher than the average value at the end of the fight, thus the dps contribution of TA does in fact exceed 1,67% of the total damage done. If it wasn't like that it would be irrelevant if you sync it with cooldowns as long as you use it whenever abailable, which is obviously not the case.

But the CDs are going to happen with or without TA. I've never once been in a group where I was told to hold all my CDs until TA, that would prolly be a huge DPS loss for everyone being as how most offensive CDs are longer than 60 sec. There are points in some fights where everything lines up, at the beginning, phase transitions, etc. but it's mathematically impossible for it to contribute more than 1.67% of total damage dealt. It doesn't matter how much damage is dealt at any particular point, it's only going to increase it by 10%, and it's only going to be available for 10 seconds every 60.

MNK's are fine and do great DPS in raids. Only thing it really lacks is good DPS raid utility for other jobs. Depending on your composition a MNK might not be ideal, but really, that is for any job.

OK. Maybe I'm wrong. I tried to come up with a complex example and came out to around 2% increase.


1500 20 sec 30,000 (opener)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec 27,000 (cds coming back)
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec 52,000 (lull)
1350 20 sec 27,000
1450 20 sec 29,000 (cds)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec 27,000
325,000



1500 20 sec +10% 10 sec 1650 * 10, 1500 * 10 31,500 (1.050%)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec +10% 10 sec 1485 * 10, 1350 * 10 28,350 (5.000%)
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec +10% 10 sec 1430 * 10, 1300 * 30 53,300 (1.025%)
1350 20 sec 27,000
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec +10% 10 sec 1430 * 10, 1300 * 30 53,300 (1.025%)
1350 20 sec 28,350
331,800 (1.0209%)


If it could "never exceed' 1.67% then the total would only be 330,428. But it's more than that @ 2.09%

I give up lol

There are so many different things that affect TA's contribution raid DPS that it's impossible to give exact number for it; it will be different for every fight inside one group killing the same boss a hundred times. Around 2% would be good rough average for your every day calculations.

TA uptime also increases the sooner the boss dies after it drops off, so it's slightly higher than 16.7% almost always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

things

---

Your per cent markings are all over the place. I doubt you meant TA increases your damage only by 1.02% or 0.02%. The whole thing is also quite hard to decipher.

o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

item

---

out of my ass? haha no. cute though, lets try to be civil. i said last i checked, which is indicator that it wasnt going to be particularly accurate. lets take a look at those logs, as those were exactly what i was speaking of.

on the logs for living liquid, since lets be real, its the first actual savage fight, we have 16 monks in the top 20, theyre all doing, lets say about 1300. the top 16 dragoon parses are at about 1260 or so, and the top 16 ninja parses are at around 1200.

mind you im not doing any exact math here, but thats not too far off from my first number, and a good number of those parses dont even have a ninja for trick attack. thanks for being douchey and claiming im pulling things out of my ass, nice assumption, pal.

monks are very powerful and very desired, effectively replacing ninja very easily. Lets not even think about how few ninjas can even reach those numbers due to mudra lag. you could drop the antagonism and have a civil discussion, or you can continue being childish. shrug

Imagine if MCHs were doing blunt damage, do you think the MNK, NIN, MCH comp would be competitive? I don't like the idea of not having a DRG because of Disembowel and Battle Litany, but MNK DPS would win the trade vs. Battle Litany by far. NIN not only brings TA which is awesome, they also bring Goad, Shadewalker and Smoke Bomb which increases the DPS of the MT directly by a lot letting them do more non-enmity combos.

Back to real state of the game, atm MCHs are doing piercing damage, so I don't see the point of bringing a MNK to a really elitist raid. MNK dps is not worth losing the DRG or NIN advantages.

But indeed you can do the content with a MNK, they are going to be always #1 in the parse if we compare to the other 2 melees jobs in the current state of the game. They are really fun to play also and they can be played in EU without feeling frustrated.