A heated debate is still on-going it seems as to whether the paladin needs a buff. I haven't experienced enough of the 3.0 endgame to really add to the debate as I've only just reached ilvl170. I do, however have one suggestion that would really improve the paladin's battle style (is that a term?), that wouldn't mess up the current balance (or lack of balance).
My suggestion is to add more shield skills for the paladin, or change the animations of some of the paladins skills to incorporate the shield a little more. One example could be that when using sheltron, the paladin could hold the shield directly in front of him until the effect ends.
Just simple things like that would really improve the visuals on the paladin in my opinion. What are your thoughts?
Paladin Suggestion
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08-27-2015, 06:29 AMThunderGodThorPaladin Suggestion
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08-27-2015, 07:35 AMPhoenicia
Well, the way SE is operating with this game is that they have a set of 18 class actions, 13 class traits, and 10 job actions. DRK, MCH and AST being an exception where they have 28 job actions and 13 job traits but that's because they have no base class. Point is, SE wouldn't just add actions.
Changing animations? I'm indifferent. I think PLD animations look cool. Specially Rage of Halone, Royal Authority (this one is my favorite) and Sheltron looks bad-ass. Shield Bash has a lot of "oomf" into it so it looks satisfying. Shield Swipe is kinda ridiculous but this is a game with talking dragons and flying cats and whales, I wouldn't argue efficiency from a martial arts PoV. lol
I have posted else where what I think the PLD needs, but I'll list them here:
- Give PLD more enmity generation. It'll fix a lot of their issues (aggro and DPS wise).
- Remove the clunk tied to their enormous utility. Clemency doesn't have to be a 3s cast. Make it 2.5 to be inline with the other heals. Give the PLD a cast interruption prevention trait.
- Fix PLD's TP issues. Either via direct TP regain, Shield Swipe "buff" or the above point of removed clunk from utility encouraging Non-TP GCD usage. Why not all three?
That is what I have in mind that I think would fix all of PLD's issues. -
08-27-2015, 08:29 AMArannonI'd say a bit faster than 2.5s...primarily because skill speed doesn't lower it like how spell speed will lower things for the healers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
So either a bit faster than 2.5s, or make it so the ability is quickened from skill speed instead of spell speed.
This is also why I'm such a big fan of making Royal Authorities "Thing" be that it quickens spell casts. We're the only class currently that has to deal with both physical actions and non-instant spells. -
08-27-2015, 08:48 AMPhoeniciaYeah, but as a melee and tank, casting shouldn't be your "thing". Even if you have "casts", you shouldn't be as good or fast as the actual casters. Still I see no reason for it to be a 3s cast. 2.5s is more reasonable. Getting a trait to prevent interruption should be more than enough too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arannon
Also remember, this isn't supposed to be like Equilibrium. WAR "needs" self heals to function since it receives less effective healing (5% less from spells, 25% from abilities). WAR's Equilibrium is there to help them survive. Your Clemency is there to allow you to help healers alleviate some of the healing stress. It is more of an OT utility rather than MT surviving thing. -
08-27-2015, 09:15 AMLambdafish
The one thing that I want to see from PLD is a single target attack that uses MP (enmity generation would be a bonus). I say this because my go to for when I run out of TP is flash spam until my TP is back to a sufficient place. obviously this is useless for an OT, and for an MT that has sufficient hate, extra damage would be much more beneficial.
Minor tweaks to clemency and other skills to make them more useful would be nice, but this is the big thing that I want
Stoneskin IIQuote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-27-2015, 09:29 AMArannonAnd the restrictive MP cost is enough of a limitation don't you think? I mean, we don't have a huge MP pool, and none our gear is going to make it any better, and making our pool larger by melding for it isn't really all that effective is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Theres also the fact that at best we're currently looking at "two" (One cross class) spells we can cast. So its not like we've got a huge array of them to begin with. Casting "ISNT" our thing, but not because of how fast we could cast...or how strong our spells are...its because of the lack of things we CAN cast.
As for Warriors...they don't really need all that DPS to tank either...but they've still got it...our Utility should be strong, and like you said, less clunky. -
08-27-2015, 09:31 AMPhoeniciaThe single exception. Also if you read my comment, I had "just" there somewhere. SE takes things into consideration but they try to stick to their formula of 18+13+10. They wouldn't add 2 or 3 random shield skills just to add them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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08-27-2015, 09:37 AMLambdafishI'm not asking for 2 or 3 random new skills, I asked for one, and it doesn't even need to be one if skills can be tweaked to fix the problem. I was simply pointing out that SE can and have added new skills when they feel they need toQuote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-27-2015, 09:43 AMArannon
Stoneskin 2 is an exception...something to fill a convenience gap, not something added because they couldn't think of some other way to handle it...
Everyone wants Stoneskin before a pull, but in 8 mans its tedious having to go through each person to put it up, takes most of a minute...and thats a minute everyones sitting there anxious to get started. It was added because nobody likes just sitting there waiting. Especially on fights where you wipe, and wipe, and wipe some more.
Theres nothing Paladins need like that...I figure those are more likely gonna be saved for whenever the level cap would be raised again...(I'd like to see more shield-bashy style abilities too) -
08-27-2015, 09:52 AMHitoseijuro
Things I would like to see for pld:
1) Help with their TP problems. Mayhaps something that drains a certain amount of your mana and converts it to TP(this would help Sword stance, probably should only be available in that stance). Or put our blocking to good use and make it so that when you block you get a certain amount of TP back(this should be a shield stance kind of thing).
2) Give another ogcd damage ability. We have storm and spirit's within, we've had those and only those for the longest now.
3) The transition between shield and sword and vice versa could be better.
4) Agreed with the clemency casting issue. -
08-27-2015, 09:59 AMPhoeniciaThe "prohibitive" MP is there to prevent you from main healing a fight. At 1200 potency you're healing a bit more than Cure II can. For the purpose it serves (emergency heals), costing 40% of you MP bar is "acceptable". You also have ways to recover MP via Riot Blade and Sheltron. I think PLD can easily fit in 5 to 6 Clemencies in a minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arannon
WAR's DPS is vital to its kit. The original design of WAR is a drain-tank. While it was shifted to a mitigation tank, it still has gaps to fill through draining. Those gaps are: Less effective healing received. Slightly weaker CDs than PLD's.
I'm not saying WAR is weaker than PLD. The entire toolkit of WAR is strong. It's actually stronger than PLD's even in terms of mitigation. A warrior turtling hard WILL out-mitigate a PLD simply because of ridiculous uptime on some of their abilities. But turtling on WAR hurts its DPS massively since it involves certain GCD manipulation. But skill-to-skill comparison, WAR's abilities are slightly weaker than PLD. WAR has to couple abilities together to increase their effectiveness.
In short, WAR "needs" all that DPS. It IS part of their mitigation as tanks. -
08-27-2015, 11:18 AMrawker
Stoneskin II was needed since WHM have graniteskin which, btw is no longer a thing in HW. So casting Stoneskin II now is really not mandatory anymore. I have been in some duty roulette parties where the healer doesn't even bother casting stoneskin.
As for PLD tweaks, i agree that their enmity generation be increased... esp Flash since lol no damage. At least give it a huge enmity generation to compensate. Clemency cast time is very debatable for me though i welcome a cast time reduction on it. Please remove the trigger req for Divine Veil. As for TP issues, i might suggest Sheltron to restore TP over time while the buff is up and is removed upon blocking. This will make it useful even as OT.
Edit. I know it will be a bit OP but what if Clemency had a chance(like 15%) where the targeted player will get a galvanize effect equivalent to 20% of the amount healed? -
08-27-2015, 12:00 PMPooky_Pasha
Just something I would consider for Royal Authority: 20% the next Clemency requires no casting time (and maybe reduced mp cost).
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08-27-2015, 12:10 PMrawker
I also remembered reading something somewhere, a suggestion for Shield Swipe that will trigger combo effects, like Swipe to gore/royal/halone. I also like that one
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08-27-2015, 02:47 PMXenosan
Developed a crackpot today, something like a chaining Cooldown combinations that would provide an added bonus, I'd enjoy that.
~> Awareness > Sheltron = Added effect to Awarenss
~> Tempered Will > Sheltron = Added effect to TW
Maybe some chains more elaborate
~> Tempered Will > Awareness > Sheltron = Even better Added Effect
etc etc
Trouble deciding what combinations or bonus effects would be appropriate (added effects should synergy with the CDs used, but contrary don't want to beat a dead horse). But this could be interesting. Add some complexity and consideration for CD rotations, especially if some of the possible bonus effects were the good stuffs like preventing cast interruption, spell/skill speed, TP return, refreshing a buff duration, aggro, or adding a DoT/Debuff/AoE to XYZ ability. -
08-27-2015, 05:27 PMNadirah
Shield swipe, off GCD
Bulwark, add thorns effect
Flash, trait that applies STR down(ir RoH) rather than lolblind.
RA apply STR down
Flash trait, apply Slow
Make bosses not immune to blind
Up enmity multiplier
Any mix of or all of the above -
08-27-2015, 05:40 PMPhoeniciaIt'd be better if it remained on GCD but had a higher potency so it is not a DPS loss. It would serve as a TP management tool. Removing it to oGCD would be nice if the PLD gets a fix to TP somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadirah
Sheltron too! Maybe reduce Bulwark's CD to 2 minutes?Quote:
Bulwark, add thorns effect
Umm, I think that'd be OP lol. Unless Unleash applied Delirium and Steel Cyclone applied Path. But why not? :oQuote:
Flash, trait that applies STR down(ir RoH) rather than lolblind.
None of the classes applies a debuff on their strongest combo. Dunno, I'm indifferent about this one.Quote:
RA apply STR down
Slow instead of blind? Would be cool but I guess redundant with Shadow Flare? Dunno.Quote:
Flash trait, apply Slow
Tank Busters don't miss, making them miss would make the game too RNG dependant. Auto attack is fluff and them missing is no huge deal. But even if that happens, bosses would end up getting immune thanks to SMN/SCH's Ruin II. lolQuote:
Make bosses not immune to blind
Yes please. This would fix all of PLD's DPS issues too.Quote:
Up enmity multiplier
I would add Clemency to 2.5 seconds cast.Quote:
Any mix of or all of the above
Divine Veil not requiring a trigger heal or reduced CD to 120s... or both? why not?
Cover should cover magical damage too. -
08-27-2015, 07:40 PMKydiI think I'd prefer this to be oGCD. My suggestion would be to have this as a counterpart to reprisal. Make it oGCD and instead of damage down add a refresh buff for the PLD for 20s to help with the TP management, but a recast of 30s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Could be interesting. Don't really have any strong feelings about thorns either way. Reduced Bulwark CD would only be necessary (IMO) if it also enabled magic damage blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Yeah, would be OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Delirium is the DRKs strongest (unbuffed) combo. I'd agree though, RA is fine the way it is, except the enmity multiplier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
If it were to stack with SF it would be interesting, but non-plussed about this one really. Would be interesting if it would perhaps buff circle of scorn damage for a short period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Non-plussed with blinding bosses, but agreed that making tank buster resistance subject to RNG is a horrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Agree 100%. At least bring us in line with the WAR and DRK enmity multipliers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Would be nice. It would also be good if rather than healing the PLD it gave them a shield of equal value, but couldn't crit. That would mean a much lower chance to waste the cast due to overhealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Both please, but would rather the not requiring a heal (and not being knocked off by receiving a heal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Cover should be a group wide buff - players behind the PLD get 50% redirected damage from all sources for 10s or something like that. It would still need some coordination (so as not to nuke the paladin with redirected damage and to know when to move) but would make it more user friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Some additional changes:
Shelltron - would be good if this also blocked magic damage as it would give the PLD the short cooldown defensive that WAR/DRK have for magic (IB/DM respectively). Increase the CD to 45s to compensate for the buff.
Goring Blade - as both DRK and WAR can apply two debuffs, it would be good to add a second for PLD (imo). I'd suggest that it should be a party offensive buff though, rather than a damage down. I would suggest that goring blade apply an additional 15s vulnerability debuff to increase damage taken from physical attacks by 5%. Keeping the debuff up 100% of the time would be a dps loss for the PLD due to clipping goring blade but a boost for physical dps, but the extra burst windows would make up for the generally lower dps of PLD. Perhaps to prevent this being OP add a 45s resistance to it once it wears off (so the buff would be up every third goring blade). -
08-27-2015, 11:11 PMHeavenswordOne animation that bothers me as PLD is Shield Lob. Ever wondered how we actually got our shield back after tossing it? Animation certainly doesn't show it boomerang back or something. Not only it is impractical and dangerous to execute in real life perspective, it looks even more ridiculous on character model that you see your shield flying out, but at the same time it is still attached to your left arm... But seriously, you guys ever wondered how we retrieved our shield? So far, it goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
1. Throw shield
2. Target goes "Ow!"
3. ???
4. Um... can I have my shield back? xD -
08-28-2015, 08:26 AMSeku
Shield swipe fix (oGCD, cut it's potency back, Small tp restore effect added to it)
Lower PLD's new heal spell down to 2.5 seconds.
Shield block during casts.
Add a Spell speed boost to Royal authority for a single spell or a small duration that effects all it's spells.
Get rid of conditional heal for DV proct and just let it prevent 10% damage for the raid.
End result: Self-sufficient tank that has better "defense" through support spells that can be used on their allies in a timely manner. Because popping up a fast stone skin would be pretty damn awesome when you see a cast bar with a tank buster and your name on it.
Needs to be done sometime in the 3.x series, as all current abilities PLD has should have been done back in 2.x. -
08-28-2015, 11:19 AMShadowskill
Divine veil - remove the activation with a heal. just allow it to be used.
Greatly increase the Enmity generation. <not the over all DPS>
Add more Party wide utility to help give it that edge so to speak that makes groups want it more, like lowering the recast on Cover. or maybe turn Sheltron into a conal cover.
Paladin is the Protector? -
08-28-2015, 04:54 PMNadirah
Personally I'd prefer more reliability and less RNG. Proccing stuff annoys me, such as adding a tp restore to shield swipe. Useless as OT.
I'd prefer if RA apply STR down and outright replace RoH; hate trying to maintain that debuff. Just one more thing to track.
Personal opinion ofc. -
08-28-2015, 05:18 PMUltimatecalibur
Shield Swipe - Increase potency to 230 and maintain the x3 enmity (increase to 3.5 if the SB and RoH base multipliers are increased), GCD and 40 TP cost. This will be a DpS and enmity gain when using the GB -> RoH -> RA rotation and an enmity jump when using GB -> RA -> RA rotation. Shield Swipe's main problem in 60 content has been that it is a loss on everything but TP meaning that it procing is useless.
Tempered Will- Add a surecast effect to it. This will improve TW's utility by making it a 1 per/3 minutes guaranteed Stoneskin/Clemency in fights without Knockbacks/Heavy.
Sheltron - Add a surecast effect. This will make it slightly useful when OTing and when MTing in magic heavy fights.
Circle of Scorn - Increase potency to 200 and DoT potency to 60. This will double the Paladin's pitiful AoE damage while being only a slight increase to single target DpS. -
08-28-2015, 05:36 PMReynhartNinja also don't work that way. If you only count the real actions, they had 6 at level 50 against 5 for other jobs. And if you count all the different effects, they had 9.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Well, actually, it shoud. Or else we wouldn't be the only melee job tied to a caster class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-28-2015, 07:06 PMPhoeniciaNIN has 5 + 1 extra button (Ninjutsu) to activate the Ninjutsu. You had to get it with the Ten sign, otherwise those hand signs wouldn't trigger by themselves. That is why it got 1 more button. Yes, NIN and AST have additional "actions" but they're all tied to something else. They STILL follow the overall 18+13+10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
EDIT: Also ACN class and its jobs have a gazillion more abilities than the other classes via pet abilities. They are still considered to follow the 18+13+10 formula. Speaking of SMN, that formula is the main reason SMNs aren't getting more egis.
You are still a melee tank with a pure melee class base, being tied to a caster class doesn't make casting "your thing". Even if it were, you shouldn't be as good as the pure casters.Quote:
Well, actually, it shoud. Or else we wouldn't be the only melee job tied to a caster class.
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08-28-2015, 09:11 PMXenosanI would like a Swipe adjustment like this over oGCD: ie simply justify its GCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Thought it gave me of a different approach - instead off buffing Swipe's potency & modifiers to justify it's GCD within a combo - Swipe could add a buff (combo bonus) to the next WS: providing a potency & aggro modifier addition to the next WS used (a 2nd combo bonus). Quid Pro Quo buff for RA/RoH/Goring or CoS if it's an AOE situation.
I guess PLD OT would hope for raids with lots of physical splash damage to get a Fast > Riot > Swipe > Goring.