Do DRKs Still Use Delirium On Bosses When There's a Monk in the Party?

Monks also got the 10% Int reducing skill in the form of Dragon Kick and it's kept 100% up most the time because it's part of their DPS rotation. Delirium combos off Syphon Strike but Soul Eater also combos off of Syphon Strike. So when a Dark Knight has a Monk in their party via random Duty Finder for example, are they still "forced" to use Delirium when comboing of Syphon Strike because of the 20 extra Potency it has over Soul Eater? Or is it simply because of "muscle memory" ?

Don't play DRK, but if Delirium combo is higher potency then DRK is still going to use that even with the MNK applying DK.

A sort of similar comparison is if a NIN is using Dancing Edge, a WAR is still going to use Storm's Eye because it's the highest potency combo off Maim (which you have to keep up).

Delirium is not used for the int down when a monk is in the party. Dragon Kick overwrites it and yes it's part of monk rotation for the blunt down that Dragon Kick also provides.

Yes DRKs should be using Delirium any time Dark Arts is not used in the Syphon Strike combo for the 20 extra potency it offers. Very obviously while OT, there is no question since you do not get the healing benefit from Soul Eater. And in Grit, the 50% healing on 240 potency simply is not worth trading the 20 extra potency from Delirium.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Delirium is not used for the int down when a monk is in the party. Dragon Kick overwrites it and yes it's part of monk rotation for the blunt down that Dragon Kick also provides.

Yes DRKs should be using Delirium any time Dark Arts is not used in the Syphon Strike combo for the 20 extra potency it offers. Very obviously while OT, there is no question since you do not get the healing benefit from Soul Eater. And in Grit, the 50% healing on 240 potency simply is not worth trading the 20 extra potency from Delirium.

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Delirium is love. Delirium is life. plz give delirium a different debuff though so we don't clash with monks :<

@op: usually you can darkside-se until your under mana, then 1 delirium-1dase until blood weapon is back.

Think of it in this ratio, 2 syphons = 1 Dark arts.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

And in Grit, the 50% healing on 240 potency simply is not worth trading the 20 extra potency from Delirium.

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The drain is 100%, not 50% regardless of Dark Arts. There is a trait at level 40-something.

Well, Delirium doesn't give blunt resist down (unless I'm mistaken) so if you overwrite the Monk's Dragon Kick, their attacks will be weaker until it it gets re-applied.
#FoodForThought.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Well, Delirium doesn't give blunt resist down (unless I'm mistaken) so if you overwrite the Monk's Dragon Kick, their attacks will be weaker until it it gets re-applied.
#FoodForThought.

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You can't overwrite Dragon Kick with Delirium.

So basically Delirium and Soul Eater are pretty much in the same boat as Storm's Eye and Storm's Path for Warriors? One of the key differences is when there's Ninja in the group with a Warrior, the Ninja is no longer responsible for keeping Dancing Edge up (unless there's a boss that can somehow get healed) freeing the Ninja do more 320 Potency Aeolian Edges after Gust Slash which is theoretically a DPS increase for the Ninja's rotation where as Monks have no choice in the matter when there's a Dark Knight in group and they need to keep Dragon Kick 100% up for its Blunt Resistance Down debuff.

You use Delirium if...
* You are under the mana required for a Dark Arts Soul Eater after Siphon Strike
* Carve and Spit is off cooldown since it's better to Dark Arts Carve and Spit over Soul Eater
* You are in an AoE situation and Dark Arts is better used on Dark Passenger/ mana is better used on Abyssal Drains
* No monk in the party means you have to use Delirium to keep the debuff up as well.

So hypothetically if the potency of Delirium and Soul Eater where switched, would Dark Knights start using Soul Eater more often when there's a Monk in the party and only keep Delirium up when there is no Monk?

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Originally Posted by Transfinite

So hypothetically if the potency of Delirium and Soul Eater where switched, would Dark Knights start using Soul Eater more often when there's a Monk in the party and only keep Delirium up when there is no Monk?

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That's like saying if the hilt of a sword was sharp and the blade was a pole you'd stab people with the hilt more? Yes but that's kind of the reason it's built the way it is.

If the hilt of a sword became sharp and the blade became a pole, it's no longer a sword and has now become a spear/polearm/javelin/harpoon/etc. The point I was trying to make is that more than often when there's a Monk in the group, Dark Knights will still use Delirium when comboing off of Syphon Strike when Dark Arts isn't up simply because it is 20 Potency higher than Soul Eater. Warriors and Ninja's both have a Slashing Resistance Down debuff that both overwrites each other but they still both synergize well together because a Warrior keeping Storm's Eye up (which is also the highest Potency combo off Maim) will allow the Ninja to focus on their Aeolian Edge combos instead which is a 320 potency attack which is a DPS increase compared to Dancing Edge which only has 260 potency. Monks do not have this option when paired with Dark Knights because they need to keep Dragoon Kick up on the boss for the Blunt Resistance Down Debuff.

A Dark Knight will use Delirium regardless if there's a Monk in the party or not means that parties looking to optimize their raid party role compositions have no reason to take a Monk as one of their melee DPS job with them anymore now that an Int reducing skill has been covered. Meanwhile, Warriors and Ninjas that both share a Slashing Debuff skill do not come into conflict with one another and in fact benefit for having both in the party.

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Originally Posted by Transfinite

A Dark Knight will use Delirium regardless if there's a Monk in the party or not means that parties looking to optimize their raid party role compositions have no reason to take a Monk as one of their melee DPS job with them anymore now that an Int reducing skill has been covered. Meanwhile, Warriors and Ninjas that both share a Slashing Debuff skill do not come into conflict with one another and in fact benefit for having both in the party.

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This is something that a lot of people already know about and that I myself have tried to incite discussion about to try and find some kind of resolution to the "issue", but going off the limited information gleaned from that nobody really has much of an idea as to what could be done. At least a few Monks were getting immensely snippy over Delirium "removing" their spot in raids because Monks are inherently selfish DPS with no real raid utility beyond Dragon Kick's INT down (because let's face it, mantra is mostly pants and can be cross-classed by Ninjas, Warriors, Dragoons and Bards anyway). The recent buffs the job has gotten seem to have sort of redressed the balance somewhat, but as someone who mains tanks exclusively I honestly haven't the foggiest idea what it actually does.

The problem with swapping the potency values of Delirium and Souleater is that doing such actually makes Dark Knights immensely powerful tanks because you add augment-able self-sustain/reactive "mitigation" into their DPS rotation, and I will bet you money that if that came to pass you'd see people having much bigger grievances with Paladin than just their (somewhat arguably) meager ability to hit things with a sharp metal stick.

The monk buffs gives the groups the option of: get MNK for higher individual DPS, or get NIN/DRG for less individual DPS but the ability to buff the raid DPS. In turn "fixing" the issue with MNK's only raid utility being overwritten by a tank and, in effect, losing their raid value and spot.

Swapping potency values of Delirium and Souleater doesn't change much if DA+SE is still 400 potency. Applying the Delirium debuff will be a DPS loss and will be discouraged. DA on SE will be "less MP efficient" since the boost will change from 140 to 120 making DP a much better MP investment. If sustained damage is an issue a DRK will use Souleater anyways regardless of it being 20 potency higher or lower. The grand picture of things does not change by swapping said potency values. It just makes Delirium a "worse skill" than it is already with a MNK in party.

Would be easier to split dragon kick effects IMO.
Like have the dragon kick give blunt debuff, so it remain part of the main rotation. Put int- on a prpe existing underutilized skill, like say 1 ilm punch, with proper tp/damage adjustments.

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Originally Posted by DestinovaTrueblade

Would be easier to split dragon kick effects IMO.
Like have the dragon kick give blunt debuff, so it remain part of the main rotation. Put int- on a prpe existing underutilized skill, like say 1 ilm punch, with proper tp/damage adjustments.

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'Easier' sure.

But it would be 'better' if they actually looked into Drk completely and fixed the bad problem they have of being selfish in style yet still asking others to bring things for them.

They have terrible group synergy, and bring nothing to the group save for the option to not take a Monk (Outside of the "Warrior is ONLY allowed to EVER OT, and Pld is ONLY allowed to MT mindset). But guess what, your buddy is a monk and you're a Drk, now you gotta deal with it and bring absolutely nothing to the group besides less then War damage. I mean you'd be better off taking a 2nd War at that point, which people have, because they're double War'ing A3S. Or a Pally as an OT who can hold a Drk's DPS fine + brings OP clemency modified by Defiance, Divine Veil, the only STR down debuff in the game (Which people for some reason act like doesn't exist, yet praise Int down like it's the heaven sent debuff we all asked for), cover, Hollowed, ETC.

I mean, Drk is good in their damage department, and for some people, damage and making to to the end of a fight is all that matters. Those are the type of people however that are best ignored for real balances sake, and not the silly idea of balance they somehow developed in their head.