what happens if second half of Alex is all physical?

will we see the same cries for buff except this time for DRK?

That depends entirely on how much DPS requirement there is to down the encounters. The only reason DRK would be desperately after a buff is if if the physical tankbusters are -really hard- to mitigate with their kit.

Paladins don't really have a huge problem with the magical stuff in Alex right now, it's the combo of noticeably lower DPS than DRK/WAR along with no meaningful impact on the encounters from their benefits. If Alex part 2 was entirely physical you'd probably see an equal amount of WAR/DRK and WAR/PLD groups clearing it depending on dps requirement.

i thought paladin MT dps arent that far behind DRK MT?
i know OT DRK pull much more, but we have WAR for default OT anyway

I'm pretty sure PLD mt dps is pretty well below both DRK and WAR. The WAR as default ot and ensured a spot in every optimal raid is a pretty big balance concern on it's own however. Definitely one I'd like addressed since the preferred classes for my static tanks are PLD/DRK.

1) Paladin's magic mitigation certainly doesn't help, but it's not the reason I don't use paladin in 3/4. Paladin's garbage utility doesn't make up for its downfalls.
2) Dark Knight probably needs a couple changes to help them match the frequency at which paladin and warrior can mitigate physical hits. Basically, I think if Reprisal was a guaranteed parry (like Sheltron) that counterattacked with the current Reprisal, they would be fine for any physical buster that might come in the future. Maybe throw in some extra parry power while using it.
3) Jobs being bad for 6 months at a time is stupid and so is niche tanking.

Let's say A2S and A4S switched spaces. A2S because A4S and thus the hardest fight, and vice versa.

A2S was tuned to the difficulty of A4S and vice versa, thus causing the superior physical requirement of PLD to be necessary to clear it. People would still probably be complaining about something.

Currently A4S is a very poor choice for PLD, and its causing a lot of tanks to have to switch to DRK. AST, despite the buffs, probably is still a poor choice for that fight as well, ESPECIALLY if you do he JP strat and let straf dolls explode.

With more tanks/healer jobs than available roles, it will be extremely difficult to balance encounters around each job. More then likely there will always be a suboptimal choice in the tank/healer roles. Dps is much easier to balance because that's just a numbers game.

The only thing serious progression tanks can prepare for is to have all tanks leveled and be able to play them at a high level. It's unfortunate that eso gear is job gated and that does suck, but hopefully later tomb gear will not have this issue. This is the reality of it and players should learn to use the armory system to deal with it instead of complaining on the forums.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i thought paladin MT dps arent that far behind DRK MT?
i know OT DRK pull much more, but we have WAR for default OT anyway

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Flip that around. Shield Oath loses really bad to Grit/Defiance. It's somewhat close in Sword Oath to no Grit and Deliverance, at least with slashing debuff applied.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

It's somewhat close in Sword Oath to no Grit and Deliverance, at least with slashing debuff applied.

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doesnt all 3 dps stances benefit from slashing debuff? how did sword oath suddenly get close to no Grit and Deliverance when those would be boosted by slashign debuff too

Mainly comparing WAR as OT to PLD/DRK as OT. WAR wins as OT, but if you would compare PLD DRK and WAR numbers without giving them equal slashing debuff then it would look like WAR beats them so bad they're nonviable. You should always have slashing debuff in a raid scenario (and if you don't that means you're running DRK + PLD + no NIN, and heaven help you then) so it's actually best to compare any stance with slashing debuff IMO.

Paladins will still be worthless because we won't be able to pass those dps checks either.

Case in point : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K6gZNoHk2I
The team Blue Gartr set up in that video FAILED (the enrage timer finished and began wiping out their party.) The only reason they beat it was because Square's game engine can't handle killing everyone all at once. They failed because of that Paladin, despite the encounter being absolutely flawless and for lack of a better word....perfect.


Edit: I just felt like logging in to clarify that I am in no way, shape, or form degrading the player of the Paladin. I speak only of the class itself and its current limitations. What that player did was beyond exceptional and extremely exemplary. I am indeed jealous of his skill.

Even if the next tier is all physical, I can't see that sidelining DRK the way PLD is sidelined now, as PLD doesn't really have a physical equivalent of Dark Mind. DRK and PLD have pretty similar cooldown kits outside of that one ability. PLD does have Shelltron but I don't think that would be enough to really make DRK unwanted because they also bring the INT down debuff and solid DPS.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

what happens if sceond half of Alex is all physical?

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this /10char

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-28669...if-mi-O2Jc.gif

you may see double warriors but that is what if , meaning 100% hypothetical and likely not to happen. What happens in follow up raids are changes made by devs to fix problems in the first... there will be a mix.... likely. they have to put dps checks in cause Yoshi's EGO hates when players win a raid within the first month

If A5S-A8S are primarily physical, with the same kind of DPS checks we have on A3S and A4S, I think we'll still see DRK/WAR setups unless DRK is just too squishy. In which case, unless there's also a LB requirement of some sort, or mechanics that cater to PLDs abilities to the point of nearly requiring them, it's likely we'll see WAR/WAR setups.

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Habien

I'm pretty sure PLD mt dps is pretty well below both DRK and WAR. The WAR as default ot and ensured a spot in every optimal raid is a pretty big balance concern on it's own however. Definitely one I'd like addressed since the preferred classes for my static tanks are PLD/DRK.

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I agree. If the other two tanks could at least give slashing debuff (or some other damage debuff) it'd even things out a bit. I get that they want each class to be unique, but I don't think it should come at a cost of exclusion. It's really dumb that in the current meta Warrior is guaranteed a slot while PLD/DRK get to duke it out for the remaining one. Any combination should be viable.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

In which case, unless there's also a LB requirement of some sort, or mechanics that cater to PLDs abilities to the point of nearly requiring them, it's likely we'll see WAR/WAR setups.

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There was an LB requirement in T13 and people still brought 2 MNKs, tbf. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LB speed isn't that much nerfed with only 2 people having the same job in a party. WAR + WAR will most likely be a thing if they don't change anything to PLD and DRK.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

There was an LB requirement in T13 and people still brought 2 MNKs, tbf. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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To be fair again to the other side of that argument, the LB requirement in T13 was extremely lax.

If group was crap/undergeared to heck: LB1 to push Gigaflare or LB2 ASAP, then tank LB3 later (which came due to longer pre-51% action), then eventual melee LB3
If group was "properly" geared: Tank LB3, melee LB3
If group had high DPS, or with echo: Tank LB2, sometimes melee LB2

Nothing tight there really. This tier, there's not much time sensitive LBing. Best you could argue is being able to SMN LB3 Hand 1 then SMN LB2 Hand 2 in A3S if you milk that crap, everything else is lenient as pie including A4S.

THAT said, I really despise the WAR/WAR setup unless the damage gain is simply that extreme or if you are forced to tank different things. A1 and A2 Savage fit the bill in that department, to be fair! WAR/WAR is the best for those, hands down. A3S, I'm just not a fan of losing RoH/Reprisal on the boss like that, pretty big hit to me, not even for pure survivability but for letting healers DPS a lot in final phase. A4S, yeah nothing beats DRK + WAR due to how stupid DRK is in it.

What I imagine, is not purely physical. It would be best if tank swap mechanics where needed. One physical, one magical. In that event, PLD would be viable.
You could also have situations where you have split bosses, similar to A1S, but with one buss being physical tank buster, the other being magic based. There are several situation imaginable, it just take a little creativity, which our game designers have.

Designing two tanks to literally be strong versus one type of dmg, but to also be weaker versus another is just a terrible game design for an mmo, when players take months to gear thier character. Tanks are meant to mitigation dmg whatever the source/dmg type in mmos. Why can't we have tanks that can mitigate ALL dmg differently? As long as SE has this idea of Drk being a magical mitigation tank, and Pld being a physical mitigation tank these two classes will remain crippled throughout the lifetime of FFXIV, and will only come into play when the current meta dictates it. This shouldn't be some mess up game of pokemon where we can't easily replace our lineup after spending months of TOMES on only one class.

Physical meta doesn't fix PLD. It will just highlight how unreliable Sheltron is in practice. Not to mention WAR will gain Raw Intuition and DRK will gain Dark Dance, Reprisal, and Low Blow procs. PLD gets their shield block, Bulwark, and Sheltron. None of which are significant enough to make it stand out.

I actually think if its more Physical DRK will be underpowered.

Dark Dance is unreliable, Reprisal is unreliable and RNG based and not up often.

If Dark Dance is unreliable, so is shield blocking. DRK is in a fine place.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

If Dark Dance is unreliable, so is shield blocking. DRK is in a fine place.

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Not really, Shield Block happens far more often then Parry and they have other ways to mitigate physical damage.

Shield Block happens even more then parry does with dark dance.

Paladins can Parry AND Block.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I actually think if its more Physical DRK will be underpowered.

Dark Dance is unreliable, Reprisal is unreliable and RNG based and not up often.

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Even if unreliable and pretty shitty, Dark Dance still mitigates physical damage at a pretty consistant rate over an entire fight, granted it's totally unsafe to rely on it for an eventual physical tank buster, but the same goes for Bulwark. It's highly recommended to use these CDs in conjunction with other CDs. Reprisal is up more often than you think. I personally get it almost on CD everytime and I have almost 0 parry on my gear. It's still unreliable but parry still happens often enough to get a good uptime with it when MTing. And you can use Dark Dance every 60sec to force-proc it (except if you have a really shit luck).
The difference between PLD and DRK in physical mitigation is almost only RNG things (only Sheltron is not and it's still clunky because it can eat an auto attack right before the tank buster).

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Even if unreliable and pretty shitty, Dark Dance still mitigates physical damage at a pretty consistant rate over an entire fight, granted it's totally unsafe to rely on it for an eventual physical tank buster, but the same goes for Bulwark. It's highly recommended to use these CDs in conjunction with other CDs. Reprisal is up more often than you think. I personally get it almost on CD everytime and I have almost 0 parry on my gear. It's still unreliable but parry still happens often enough to get a good uptime with it when MTing. And you can use Dark Dance every 60sec to force-proc it (except if you have a really shit luck).
The difference between PLD and DRK in physical mitigation is almost only RNG things (only Sheltron is not and it's still clunky because it can eat an auto attack right before the tank buster).

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20s out of 60 seconds is constant?

Maybe if it was 30 seconds I would agree, but that is 1/3rd of the rate.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

20s out of 60 seconds is constant?

Maybe if it was 30 seconds I would agree, but that is 1/3rd of the rate.

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I wrote consistant, not constant.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Shield Block happens even more then parry does with dark dance.

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No. No it doesn't. Not even remotely, every parse in existence disproves this. Please stop lying to try to make a point, you seem to do this in most threads.

The 1st Gordian pld weapon obtained by a pld in a4 better have a big middle finger emote to come along with it lol it is possible

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Originally Posted by Nomad-phx

The 1st Gordian pld weapon obtained by a pld in a4 better have a big middle finger emote to come along with it lol it is possible

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Let's be real here. The first Gordian PLD weapon is gonna go to the dude that plays DRK now.

His jimmies are gonna be so rustled. :c

Speaking of Gordian PLD weapon ... is there any recorded/known A4S clear with PLD yet? I know for a fact it'd be quite possible (there would actually be some advantages to forcing it into an OT role as much as possible!), but every group I've seen who can beat it are using DRK + WAR.

No none yet. Due to the mechanics of the fight requiring swapping there is no dedicated off tank so any perceived advantage you think there is doesn't exist. This is speaking from direct experience.

I have killed the fight, I've seen it from most angles I'd like to reckon. Have seen the wipes to dumb stuff, autos, Strafs, tank busters, what we'd want where in terms of CDs, etc.

I'm not saying PLD would be better than DRK, it's overall much worse since Dark Mind is ridiculous in that fight, but there'd at least be a slight niche if it handled the majority of Straf Dolls, which would be 4/5 of them.

I'm just saying, at this point, DRK + WAR isn't the only way to clear the fight. Was just curious if anyone had done it yet.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Let's be real here. The first Gordian PLD weapon is gonna go to the dude that plays DRK now.

His jimmies are gonna be so rustled. :c

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That's why I say obtained by a pld lol

Assuming one considers Dark Dance and Bulwark to be roughly equivalent CDs (consider their relative uptime/duration/recast/potency), and the fact that Dark Dance can, beyond the use of the buff itself, be used to control Reprisal usage, then really the only tool PLD edges DRK out on physically is Sheltron, which barely counts. DRK's physical mitigation is not as pathetic as people make it out to be, its just that Dark Mind is so OP in comparison. But on the flip side, when you consider Sentinels stronger potency, HG, and PLD's ability to SS/Clemency itself, I wouldn't worry if I was a PLD in the face of a magic tank buster. Case in point:

A1S CD rotation:
PLD 1-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation), 2-HG (100% mitigation), 3-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation).
DRK 1-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation), 2-Shadow Wall+Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (80% mitigation), 3-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation).

So, you see, PLD really isn't hurting that bad mitigation-wise. Its still edging out DRK in terms of magic mitgation in some cases.

I think the issue becomes more apparent in A3S and A4S, where the magic based tank busters come more frequently.

In A1S you have about 2 minutes between tank busters, and you really only need to survive 3.
The problem for PLD is if the tank buster comes more often than every 90s, or if you need to survive more than 3.
Given 90s tank busters... 1: Rampart+Sentinel+Conv. 2: HG. 3: Rampart+Sentinel+Conv. 4: Rampart 5: Rampart+Sentinel+Conv. 6: Rampart, etc...

Simply put PLD runs out of CD's at around the 4th 90s tank buster.
Its worse if the tank busters come in under 90s, as you wont even have Rampart.
A WAR has IB every 30s, a DRK has Dark Mind every 60s. They both have some equivalent-ish of Sentinel and Conv.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

A1S CD rotation:
PLD 1-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation), 2-HG (100% mitigation), 3-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation).
DRK 1-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation), 2-Shadow Wall+Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (80% mitigation), 3-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation).

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Mitigations don't add up like that. Rampart + Sentinel is 48% mitigation if you're in shield oath compared to what you would take without CD because you're reducing damage which has already been reduced in the first place.
And there is a better rotation for DRK, since there is 2min between each tank buster, you can do 1 : Shadow Wall + Shadowskin + DA Dark Mind + Convalescence, 2 : Shadowskin + DA Dark Mind + Convalescence, 3 : Shadow Wall + Shadowskin + DA Dark Mind + Convalescence and have Living Dead in case shit happens (DPS dying or shit like that) and you have the 4th tank buster to deal with. You can also use Dark Dance to force-proc a Reprisal during preys to have it for Royal Fount + tank buster and considering that you have Delirium where PLD's STR debuff is useless, all of that is way superior to anything a PLD can do.

And the real problem is when you need magical mitigation more often, like Kenji1134 just mentionned. And Reprisal on top of Storm's Path and Delirium adds more raid-wide mitigation than anything a PLD could do too.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Assuming one considers Dark Dance and Bulwark to be roughly equivalent CDs (consider their relative uptime/duration/recast/potency), and the fact that Dark Dance can, beyond the use of the buff itself, be used to control Reprisal usage, then really the only tool PLD edges DRK out on physically is Sheltron, which barely counts. DRK's physical mitigation is not as pathetic as people make it out to be, its just that Dark Mind is so OP in comparison. But on the flip side, when you consider Sentinels stronger potency, HG, and PLD's ability to SS/Clemency itself, I wouldn't worry if I was a PLD in the face of a magic tank buster. Case in point:

A1S CD rotation:
PLD 1-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation), 2-HG (100% mitigation), 3-Rampart+Sentinel (60% mitigation).
DRK 1-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation), 2-Shadow Wall+Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (80% mitigation), 3-Shadowskin+DA Dark Mind (50% mitigation).

So, you see, PLD really isn't hurting that bad mitigation-wise. Its still edging out DRK in terms of magic mitgation in some cases.

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Except when you actually try to push your performance, you don't use your CDs like this.

Even if you're being conservative with your CDs, you SS+SW+DA DM first, SS+DA DM the second, and SS+SW+DA DM the last. And, you're also going to have Delirium up for 10% reduced damage and maybe Reprisal. Your mitigation is much better than a PLD. And, you retain Living Dead as an emergency button while PLD actually has to use it in their rotation.

But let's be real. Unless your healers are bad or you're all undergeared, you don't have to do that. As a DRK, you should DA DM + SW the first, Living Dead the second, DA DM + SW the last with Delirium and maybe Reprisal up for the first and last. Still more than enough to survive the hits. It lets you use your SS purely to reduce the general incoming damage. Between SS and Conva, you can negate the mitigation loss from dropping Grit and tank all of the fight while pure DPSing and further increase the gap between DRK and PLD DPS.

On the otherhand, the PLD is stuck on a very inflexible CD rotation and only has 1 free Rampart after the split to help reduce general damage while DPSing. The result is a squishier tank that has less DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I have killed the fight, please don't pull the experience card on me :(

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Thank you for this totally necessary edit. Grats.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Thank you for this totally necessary edit. Grats.

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I apologize, that was a little crass of me. Sorry.

However! My point still stands, before and after clearing, I could see PLD being fine in that fight. Better than DRK, heck no. As good in most areas, with a few perks? Yes.