Elder Primal?

Heya might be nuthing but i beat bismarck extreme and then went back to inn room and looked through the unending journey and went to the bottom and it says Elder Primal quests and it says the Diabolical Bismark so my question is is he a elder primal?

Huh! It's in the journal too. That whole questline is in there. I wonder if Ravana and Bismarck are actually Elder Primals.

I'm thinking they are.

Especially since there are legends about somebody plucking their eye out a long time ago and said "eye" is the key to defeating them in the EX quests

To further support the theory, Bismarck is an old legend told among the Roegadyn, and since the Vanu Vanu have been up in the Sea of Clouds at least as far back as the Allagans, we can reason it out that they have likely worshiped the White for that long.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

To further support the theory, Bismarck is an old legend told among the Roegadyn, and since the Vanu Vanu have been up in the Sea of Clouds at least as far back as the Allagans, we can reason it out that they have likely worshiped the White for that long.

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True but there legends don't really match with the Bismarck we fight. Their legends describe a benevolent creature.

Ravana's dialog in the MSQ seems to suggest he is new too. He seems to describe himself as the Gnath's desires made manifest.

Of course Im bias cause I'm still like the theory that the original Bismarck was a Allagan warship capable of submersing to visit aquatic Allagan sites such as Seal Rock.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

True but there legends don't really match with the Bismarck we fight. Their legends describe a benevolent creature.

Ravana's dialog in the MSQ seems to suggest he is new too. He seems to describe himself as the Gnath's desires made manifest.

Of course Im bias cause I'm still like the theory that the original Bismarck was a Allagan warship capable of submersing to visit aquatic Allagan sites such as Seal Rock.

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The Roegadyn legends describe a giant whale, not necessarily as benevolent or malevolent. He could have been their equivalent of Moby Dick and have gone around destroying ships. And I am very much so against the idea of every Primal having a basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

The Roegadyn legends describe a giant whale, not necessarily as benevolent or malevolent. He could have been their equivalent of Moby Dick and have gone around destroying ships. And I am very much so against the idea of every Primal having a basis in fact.

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Yes but how did a Roegadyn legend of a ocean whale become shared by a group of birdlike beastmen living in clouds in the sky? Are we really assuming the Vanu Vanu legend is true and the whale from Roegadyn legend got beaten up by other whales, got blessed by a goddess and turned into a sky whale? If so how did it carry the Vanu Vanu to the sky in the first place? Regardless of the origins there has to be some reason that the Sea Wolves share a legend with a beasttribe when the two almost certainly never interacted before.

It could easily be the First Umbral Calamity. The Age of Gods ends with a Wind aspected calamity, which could explain the origin myth of the Vanu Vanu and the wind crystals that hold the sky islands aloft. The Vanu Vanu may have lived alongside the Roegadyn and shared myths, and when the calamity occurred, the Vanu Vanu were raised to the skies and the Roegadyn left on the ground. It's more likely than blaming absolutely every Primal's origins on the Allagans.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

It could easily be the First Umbral Calamity. The Age of Gods ends with a Wind aspected calamity, which could explain the origin myth of the Vanu Vanu and the wind crystals that hold the sky islands aloft. The Vanu Vanu may have lived alongside the Roegadyn and shared myths, and when the calamity occurred, the Vanu Vanu were raised to the skies and the Roegadyn left on the ground. It's more likely than blaming absolutely every Primal's origins on the Allagans.

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I don't think all primal origins are Allag. Most I suspect aren't. The Allag solution to the Bismarck origin just seemed to fit well. This combined with the fact that we know the Allag were involved with at least some of the beastmen and the fact that the Moggles indicate that most of the sky islands were once a single floating landmass. If the destruction of that landmass, which sounds like the Fire Calamity, included the lands in the Sea of Clouds, and with Moogle structures there its quite possible, It would suggest that the Vanu Vanu some time later since their legends don't include any firey destruction and credit the existence of the sky Islands to Bismarck.

Again, I don't want or think all primal origins are linked to the Allagans. Im even hoping the Void Ark isn't Allagan. Im currently more interested in the astral eras we know nothing about.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Especially since there are legends about somebody plucking their eye out a long time ago and said "eye" is the key to defeating them in the EX quests

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Wait, is the Eye in the Bismark quest supposed to be Bismark's? It's listed as the Weeping Eye of the Manukmanai. I may have missed quest text linking Manukmanai to Bismark, but so far I've got nothing. All I can say for sure, according to quest text, is that Manukmanai hunted the Vanu Vanu for generations following a war with "a tribe from the nethers" during which the Manukmanai came "to feast on the bodies of the fallen." Neither of those sound like something Bismark would do, though...

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

All I can say for sure, according to quest text, is that Manukmanai hunted the Vanu Vanu for generations following a war with "a tribe from the nethers" during which the Manukmanai came "to feast on the bodies of the fallen." Neither of those sound like something Bismark would do, though...

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Sounds like something Garuda famously did, though... Now, obviously the Vanu Vanu aren't snakes, so I'm not sure where the Lord of Snakes would have come from for the Ixalis version of the legend... Oh wait; Waukkeon and his kind!

Lets see... According to the Ixali legend... The Lord of Snakes tried to prevent the Ixali from flying, before Garuda saved the day and feasted on his remains... We now know the Ixali originated from Azys Lla, or a similar facility, which the Vanu Vanu have some close relation to (guarding its Key and everything)... Theory; The Lord of Snakes wasn't trying to prevent the Ixali from flying, he was trying to cast them out of the clouds, the Sea of Clouds...

Arguable that would make Garuda an Elder Primal as well, unless the Garuda that battled the Lord of Snakes wasn't a Primal and we instead have a similar situation to Saint Shiva and Icehearts' Shiva.

Could the Malukmani (or how ever it's spelled) actually have been one of the sea serpents if Sea Wolf myth and Bismark taken the Vanu Vanu to the Sea of Clouds for protection?

Lets say Bismark was a Mighty White Whale that was hunted by anouther, Darker Collored sea beast and was granted the power to fly (if it wanted) and the sightings ths Sea Wolves have of Bismark is legendary times was when The Great Whale Bismark decended intonthe Seas to combat a great serpent and save the Vanu Vanu.

The that fills all the gaps. And Primal Bismark is just a perverted memory of The White brought forth from the primal summoning.

Maybe the Manukmanai have something to do with the Void Ark?

Manukmanai ---> Makai --> Mhachi

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Maybe the Manukmanai have something to do with the Void Ark?

Manukmanai ---> Makai --> Mhachi

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Ooooh! I like that idea. Dark whale-like being hunting the White. Alternatively, Unukalai and Manukmanai have quite the name similarity, don't they?

Going to jump in here ever so briefly to state that "Elder Primal Quests" was a mistake made in those 300 hour 3.0 months. This category will be renamed to "Heavensward Primal Quests" in a future update. Why this particularly phrasing, you may wonder? Well, it is important that the category be broad, for various reasons which will become apparent in time.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion!

Corvinoobus, you are a hero, as usual.

Ok, so maybe they aren't all Elder Primals then. Corvinoobus did say they left it broad, so maybe Bismarck is an Elder Primal, though the Vanu Vanu made it sound like his appearance was new.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Ok, so maybe they aren't all Elder Primals then. Corvinoobus did say they left it broad, so maybe Bismarck is an Elder Primal, though the Vanu Vanu made it sound like his appearance was new.

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I recall Elder Primal specifically meaning that tge primal has been worshiped for an exceptionally long period of time. Thus why Bahamut is an Elder Primal and Phoenix isn't despite Phoenix over powering Bahamut. So if the Primal has only recently been summoned it's not an Elder.
Though my theory for Eikons is that they, uniquly, dont require a summoner and can, to an extent, summon them selves given the aether and time to aquire it. See Odin Trial CSs for an examples.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Ok, so maybe they aren't all Elder Primals then. Corvinoobus did say they left it broad, so maybe Bismarck is an Elder Primal.

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Nah. This is more like the confusion that used to exist over Midgardsormr as well. Many of us used to think that he was a primal, because of similar labelling errors in official texts.

As Kaiser-Ace said, an elder primal is simply a primal that's been around for a very, very, very long time. Odin is widely regarded by most Eorzeans as an "elder" primal for that reason.

But things are a little bit different now, with the recent revelations about eikons. And we don't know very much yet about what these entities actually are.

I have a question about something along these lines.

Is SIN from FF10 a summoned Primal would be be a elder primal if so?


Would SIN ever make it to FFXIV in the future updates or expansions if he is a primal?

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

I have a question about something along these lines.

Is SIN from FF10 a summoned Primal would be be a elder primal if so?

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In a way yes to both.

*FF10 Spoilers*
It turns out SIN is actually an Aeon it's self summoned by Yu Yevon roughly a thousand years prior to the plot. And Yu Yevon possesses The Final Aeon used to kill it in order to resummon sin. The 1st being Lord Zion and final being Sir Jecht.
*End of FF 10 spoilers*

So Aoens could be stated to be a direct parallel to primals in the FF10 world.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

In a way yes to both.

*FF10 Spoilers*
It turns out SIN is actually an Aeon it's self summoned by Yu Yevon roughly a thousand years prior to the plot. And Yu Yevon possesses The Final Aeon used to kill it in order to resummon sin. The 1st being Lord Zion and final being Sir Jecht.
*End of FF 10 spoilers*

So Aoens could be stated to be a direct parallel to primals in the FF10 world.

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The real question I had from FF10 was what was Penance? Sadly FF10-2 never touched on it.


On the elder primal thing though, Im wondering if Ramuh is one. Its curious that he talks as if he has been around for a long time and in the SMN quests the explaination on why the attempt to summon an Egi of him is that the play doesn't have a sufficient Aether to sustain an Egi form of a primal that strong. That would make him stronger than Ifrit, Titan and Garuda.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

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No no, I know that Elder Primals are different based on age. I meant that the idea everyone was exploring in this thread - that Bismarck and Ravana were Elder Primals - wasn't necessarily correct based on Corvinoobus's statement. But Corvin did leave the subject open to that journal section possibly including Elder Primals currently, or in the future.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

On the elder primal thing though, Im wondering if Ramuh is one. Its curious that he talks as if he has been around for a long time and in the SMN quests the explaination on why the attempt to summon an Egi of him is that the play doesn't have a sufficient Aether to sustain an Egi form of a primal that strong. That would make him stronger than Ifrit, Titan and Garuda.

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On face value, Ramuh isn't an elder primal. By that, I mean no one in the game refers to Ramuh as an "elder". I suppose it's because Ramuh is regarded as the god of the sylphs, and they don't seem to predate the Sixth Astral Era. In contrast, Odin has been around since at least the Third Astral Era, some 5,000 years ago.

That said, you won't be the last to wonder how Ramuh could then claim to remember a time before the split between Light and Darkness. Some have suggested that this could merely be the "imprinted" memory derived from the collective prayer of the sylphs. I've also suggested that it could be the primordial memory of the lightning-aspected aether that comprises Ramuh. Frankly, given the lack of hard evidence, anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I suppose it's because Ramuh is regarded as the god of the sylphs, and they don't seem to predate the Sixth Astral Era.

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I wonder what makes you say that? Not saying it isn't true, because there is no evidence for or against it in the game itself, but given how the Sylphs have always been rather secluded to the Black Shroud and man wasn't allowed to reside in it until they made peace with the Elementals, the Sylphs could easily have resided there for millenia without man being any wiser to their existence. (And frankly we do need a Beasttribe that isn't there because "Allagans", or Ascians for that matter.)

On the topic of Rahmu, it's worth noting that Rahmu himself has forbidden his summoning and up until the waning of the 6th Astral Era they were to afraid to summon him lest they invoke his wrath by doing so.

And on the topic of Allag and the beast tribes, The Ixali are the only beast tribe to have ANY valid connection to them. The Pre-Ixali found in The Fractal Continuum were made by Allag but evolved into the Ixali with out aid. For all we know The Vanu Vanu came into contact with the 1st Ixali to not be able to fly and were intrusted with the Key to Azys Lla (Later to be call Atliyan or what ever) incase the Ixali were ever able to come back. Then years in and near the twelves wood deteriorated their genetics even further to where even their wings started disappearing. The Ixali being an artificial life form (Their ancestors being 100% engineered from scratch) could be why the Elementals don't like them as well.

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

Going to jump in here ever so briefly to state that "Elder Primal Quests" was a mistake made in those 300 hour 3.0 months. This category will be renamed to "Heavensward Primal Quests" in a future update. Why this particularly phrasing, you may wonder? Well, it is important that the category be broad, for various reasons which will become apparent in time.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion!

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Sooo this is basically confirmation that we'll be facing an Elder Primal as part of the 3.X quest series. Nice.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Sooo this is basically confirmation that we'll be facing an Elder Primal as part of the 3.X quest series. Nice.

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Not to mention that this pretty much seals the deal on us facing regular Primals for the 3.X quest series as well (as if there was any doubt on that).

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Sooo this is basically confirmation that we'll be facing an Elder Primal as part of the 3.X quest series. Nice.

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Yep. Though I imagine any and all aetheric beigns introduced in HW will be lumped into this category.

I think until we get a bit of a clearer understanding on the differences between normal primals, elder primals and Eikons are. Eikons clearly display characteristics that other primals don't have such as Odin's apparent ability to operate and exist without any living worshippers.

Currently elder primals seem to just be primals that have been around for a long time. Unless there is some aspect to the age of a Primal effecting its strength this doesn't really necessarily mean an elder primal would be stronger than a normal, recently summoned one. For all we learned about primals recently there is a hell of a lot we still don't know about them.

ugh, freaking keyboard deleted my post. going to make a short version of it.

(bit of offtopic, dont got enough time to discuss the elder primals stuff, but well regarding Garuda:)

Vanu and ixal dont look much alike. in a real far fetch way:

I kinda can imagine ixal and vanu being 2 rival tribes (knowingly that ixals come from azys lla [ayathlan]) ixals had somehow escaped from there.

i could imagine Vanu for some reason using the lord of snakes(sanuwas), could be wuwukaeon(or whatever its the last boss of Neveragain) and well, create that kind of mith.


But this does not make sense for me, in fact, i don't think vanu and ixal are related at all, only being 2 birdlike monster, like lizardmen (Amal'ja) with another reptilians.

What i would place my bets, is that after the abandonnement of azys lla (2500 years ago) many monsters started fleeing, as its to be expected (example, the naga of the quarantine hall)

I can imagine the lord of the serpents being sometihing like the Melusine, but, well, a male naga. that in Azys lla, ''didn't wanted ixals to fly'' wich can have multiple meanings, could even be just a Allagan doing experiments on ixals or so. or just a real naga eating ixals...

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Originally Posted by -Krypyonite-

I can imagine the lord of the serpents being sometihing like the Melusine, but, well, a male naga. that in Azys lla, ''didn't wanted ixals to fly'' wich can have multiple meanings, could even be just a Allagan doing experiments on ixals or so. or just a real naga eating ixals...

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Well, snakes do eat birds.

Let's say some naga or dragon, even, escaped and was trying to eat the Ixalions and an Allag chick saves them, maybe takes them down to the surface?

Something along those lines, though, I'm guessing.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Well, snakes do eat birds.

Let's say some naga or dragon, even, escaped and was trying to eat the Ixalions and an Allag chick saves them, maybe takes them down to the surface?

Something along those lines, though, I'm guessing.

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2500 years later (Give or take) Said woman becomes feathered Goddess who lost her sanity from eating said snake. Ya know, ignoring the fact that she was just an Allagan Scientist working on bird people who stopped another allagan scientist's "Snake Man" [Kupo]ing up her Bird Man experiment.

What if the Vanu Vanu were once roegadyn? Allagans experimented on them, charged them with keeping the key to azys lla...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

What if the Vanu Vanu were once roegadyn? Allagans experimented on them, charged them with keeping the key to azys lla...

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Thats so far fetched it's not even amusing. >_> now I'll buy the Gigas being Roegadyn slaves that were mutated along with Phelgatheon for starting a rebellion. But the Vanu Vanu aren't even built remotly close to a Roe. Vanu Vanu are too short and fat. iirc Vanu Vanu are slightly shorter than a midlander.

I'll just leave this here. 'Cause relevant.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

[EDIT] inb4: "Using Anonymoose's method I have discerned that the Vanu Vanu are actually over-tempered Sea Wolf ancestors."

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2833668

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Originally Posted by PArcher

What if the Vanu Vanu were once roegadyn? Allagans experimented on them, charged them with keeping the key to azys lla...

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I am more inclined to think that they might be related to Owlbears/ Bagoly:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...Badu_FFXII.png
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2.../Vanu_Vanu.png

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Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

the Diabolical Bismark

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hahaha.

I love the culture references in FFXV Quest names.