How likely is Alex savage to be nerfed.

I ask simply because of SE's track record of doing so, many people don't seem to think so but i just have a feeling it will happen eventually. Thoughts?.

Did they nerf Coil savage?

Probably won't be outside of outgearing it. Savage Second Coil wasn't nerfed, we just got stronger. Alex Normal is already in place for easy mode raiding. But if they do decide to do so, Echo does the job.

It get nerfed with higher ilevel gears

Eventually? Most definitely.

Before 3.1 launches? I'd say unlikely, and if anything, I imagine some bug fixes that essentially make certain clear methods of A4S harder are incoming.

I know I haven't heard anyone asking for a savage nerf at all. I think most folks are more worried about their job balance and what changes they would like before messing with the current high tier raid at the moment.

Just my take on it actually.

I don't think it will be nerfed. Gearing up to out level isn't a nerf. Changing or dumbing down mechanics or adding echo is a nerf. I don't think the latter will happen.

A 100% chance. It will either be nerfed directly by implementation of Echo mechanic; that failing, the inevitable ilvl220+ gear will make it easier.

If they do a direct nerf I wouldn't count on it until 3.2 when they release the next wing of Alex.

They mostlikely won't nerf it anytime soon but it does make me chuckle a little when I think that Yoshida said raid content wasn't made with healer DPS in mind.
Thats an outright lie unless he talks about everyone being ilvl 208-210... :p

There's no real way to know, and it's tough to make assumptions based on Savage SCoB, because it was in a very different position from Savage Alexander.

Savage SCoB was not part of progression in any way, had no unique drops, no higher item level gear than was already available elsewhere, etc.

Savage Alex may be part of general progression (depending on the item level of Alex 2), has unique drops, and has higher item level gear than is (currently) available elsewhere.

Personally, I would be surprised if they changed any mechanics in Alex Savage, and don't anticipate that they'll put echo in, though that wouldn't surprised me. Most likely Void Ark will be i200, Alex 2 i220, new tomes i230, Alex 2 Savage i240, so that Alex Savage can be skipped over once it's not current.

Iirc, SCoB Savage doesn't even have Echo. So I'm thinking Alexander Savage might not be getting it.

As for the mechanics, I doubt they'll nerf anything.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

and has higher item level gear than is (currently) available elsewhere.

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Pretty shure, upgrade Mats will be available through the new 24 man instance and (maybe later) through .... Hunts.

I don't think Savage will get any nerfs or eche, because that is it for what the normal mode got introduced.

It's stupid to nerf Savage. There's already normal mode.

Like, c'mon.

(ALSO, if you're going to counterargument about the twines and stuffies, they'll eventually put them in Void Ark.)

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Eventually? Most definitely.

Before 3.1 launches? I'd say unlikely, and if anything, I imagine some bug fixes that essentially make certain clear methods of A4S harder are incoming.

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You mean like how they fixed the enrage method 'bug' from T2? Lol.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

There's no real way to know, and it's tough to make assumptions based on Savage SCoB, because it was in a very different position from Savage Alexander.

Savage SCoB was not part of progression in any way, had no unique drops, no higher item level gear than was already available elsewhere, etc.

Savage Alex may be part of general progression (depending on the item level of Alex 2), has unique drops, and has higher item level gear than is (currently) available elsewhere.

Personally, I would be surprised if they changed any mechanics in Alex Savage, and don't anticipate that they'll put echo in, though that wouldn't surprised me. Most likely Void Ark will be i200, Alex 2 i220, new tomes i230, Alex 2 Savage i240, so that Alex Savage can be skipped over once it's not current.

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This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. Savage Alexander actually has more in common with Normal mode Coil then it does Savage Coil(and normal Alex has more in common with crystal tower difficulty, slightly harder ill admit). There was a couple threads on that subject awhile back when we found out they were calling the harder mode of Alex (savage). Based on the description of the overall difficulty, people were confused why they called it "Savage" instead of simply calling it "Hard". The difficulty of Savage Alex is clearly more in line with normal mode coil, then it is with savage coil. If you compare how difficult it is compared with what normal mode Coil was back when we were still gearing up for it. It's really about the same. It's been my experience so far at least. So really the difficulty (Savage) is either mistranslated, or it was a mistake in naming conventions. It's very deceptive. If you ask most people that been around sense the beginning, that haven't tried savage, what they think Savage means. They'll most likely tell you it means impossible except for the extreme few elite. Which in this case it definitely isn't.

That all being said, I have to agree with others, that there would likely be at the very least, a echo buff somewhere down the line. And if there is one that does come, then it will certainly throw into question why they named it savage, instead of Hard.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

You mean like how they fixed the enrage method 'bug' from T2? Lol.

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Quite a quantitative difference between the two. Enrage method relies on poor design in the fight's mechanics. Taking 2 balls at once with your dead body relies on faulty netcode and using a mechanic in the game (death) in a way that clearly isn't intended, and most likely isn't functioning correctly.
The comparison falls somewhere inbetween T5's first clears that clearly abused a glitch, and the enrage method. It's a bit lame, albeit clever, to use the poor netcode the game has always had against it but it certainly doesn't take away from the fight as much as Twintania cheese did, there's still a substantial challenge in clearing the fight.

The issue with making comparions between Savage Coil and Savage Alexander is the matter of their presentation. Savage Coil only came to be because people were whining and complaining about the nerfs to Turns 1-5 'invalidating' everything they did (months ago). So Square implemented Savage to give those people something to do to reinflate their 'ego'. Savage Alexander was purposely designed for those people wanting that original Coil difficulty without the 'specter' of future nerfs. Normal Alexander is for those that want to enjoy the story of Alexander without having to deal with headaches of partying with the raid society's bickering. Because of this Square literally has no reason to nerf Savage Alexander. Normal may see nerfs in the future but Savage isn't blocking anyone from enjoying the story, which was one of the big reasons Coil was nerfed in the first place.

Making higher ilevel gear available is already a "nerf"

Looking how 90% of the best raids/trails have been nerfed (actually broken) with the BS (!) "unsynced mode", of course savage is gonna get nerfed

(still dont understand, how so few are complaining about the unsynced BS..., if at least you need to finish it once synced.. and/ or you get only none or half the gear unsynced, it could be ok-ish.... that way more would maybe get more to try it synced)

Alexander savage are the sort of fights that get easier with overgearing, similar to FCoB (unlike SCoB). They don't need direct nerfs.

Comparisons to 2nd coil savage don't really have a place here, even though they share a similar moniker. SCoB Savage existed purely as a "challenge mode", with its only rewards being titles. It stands to reason they wouldn't do anything (directly) to make it easier.

Alex Savage actually offers higher tier loot.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

You mean like how they fixed the enrage method 'bug' from T2? Lol.

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This really isn't a valid comparison at all. Yoshi plainly said the only reason they didn't fix T2 was because so many people had already accepted it as a strat and beat it via that strat before they could implement a fix. They felt nerfing that particular way to beat the fight would cause more harm then good, even though it involved cheesing past the one mechanic the dev team most probably wanted us to learn to deal with: Allagan Rot. When T2 enrage strat hit youtube, EVERYONE was trying it, and beating it within attempts. The damage was done almost overnight. They learned from their lesson though. Now we all have disgusting-level-hard enrages that hit us by 6 digit integers to make sure we can't overheal through them.

Such evolve.

Edit: To throw my 2 gil answer in to the OP, no I don't think they will touch the mechanics of Alex Savage or introduce Echo to it. I actually believe exactly what Ibi posted on the first page, about i-levels of gear allowing non-savage runners to not need savage gear to raid Alex 2 NM.

What would be the point of nerfing it. Since we already have Alex normal, nerfing the hard content is like the ultimate white flag to the whole "give me everything for nothing" crowd. It would be a sad day for gaming.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Snip.

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So you don't think Lucrezias clear is legit then? I mean why else would you believe it should be 'addressed' if not for that very reason.

Folk using the infamous pit in T5 to dodge Divebombs isn't necessarily intended either as you're able to move out of the vertical range of said Divebombs by clever use of the terrain.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The comparison falls somewhere inbetween T5's first clears that clearly abused a glitch

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As far I remember, it was a teleport hack. There was a spot above the arena, where you didn't fall down back to the floor and where you was out of range for any attacks.

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Originally Posted by Bhuni

So you don't think Lucrezias clear is legit then? I mean why else would you believe it should be 'addressed' if not for that very reason.

Folk using the infamous pit in T5 to dodge Divebombs isn't necessarily intended either as you're able to move out of the vertical range of said Divebombs by clever use of the terrain.

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I never said that.

The pit isn't, however, the glitches that allowed players to beat Twintania without her being able to act clearly are.

If the fight is still a challenge, then it's still in the spirit of the game to complete the fight in that matter. But being able to take damage while you're actually at zero health clearly isn't an intended mechanic.

It won't get nerfed at all. The only purpose to nerf the previous coils was because people got left out of story. Now there's story raids so I can't see any possible reasons to nerf Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

I ask simply because of SE's track record of doing so, many people don't seem to think so but i just have a feeling it will happen eventually. Thoughts?.

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I think A1S bosses will have less hp, only 2 rocket spots, and resin bomb will not leave heavy aoe field on the ground... oh wait

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

What would be the point of nerfing it. Since we already have Alex normal, nerfing the hard content is like the ultimate white flag to the whole "give me everything for nothing" crowd. It would be a sad day for gaming.

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which sadly is probaly what is gonna happen. hw brought us more of the SAME stuff as before and reduced it fruther and focused way to much on useless leveling stuff. before end tier raid weapons had a 5ilvl advantage over all other weapons until relic catched up to them later. currently? may get eso weapons+ upgrade mat from hunts on 3.1 or get relic which very likely will be i210 aswell. another slap to raiders and another step towards more easy mode altough it might be a small one its still a step towards it.

i take bets theyll add echo to savage once 3.2 hits. not before tough. they probaly also nerf some mechanics aswell like they did with scob back then.

currently ff14 is basicly doing the same things wrong that lotro did wrong back then. just look what happend to that game. at some point the devs decided hardcore raids were not worth the development time anymore and required to much work (was only 1 raid aswell just like here) so they just scrapped them and the raiding comm died out. now its causal gamers only on that game. and now servers get merged. suprise? ff is on that same path. i just hope they dont make the same mistake down the road.

most important part is to stop raising level caps with expansions and focus on endgame content more then leveling stuff which most players do once and then never again making it basicly wasted content.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

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Tbh. The gear level isn't the issue and shouldn't be. The content should not be nerfed just so that people don't want to put in the effort to beat it, can. There should be an epic challange level for in games, it goves those who want to strive for execlence somthing to aim for and a sense of accomplishment for completeing it. They can and should have their unique reward for beating it. Other things like the long grind for relics an have their high ilevel for completion as well.

I just really hate the dumbing down of everything (be it ingame or irl), for people who think they deserve to be included i n everything, with mediocre, sub-par performance, and little to no effort on their part. The whole awards for showing up movement is something I find to be disgusting.


Edit: damn, I had written more, but it got lost when editing for character restriction on my phone.

i don't think it needs to be nerfed thats what echo should be for a bigger concern is that easy mode is too easy. Yes people wanting a story mode for the raid but it came at the cost of the middle ground content and its a bummer

It depends on whether A5S will require A4S completion, or just the new A5-A8 normal. Typically the first fight of a new raid is fundamentally easier than the last fight of the previous raid. When a new raid tier is added, the devs definitely want as many people ATTEMPTING the new content as possible.

If A5S launches with a A4S clear requirement, a lot of casual raid guilds will still not have cleared A4S, and then the call for nerfs will be unavoidable, and we will likely see Echo added to the current savage content. They can skip that entirely though, by making A5S not require an A4S clear.

Again, the only reason 'casuals' called for an easing of Coil was so they could enjoy the story. There's no need for that with Alexander. If anyone calls for the easing of Savage Alexander then it's more than likely going to be the raid groups that think they're 'all that' yet still can't get a clear. I, being a 'casual', have no interest in Savage Alexander. Normal is enough for me.

Chances are zero...the fight was tuned for the Hard Core players...the rest of the players got their nerfed version already. The gear dropping in Void Ark is going to be such that the dyable Alex Savage gear is just for them and Void Gear (Probably iLv200 will be for everyone else.) The only thing I see them doing is giving the other players a way to upgrade the Eso gear without having to do SAVAGE some how...kind of like they did with CT Weekly quest last time around. We will have to wait and see but definitely no nerf coming for ALEX SAVAGE...the only nerf will be to out gear the content...but you will still have to deal with the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Did they nerf Coil savage?

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Savage coil wasn't a part of gear progression it dropped nothing more and it was just there for a challenge, savage alexander on the other hand is a part of gear progression so it probably will get nerfed in 3.2 when the next alex raid comes out.

You will likely see some nerfs before 3.2 and here is why.

Gear will not make a3s and a4s much more easier. Those fights are full of instant wipe mechanics and require more coordination than anything else. You could be an ilvl 300 raid group and the mechanics in a3s could still easily wipe your group. Better gear does not make you have higher raid awareness or improve your reaction time.

There is going to be a large population of midcore raid statics, people who achieved full SCoB and FCoB clears pre nerf, that will not be getting a4s clears with all ilvl 209 raiders. How is it going to look on SE's part when the % of statics getting clears in savage are lower than FCoB? They will nerf savage alex so more mid core teams get clears.

You can even tell from the tone of the director's letter that yoshida was and might still be concerned about alex savage difficulty.

But if they give upgrade items to make Esoterics go to 210 without having to do SAVAGE then savage is no longer part of the gear progression...right. They only nerfed Coil because it was gating story...with Alex the normal and savage have the same story so nothing is gated or missed here. They would look really bad if they nerf this content for other players when there is not need to do so. Just for the record I am someone who is probably never going to clear savage so don't think I am saying this because am in the top 1% of raiders that is not the case at all...just my outlook on how they will logically proceed with their content.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

But if they give upgrade items to make Esoterics go to 210 without having to do SAVAGE then savage is no longer part of the gear progression...right. They only nerfed Coil because it was gating story...with Alex the normal and savage have the same story so nothing is gated or missed here. They would look really bad if they nerf this content for other players when there is not need to do so. Just for the record I am someone who is probably never going to clear savage so don't think I am saying this because am in the top 1% of raiders that is not the case at all...just my outlook on how they will logically proceed with their content.

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Do you really think they are going to put upgrade items in void ark when less than 3.5k people world wide have just started to get the twine? When they added upgrade items to WoD, they did it in steps based off of upgrade progression from Coils.


They don't want to give easy access to upgrade items while raiders barely have any yet from raids. At best, you would only see the gobcoat added to void ark for at least the 1st month or two, just like we saw with WoD.


Also, as it pertains to nerfs, midcore raid statics are more the norm than the exception, what are they supposed to do? Bang their heads against a3s until the next raid tier comes out?

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Originally Posted by Atreides

They mostlikely won't nerf it anytime soon but it does make me chuckle a little when I think that Yoshida said raid content wasn't made with healer DPS in mind.
Thats an outright lie unless he talks about everyone being ilvl 208-210... :p

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I actually believe that Alex Savage was designed with 200-205 in mind for 1-2, while 3-4 was closer to 205-208.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Do you really think they are going to put upgrade items in void ark when less than 3.5k people world wide have just started to get the twine? When they added upgrade items to WoD, they did it in steps based off of upgrade progression from Coils.

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Yes, I do expect they will add them to a weekly Void Ark completion quest.

Also, I suspect that the delay in the weekly quest giving out Encrypted Tomestones until 2.55 had more to do with maintaining Relic viability rather than anything to do with FCoB since Carboncoat and Carbontwine were available through hunts at the very start of 2.5.

When Syrcus Tower was released in 2.3, it was quickly determined that running the Tower for an Unidentified Tomestone and then doing hunts for the Sand was a much easier and less of a hassle for a similar reward than working a relic up to i110. This caused a steep drop in the number of players working on relics. To avoid a repeat of that they delayed easy access to Encrypted Tomestones until the Relic was superior.