What if certain bosses had the oppositeof an enragetimer?

What if bosses in raid content had effects that triggered if you burned them down to fast? A reverse of an enrage timer used in conjunction with effect encouraging tank swaps, healing bursts, etc. I'm just trying to float ideas about different ways to challenge raids other then DPS checks.

They tried that around 2.1 with the dungeons, it didn't go over too well. The dungeons were quickly nerfed.

The reason for all the dps checks is because FCoB was beaten in its first week. DPS checks are the easy way to prevent that, and cause much less of an uproar than the alternatives, such as daily/weekly lockout on attempts or tedious grinding for each attempt.

Well, Ifrit EX had that. If you burned him down and ignore the last phase of nails, He'll automatically do instant wipe hell fire

I think most primals have something similar.

Huakke Manor HM has this too with its last boss. Burn the main boss too quickly and she will absorb the last add at full health, which leads to a instant wipe. Not sure if it's the same in unsync'ed, but many people are fooled into thinking they can burn the boss beforehand in hard mode roulette, and pay the price. xD

The majority of these mechanics are simply another dps check actually. Haukke is learning how to dps the adds down fast enough before the boss eats them. Ifrit is actually a dps check where you dps the nails down (because there is an actual timer for those too).

If anything, the closest to this actual mechanic is ultima hm and the Chrysalis trials. Although it is a heal and tank check, most simply use the tank LB for it. I'm not sure if it's actually less boring than the dps one, which at least has dodge mechanics (although it's a nice change-up if you've been grinding dps stuff).

A second mechanic is actually in some of the dungeons and crystal tower 1 raid. Healers have to keep up specific npcs for those fights. For the new raid, it could be fun for tanks to keep enemies away from Slowfix and Mide as they run around the map tinkering with stuff, or healers keeping an npc up for a barrier against a tpk ability in a raid setting (like a certain dungeon at lv.55).

Also, contrary to popular belief, raids actually have tank and heal checks too. The way you know you've failed one though is not when you die to a flashy tpk ability, but when your healers run out of mp 2 minutes after the mechanic. Kind of a wimpy way to die i know, but that's a healer/tank wipe.

As for a controlled dps fight, that is actually very hard to coordinate. As you are essentially telling dps players to just sit there and not do anything or to stay below a certain threshold of dps (which is hard to optimize unless you're using an illegal parser). It actually lets dps recover resources too while the tanks and healers get worn down, so I'm not sure what the point is compared to simply giving the boss more hp for that phase or have the boss use attacks with a ton of movement mechanics that targets dps and forces them away (preferrably keeping them busy dodging and using sprint, so reduced resources after the mechanic, yay).

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

What if bosses in raid content had effects that triggered if you burned them down to fast? A reverse of an enrage timer used in conjunction with effect encouraging tank swaps, healing bursts, etc. I'm just trying to float ideas about different ways to challenge raids other then DPS checks.

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Effects that trigger if you burn them down too fast seems like Hard Modes from Ulduar in WoW.
It's a cool idea, if it also rewards players extra for doing so - not as a "get rekt" penalty.

But reverse Enrage (boss getting easier the more time passes) is a terrible idea.
That'd be the most anticlimatic fight ever...

Another big problem with this idea is overgearing fights. Once you're overgeared, it becomes a lot more difficult to throttle your DPS down. A good example of this that I can think of is the Mog fights, both HM and EX... in HM if your tank/unaware DPS do too much damage to the King in the 2nd phase, he'll start his wipe move early. In EX, if you're doing too much damage, it becomes easier to accidentally off one of the little moogles prematurely.

The old primals have this, wiped on levi and ifrit a few times due to too much dps.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

The old primals have this, wiped on levi and ifrit a few times due to too much dps.

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Pretty much this. You can force their trademark attack without having a chance to mitigate the damage by pushing past a certain % too quickly. I don't know all of the exact Primal %s right now, save for Ramuh, who will wipe the group for pushing somewhere past 60%; he literally could have just summoned his Arbiters.

Lets call it a cuddletimer.

On another note there are quite some softcuddletimers in the game. Like having a damagestop on the gobwalker in A2s to let the spidertank leech or a damagestop on faust to prevent the tank surviving it.

The only thing I can think of that would get a similar effect and would "work" in my mind would be if it was a particular phase of the fight where it entered either a counter attack state, where it's attacks are survivable, but not if you're going nuts ((Think the first bosses IV through VII, ignoring VII's notorious parsing problem. A lot of them you could survive a counter attack, but probably not more than one is a row)). Or an phase where it reflected your damage back at you. You'd still probably want to attack, but maybe cool it a little.

And cue people Making Vit gear specifically for these bosses.

Hmm, Chaz's suggestion reminds me of the BEX and REX mechanics.

I wonder if we'll see variations or improvements on those that lead to some anti-enrage mechanics in the next bosses/trials. SE has to train players how to handle these mechanics after all. Maybe there's also some prototyping to see how players handle the mechanics too.

As already said, there are a few fights were you have to slow down your dps on a specific target (mostly main boss) to get mechanics done, which would wipe you instead.
Like Ifrit, Leviathan, Mogry King, Ramuh... also if you burn Odin in a specific time you can get Gungnir right before Shin-Zantetsuken, but I'm not sure if that can wipe you.

There're also moves like "Heatwave" from the 5-headed dragon in CT3.
Under effect of this debuff you'll get 500 damage for every action for idk.. 5 seconds?
Can be prevented like T10-preys with shields/SS, however it's not only affecting two players but the whole group.


They could also give bosses changing vulnerabilites (physical / non-physical) like in T13, while the players who are affected by the current buff have to deal with adds or some button/tile-mechanic (maybe like @ Atomos in CT1).

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

They tried that around 2.1 with the dungeons, it didn't go over too well. The dungeons were quickly nerfed.

The reason for all the dps checks is because FCoB was beaten in its first week. DPS checks are the easy way to prevent that, and cause much less of an uproar than the alternatives, such as daily/weekly lockout on attempts or tedious grinding for each attempt.

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Not even close. The dungeons in 2.1 were obsolete with the average gear levels people had so people were massively over geared causing people to push the phases too fast and it made things harder than they should have been. If you're DPS sucked the fights were surprisingly easy, just long.

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Originally Posted by Esp

Huakke Manor HM has this too with its last boss. Burn the main boss too quickly and she will absorb the last add at full health, which leads to a instant wipe. Not sure if it's the same in unsync'ed, but many people are fooled into thinking they can burn the boss beforehand in hard mode roulette, and pay the price. xD

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Haukke HM unsynched is pain. So, so much pain. You may survive a full-powered Blood rain, but not two in a row, so you basically need to burst the boss before the second cast.

For some reason, I feel like punishing the players for doing too well wouldn't go over too well.

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Originally Posted by Yesui

For some reason, I feel like punishing the players for doing too well wouldn't go over too well.

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It depends on how you look at it. If it works out that you'd survive because you're still attacking like a maniac but you're not bothering with anything resembling a rotation or pushing your DPS, then yes, it is punishing you for doing well. If it works out that doing the stupid thing poorly gets you killed all the same, and really winning comes down to strategy, it should be better.

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Originally Posted by Esp

Huakke Manor HM has this too with its last boss. Burn the main boss too quickly and she will absorb the last add at full health, which leads to a instant wipe. Not sure if it's the same in unsync'ed, but many people are fooled into thinking they can burn the boss beforehand in hard mode roulette, and pay the price. xD

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Tanks LB, Traited Virus, and Pre-Shielding :P was doing it this way before HW. It is dicey but so satisfying.

i think vanilla coil T7 and T13 had such mechanics. if you did too much dmg in T7 you messed up the rotation and stone timers, so the renauds would awake and you had no place to hide for the room wide aoe stone. in T13 with too much dps would the last add spawn after you reached the next phase of the battle, causing some trouble.

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Originally Posted by Nurvus

But reverse Enrage (boss getting easier the more time passes) is a terrible idea.
That'd be the most anticlimatic fight ever...

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Singularity Reactor. >_>

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Tanks LB, Traited Virus, and Pre-Shielding :P was doing it this way before HW. It is dicey but so satisfying.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Haukke HM unsynched is pain. So, so much pain. You may survive a full-powered Blood rain, but not two in a row, so you basically need to burst the boss before the second cast.

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Didn't think it was possible before unsynched, and was quite sure it was possible afterwards. xD Good to know there are ways, which I will have to try. Cause just like Mog EX, people HATE to have to hold back ^^

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

The old primals have this, wiped on levi and ifrit a few times due to too much dps.

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I don't think having so much dps that you push phases and essentially break the fight is a mechanic.

I think this thread should turn into a disscussion about meanigful and challenging mechanics for fights rather than more and more DPS checks. Let the roles do what they were meant to do, tanks tank, and healers heal. While I find it nice to watch people play at the pinnacle of these roles and god bless you people for being amazing, every fight in savage should not revolve around having tank and healer dps to clear it. SE devs, put your heads together, and make more complex mechanics please.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

I think this thread should turn into a disscussion about meanigful and challenging mechanics for fights rather than more and more DPS checks. Let the roles do what they were meant to do, tanks tank, and healers heal. While I find it nice to watch people play at the pinnacle of these roles and god bless you people for being amazing, every fight in savage should not revolve around having tank and healer dps to clear it. SE devs, put your heads together, and make more complex mechanics please.

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Are you implying that dps classes should be able to perform well enough, undergeared, to clear savage content without tanks and healers trying to maximise dps which they're going to do anyway as long as they have abilities that do damage?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Are you implying that dps classes should be able to perform well enough, undergeared, to clear savage content without tanks and healers trying to maximise dps which they're going to do anyway as long as they have abilities that do damage?

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It could work if the content is tuned where tanks absolutely must have Vit gear on at all times to survive and the healers are forced to constantly heal and dare not use any of their MP for even a single damage spell for fear of running out of mp. So rather than nerfing tanks and healers to the point where they can't dps and soloing becomes even more painful, the content is tuned so that they have to focus on their specific role if the group is to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

It could work if the content is tuned where tanks absolutely must have Vit gear on at all times to survive and the healers are forced to constantly heal and dare not use any of their MP for even a single damage spell for fear of running out of mp. So rather than nerfing tanks and healers to the point where they can't dps and soloing becomes even more painful, the content is tuned so that they have to focus on their specific role if the group is to succeed.

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I don't understand how wearing vit gear instantly stops tanks from trying to dps. And healers, as long as they don't have to spend a gcd healing, they're going to be dpsing.

Assuming we're not talking about bads, anyway.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I don't understand how wearing vit gear instantly stops tanks from trying to dps. And healers, as long as they don't have to spend a gcd healing, they're going to be dpsing.

Assuming we're not talking about bads, anyway.

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The point is, when vit gear/tank stance becomes necessary to survive, tanks cannot afford to use str gear and their dps becomes negligible and isn't factored in to beating enrages anymore. The same can be said for the healers, imagine a fight designed where in the time it takes the healer to cast that dps spell someone dies, forcing them to not use them and to only cast healing spells or they have to be ready to cast a healing spell at a moment's notice and spending even one GCD on a dps spell means someone dies.

The best example I can think of in this situation, is what the raid damage was like in Wrath of the Lich King, a WoW xpac. The boss damage was tuned to be super high, a single hit from a boss reduced a tank to less than half of their hp and would one shot any tank without enough HP or a dps that pulled aggro. Taking unavoidable AoE in to consideration, it meant that healers didn't have time to cast any of their dps spells as they basically had to keep every one topped off at all times and wasting a GCD dpsing usually meant someone was going to die.

Is that bad encounter design? I don't think so. But it forced tanks to focus on surviving, healers had to keep the whole raid topped off while doing mechanics, and the pressure was on the dps to finish the fight as quickly as possible because the damage was high enough that if it dragged on the healers would run dry and everyone died. It made for some very tense encounters.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Stuff and things

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You pretty much summed up everything I was thinking. I feel like its not that difficult to make, but then again, maybe it is. Were just not seeing any of these kinds of mechanics, and I feel like that is what is missing that would make raiding more intresting. I'm all for people playing at the peak of preformance, but there are other ways to get to that peak. DPS checks are healthy to the game, and for the dps, but just think about As3 for a second, there is at least 2 points where there are dps checks, not to mention the actual hard timer enrage. I feel like this is just to much.