MCH and Self-Healing

Currently, DRG, NIN, and BRD can cross class MNK's Second Wind. BLMs can cross class Physick from SCH/SMN, and even all 3 tank classes have some form of self-healing. I've noted it many times, but Machinists are the only job that currently has no form of self heals.

This is not a complaint thread, and not having it does not completely ruin the job for me. I still main it and enjoy it. But I would like to know if SE is aware of this, and more importantly, do they plan to address/change it? The easy answer would be to make exception for MCH and allow Second Wind to be cross-classed, but that could easily open the "why doesn't MY job also get a third cross class option?" can of worms. That aside, I would very much love an official response on the subject.

The job performs fine as it is, but having access to a on-the-spot self heal (with a decent cooldown, of course) would ALWAYS be welcome for that moment's misstep, that "I was out of that!"-But lag says otherwise aoe, when Healer-chan is overtasked or perhaps went picking flowers/their nose, or is licking the window for buffs, or my personal favorite, the RNG Mechanical Jackpot (Getting rayed by the boss in A4 while also getting targeted by the sniper bits or soaking orbs is kind of a fun "living on the edge" moment. Don't you think?)

So, Machinists; No Self Heals. Oversight? Intentional? Plans to change that?

Wait -- Lace Valeria, is that you?!

And I do agree. Especially considering we're completely proc-based and rely on a turret stance. It seems to be the norm to say that MCHs have low DPS, but I wonder how much of that is actually attributed to having to stop a cast and run for our lives half the time. I spent the last 10% of my last Neverreap final boss fight doing exactly that. I think I pulled off two shots on him.

It is strange that they failed to give MCH any form of survivability. It's something like this:

Survivable AF tier:

DRG gets Second Wind, Keen Flurry, mega HP, high DEF and normal MDEF, and even takes less during B4B than others. Can CC Foresight if needed/desired. Arguably multiple mobility options that may save you from being in an AoE (rare but has happened I guess).
BLM gets Manaward, Manawall, and Aetherial Manipulation. Arguably the tankiest DPS, it's DRG or BLM. High MDEF, low DEF, which is better for raids than medium or high DEF and medium MDEF.

Probably not gonna die unless healers are behind or you dun goofed, tier:

MNK gets enhanced Second Wind, Fist of Earth if needed, and can CC Keen Flurry (we had some of our physical DPS CC it for T12 and T13 because why not) and Foresight if needed/desired. Regular DEF and MDEF. Shoulder Tackle, see above.
NIN gets Shade Shift, Second Wind, and Shukuchi. Can CC Keen Flurry if needed/desired. The weakest against magic of the 3 melee, to be sure, but technically the second strongest against stuff like Prey or T13 Earthshakers.
BRD gets Second Wind, and can CC Keen Flurry if needed/desired. Regular DEF and MDEF.

Dang, hope heals are topping you off for mechanics when undergeared, tier:

SMN gets Physick (I guess? You'd never use it while a boss is attackable unless it's do or die) but at least it gets high MDEF.

First to die to Pepsiman Savage tier:

MCH gets ... well, nothing besides Keen Flurry if they want. So far in A1-4S that means A1S Prey and if you so choose to let DPS tank certain enemies in A2S. In fact they have normal MDEF so even though SMN and MCH both get roughly no tools for survival, they get hit harder by raid mechanics.

I'm actually not sure why some DPS get more or less survivability than others; BLM is a given, that's part of their tool set for attacking. DRG being the last to die otherwise over anyone else is strange, MCH getting absolutely nothing is strange, and half the cast being able to really super mitigate physical damage mechanics, rare as they are, while others have nothing, is a bit strange.

Renata! I didn't know you'd switched to Adamantoise!

As far as defensive buffs go, all MCH has is Keen Flurry. And believe me, that's NOT enough. A1S when you have Prey is proof of that, and I even have a few points in VIT for the extra HP and defense.

So it would seem that we're not only at a loss for self-heals, we generally have no damage mitigation of our own. Tsk tsk, SE. . .

I suppose you could argue Dismantle / Rend Mind....but even then it's a meager 5% reduction. Hmm, I wouldn't say it's a necessity to have though. Most dps have something but even then the cooldowns for such skills are pretty long except Fists of Earth - getting selected for unavoidable damage mechanics multiple times doesn't allow for things like Keen Flurry / Second Wind to be readily available. I always thought of it more as a luxury, with MNK and BLM getting a sweeter deal for having the most punishing buffs to lose.

I know I'll get hit for this, but isn't it okay that a class has an attribute that's different than every other one? Whether it be good or bad? I see a lot of complaining about *buzzword* homogenization of the classes, then see threads like this. I understand the importance of a self-heal, but does that necessarily mean that there might not be a different way around it instead of just... giving a self-heal?

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

SMN gets Physick (I guess? You'd never use it while a boss is attackable unless it's do or die) but at least it gets high MDEF.

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It's not even good for do or die at 60. It's so low that it won't save you if you're hit hard enough to need it (you're basically in the same boat before and after) and it's not worth the GCD if you're not in immediate danger. Physick needs something new when on SMN, otherwise it's a wasted hit bar slot.

Greedalox, you make a valid point. I did say that the job performs fine even without it, but it is the sole exception here. That really stands out, especially when you begin to weigh pros and cons of jobs entirely. And while the simplest answer (that is just opening up Second Wind to MCH) might not be the best one, it's a matter that really can't go unspoken.

We MCH lack a self-heal AND proper damage mitigation, and no amount of "support utility" can make up for simply just lacking survival tools for solo or high end, full party content. As it stands, that would technically make us MORE work for healers, which actually means LESS support utility.

Perhaps it's not an easy fix or a deeper balance issue? But all the same, it can't go unspoken when it's the ONE exception.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I know I'll get hit for this, but isn't it okay that a class has an attribute that's different than every other one? ... I understand the importance of a self-heal, but does that necessarily mean that there might not be a different way around it instead of just... giving a self-heal?

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I wouldn't downvote a self-heal for MCH, but to be fair, we do have plenty of ways to knock enemies away from us and keep them in place if we need some space. Second Wind or anything similar to it would be great to help correct mistakes but, honestly, there won't be many times that you'll need it outside of a dungeon. There will normally be a healer around anyway.

Perhaps increasing MCH's overall vitality by a small percentage (say, 3%) would correct the imbalance?

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Renata! I didn't know you'd switched to Adamantoise!

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I did! I'll have to use the alt I have on Goblin to get into contact with you now. :)

Isnt is same for summoners? Physick heal probably 4% of your max hp and more you get gear less it heal compared your max hp. It is worth waste your 2.5sec global for it? Second wind is easy use because it is no dps loss for you because it is offglobal. Energy drain heal 500 - 1k depend on crit, but using it is pretty big dps loss because fester can do 100% more damage.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

It is strange that they failed to give MCH any form of survivability. It's something like this:

Survivable AF tier:

DRG gets...

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You forgot the most important of all: Life Surge and Bloodbath. The hit on Lifesurge is about 1300 HP and combined with Bloodbath its a total of about 2300, so its essentially another Second Wind. On top of that, bloodbath keeps rolling for another 12s or so, and if you got a lot of off-globals ready, you can really pump out of HP.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

You forgot the most important of all: Life Surge and Bloodbath. The hit on Lifesurge is about 1300 HP and combined with Bloodbath its a total of about 2300, so its essentially another Second Wind. On top of that, bloodbath keeps rolling for another 12s or so, and if you got a lot of off-globals ready, you can really pump out of HP.

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Indeed. With Foresight, Keen Flurry and Bloodbath up, a DRG can emergency tank extremely well for the 15 seconds they're active, popping Second Wind, a Life Surged Full Thrust and a potion as needed. I've pulled off a few saves like this, passing aggro back to the tank by Elusive Jumping after he provokes after being raised. Glorious every time. :D

Back on topic though, it would be nice if machinists could selfheal somehow. I'm not willing to sacrifice any crossclass slots for it though... :p

I would like to see abilities combined and given utility instead. Make dismantle and rend mind one ability for 5% damage and head graze and suppression fire one ability that when ur within 5yalms u stun if further u silence. For self heal give us like a stim pack that has a similar CD to second wind and heals u for a set amount and then more over time. For defensive make it like ffxi nin shadows that absorbs like 3 hits on a 90s CD or something. Just some thoughts to help in the "oh crap" department.

On the SMN deal, Virus can be used defensively.

A self heal for MCH would be good. I found some of the job quests I've done a little tricky without one. I'd want something more interesting than just a burst heal though. Maybe a HoT or shield and heal?

Oh... right, NIN also has a self heal!
Its a 90 seconds 70 potency cooldown known as Mug!!

If a self-heal were to happen for MCH, I just hope they don't run into a similar idea :/

Just let MCH cross class Physick so they can see how worthless it is at 60 for anyone that isn't a healer. No dps has a substantial self-heal, just mini boosters.

Why would you even bother mentioning physick? It heals for 400-500. its not even 50% of a random open world monster's auto attack

I mention it for the sake of the point: EVERY other DPS has access to some type of self-heal. Regardless of how potent or useful it is, they ALL have it except MCH. And where their self-heals are lacking, they at least still have damage mitigation skills to back themselves up. MCHs don't have that either. And when you consider all the content at varying levels where you'll run into unavoidable party/raid-wide damage, lacking such useful tools does put us at a bit of a loss. We do our job of dealing damage just fine, but recovering from and/or mitigating it is an area where we aren't lacking, we're completely incapable. More than anything, I'd like to know if this was intentional or a terrible oversight?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I mention it for the sake of the point: EVERY other DPS has access to some type of self-heal. Regardless of how potent or useful it is, they ALL have it except MCH. And where their self-heals are lacking, they at least still have damage mitigation skills to back themselves up. MCHs don't have that either. And when you consider all the content at varying levels where you'll run into unavoidable party/raid-wide damage, lacking such useful tools does put us at a bit of a loss. We do our job of dealing damage just fine, but recovering from and/or mitigating it is an area where we aren't lacking, we're completely incapable. More than anything, I'd like to know if this was intentional or a terrible oversight?

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You already have dismantle, rend mind, and keen flurry. Those are several times more useful than a 400 HP heal that has a full GCD cast time.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You already have dismantle, rend mind, and keen flurry. Those are several times more useful than a 400 HP heal that has a full GCD cast time.

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5% damage reduction isn't as useful as you think. If you're getting hit for 1k, 5% of that would be 50 damage. Wow so powerful~ and Keen Flurry is based on RNG when the parries will work and that only works with physical attacks, if the mob only uses magic it's worthless.

And after typing this I realize you were talking about Physick and not Second Wind.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

5% damage reduction isn't as useful as you think. If you're getting hit for 1k, 5% of that would be 50 damage. Wow so powerful~ and Keen Flurry is based on RNG when the parries will work and that only works with physical attacks, if the mob only uses magic it's worthless.

And after typing this I realize you were talking about Physick and not Second Wind.

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That was my point, she was asking for some mitigation/healing regardless of how potent or useful it was. It's already there.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

That was my point, she was asking for some mitigation/healing regardless of how potent or useful it was. It's already there.

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Well ... SMN/MCH/BLM get debuffing capabilities, but it applies to the group as a whole. A non-MCH DoW in a party with a MCH will get that 5% mitigation, and then they'll get their Second Wind, so it's not like MCH is more survivable because of it. Most raid mechanics don't target one person, after all.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Well ... SMN/MCH/BLM get debuffing capabilities, but it applies to the group as a whole. A non-MCH DoW in a party with a MCH will get that 5% mitigation, and then they'll get their Second Wind, so it's not like MCH is more survivable because of it. Most raid mechanics don't target one person, after all.

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And as I stated before, no dps has a substantial heal. Second Wind gives my WAR about 1500 HP, I'm guessing dps still get under 2k non-crit. Manaward is incredibly powerful, but it's still only 30% of a low HP pool. Healing/shielding 2-3k HP every two minutes is a nice little mini-buff that can let you push just a little more or buy your healer another GCD to keep you alive, but it's not something to build a strategy around.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

And as I stated before, no dps has a substantial heal. Second Wind gives my WAR about 1500 HP, I'm guessing dps still get under 2k non-crit. Manaward is incredibly powerful, but it's still only 30% of a low HP pool. Healing/shielding 2-3k HP every two minutes is a nice little mini-buff that can let you push just a little more or buy your healer another GCD to keep you alive, but it's not something to build a strategy around.

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You say that, and on paper it's true, but it can mean the world to savage raids. A3S and A4S currently have back-to-back mechanics where a Second Wind may be a wipe, or no one dies and you live merrily on. These same deadly mechanics usually don't come around, or at least specifically target the same person, for quite a while, so it can actually be a quite nice advantage to have something like Second Wind. It's not really what % gets healed, it's about whether it lets you live or not, and quite often it can do the job.

Our MCH was the first to die of anyone to stomps > Sluice > Protean Wave if anyone died, while we were less geared during progression. Could blame our healers or whatnot, but the fact is he was the first and often only one to die through no fault of his own.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

You say that, and on paper it's true, but it can mean the world to savage raids.

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Like I said, it's a small boost. Sometimes that tiny amount can get you over the hump to clear content, the same is true of any useful ability. Then after 2-3 weeks of gear upgrades, instead of being the difference between a loss and a win it's the difference between a hard win and a not quite as hard win.