Bard Damage Reduction in PVP

I'd like to confirm whether or not the damage reduction based on range is applied to Mechanists as well? It would be very unfair if it only applied to Bards...

Also I feel like I am struggling to compete with other characters (as a Bard) given only one of two choices.

1. I use my new abilities in Wanderer's Minuet (and unsurprisingly fail to hit my targets in the proper sweet spot, because of the cast time, essentially dealing negligible damage)

2. Fight using the same abilities I had pre 3.0, essentially meaning I am fighting as a glorified level 50 character.

is there any good reason Bards still have the damage reduction in PVP given their new ability removes their mobility, or did SE just forget?

I don't like this either but I do ok on Bard. I have found that I do better on Warrior and have just gone to that mostly. I have tried healing and that is a nightmare and will never do it again unless we do not have any healers at all.

Bards never did dmg, they were always freekill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtD7Ppk1EY

Machinist gets the same damage penalty as well.

GB/WM is only really good for bursting, and that's it. You can't stay stationary as a blm since you won't pump out teh same damage as them or re actively adjust your range to sweet spot. Most you can do is just stand back and interrupt casts on the healers/casters.

At the very least they should take off the range penalty with GB/WM, since we're functionally a caster at that point (with 100% interrupt rates and cast times) but lack the damage to justify so.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Bards never died dmg, they were always freekill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtD7Ppk1EY

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shock horror, a class that deals less damage the closer you are to them, does low damage when you are right next to them

Bards in thier sweet spot are a very potent threat in den, less so in frontlines

I've seen Bards do excellently reliably, at least in the realm of damage throughout a match, but...

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

At the very least they should take off the range penalty with GB/WM, since we're functionally a caster at that point (with 100% interrupt rates and cast times) but lack the damage to justify so.

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...I'd be somewhat okay with this. But I believe the reduction should be lowered (halved?), not removed completely. BRD/MCH cast times are low, so there needs to be a balancing factor.

You were pretty lucky his blast shot was on cooldown. or at least i hope it was on cooldown lol

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Originally Posted by Vandril

I've seen Bards do excellently reliably, at least in the realm of damage throughout a match, but...



...I'd be somewhat okay with this. But I believe the reduction should be lowered (halved?), not removed completely. BRD/MCH cast times are low, so there needs to be a balancing factor.

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It's not a problem with the cast time's length, it's that they have to stand still for it. The consequence esasperates the ranged penalty since they are supposed to be reactively moving to stay within sweet spot range. MCH can move with their shot procs, but their sustained damage is relatively low, requires ammo to be reliable, and their burst is tied to BtE and a reassembled clean shot.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's not a problem with the cast time's length, it's that they have to stand still for it. The consequence esasperates the ranged penalty since they are supposed to be reactively moving to stay within sweet spot range. MCH can move with their shot procs, but their sustained damage is relatively low, requires ammo to be reliable, and their burst is tied to BtE and a reassembled clean shot.

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I got that. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. ...Or am I misunderstanding you? It is late, after all...

What I was trying to express was that it isn't exactly the same situation with BLM and BRD/MCH using WM/GB. Sure, they both have to stand there and cast, but - correct me if I'm wrong, as this is hearsay on my part - BLM cast times tend to be longer than BRD/MCH cast times. The damage bonus from WM/GB overcomes most if not all of the damage difference between BLM and BRD/MCH. Considering similar damage with lower cast times, removing the sweet spot entirely while using WM/GB would likely cause BRD/MCH to become a little too advantageous in PvP.

Assuming what I said above about cast times and damage is true, it would probably be safer (for the sake of class balance) to greatly reduce the damage reductions placed on the BRD/MCH while not in the sweet spot so long as WM/GB is up.

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Originally Posted by Vandril

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The damage difference is applied after all said and done. Even with a 30% damage boost (and you're losing auto attacks on top of this, mind you), a 50% damage penalty (yes it's that high) will have everything hitting like wet noodles and the best you'll do is interrupt casts (which...auto attacks can do, and you can time your hits against their cast times without having a cast time yourself).

A BRD/MCH will not come to the same degree of damage as a BLM. Even with WM/GB included (as well as all the abilities attached), they're still doing comparatively less damage relative to the other classes who are using their 3.0 tool kits as they were in 2.0. What was a 10% difference in class damage output in 2.0, is still present in 3.0 if all classes were using their new skills.

I often don't bother with WM on bard in FL so I can maintain my movement, I wonder if the ability to use it would help boost my DPS, I still consider myself an interupter over a damage class and try to capture tomes and keep would be attackers off our one healer it we have one 😣

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

shock horror, a class that deals less damage the closer you are to them

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I'm pretty sure it's the other way around actually..

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around actually..

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its both, the further you are from the 12 yalm sweet spot (either closer or further away) you lose damage

edit: its 15 yalms not 12, heres the damage profile with distance:

http://emanon.cms.am/wp-content/uploads/yumi_2.png

Really ? First time I've heard of it.

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

Really ? First time I've heard of it.

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Then today is a learning experience

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around actually..

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You lose damageif you're either too close or too far, as the image shows. Having a cast time on top of the damage penalty makes it really hard for bards/machinist to actually turret to the same degree as a BLM, especially when the line between sweet spot and 50% (I didn't even know there was a 80% sweet spot because the distance threshold inbetween is so small in a frantic environment) is so close together.

That might have been justified back in the day but it seems a bit extreme now :O

I dont get why penalize them for being close anyway. They have no advantage and are often wrecked if people close in on them so may as well not nerf their dmg. Oh well. For brds/mch users sake maybe they will do something about it later.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

its both, the further you are from the 12 yalm sweet spot (either closer or further away) you lose damage

edit: its 15 yalms not 12, heres the damage profile with distance:

http://emanon.cms.am/wp-content/uploads/yumi_2.png

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Does this only apply to pvp or pve as well? I would assume pvp only but you never know.

It's only in pvp. Even with the 80% nerf the ability to constantly dps and pick off kills from a far eventually balances things out. It's strict, the 100% should be 3y window and the penalty should be not be in effect when wm is up.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

Does this only apply to pvp or pve as well? I would assume pvp only but you never know.

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PvP only. I probably won't even be playing this game if it applied to PvE as well.

so if i watch the picture 10 - 16 y is 100% damage, 6 - 10 y and 16 - 20 y is 80% damage, and 0 - 6 y and 20 - 25 y is 50% damage? Do that red square mean anything in that pic?

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Originally Posted by Sunako

so if i watch the picture 10 - 16 y is 100% damage, 6 - 10 y and 16 - 20 y is 80% damage, and 0 - 6 y and 20 - 25 y is 50% damage? Do that red square mean anything in that pic?

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0-6m = 40%
7-9m = 50%
10-14m = 80%
15m = 100%
16m = 80%
17-20m = 50%
21m+ = 40%

edit: 0-6m and 21-25m is 40%, not 20%

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

0-6m = 20%
7-9m = 50%
10-14m = 80%
15m = 100%
16m = 80%
17-20m = 50%
21m+ = 20%

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oh did not notice there was 20% somewhere

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Originally Posted by Sunako

oh did not notice there was 20% somewhere

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Yeah its not shown on the picture but was part of the JP community findings

edit: i went back to read it and i am completely stupid, its 40% not 20% >_>

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

I dont get why penalize them for being close anyway. They have no advantage and are often wrecked if people close in on them so may as well not nerf their dmg. Oh well. For brds/mch users sake maybe they will do something about it later.

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I'd also like to point out how laughable the Blast Shot upgrade is that boost the damage potency is. Since blast shot can only be used at point blank now, it's always going to do 50% of it's damage output so boosting the damage is kind of pointless.

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Originally Posted by Tsuole

I'd also like to point out how laughable the Blast Shot upgrade is that boost the damage potency is. Since blast shot can only be used at point blank now, it's always going to do 50% of it's damage output so boosting the damage is kind of pointless.

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agreed, i dont see why blast shot doesnt have the same immunity to damage reduction from range like far shot does

The truth of the matter Tsuole is that the ol grandfather clock has struck midnight for brds and its time to find something else. (unless your standards allow you to settle for being merely a killstealer/mp sink for the healers ) Brd's been kept on a short chain by necessity due to its ease of damage so there WAS some logic behind the ranged penalties. But with the alterations to barrage (pre-3.0 was beautiful...but this forcing into WM to be worthwhile is a deathstroke, especially if you're personally getting zerged and shadowbind is down) there are just better options out there.

Ona side note...i'm just curious why Yoshi felt the need to gimp blastshot to death (what is it...5 yalms, 180 potency which as stated seems pointless with regard to brds ranged penalties, forget the recast timer but its bad) while smns can toss around 3k+ aoe deathflares from a distance with 0 cast time?

The following adjustments have been made to PvP encounters:
The damage penalty incurred due to the distance of a Bard or Machinist from their target will now be reduced when using Wanderer's Minuet or Gauss Barrel.

Patch 3.07

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Originally Posted by TwiissTwiiss

The following adjustments have been made to PvP encounters:
The damage penalty incurred due to the distance of a Bard or Machinist from their target will now be reduced when using Wanderer's Minuet or Gauss Barrel.

Patch 3.07

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Called it!

Just like I was hoping. Reduced, not removed entirely.

I just hope it was reduced sufficiently. Lowering the damage reduction from a max of 60% to a max of 30% (1/2 reduction to the...reduction) or 20% (2/3 reduction to the...reduction) is something I imagine would prove sufficient.

I don't even play a BRD, but I'm happy to see this.

Thing is that we don't even know how much it's reduced. I hate how they don't even specify by their own numbers the original or changed reduction.

I'm glad they're aware of it, but it's difficult to get the numbers. I personally haven't noticed a significant reduction (doing a pathetic 450 x 3 on my barrage EA shots still)

Does anyone else have better information?

My shots are still hitting like wet noodles outside of sweet spot range.