No changes to ninja.

Anyone else disappointed that no tp adjustments are planned for ninja while monk is getting buffed according to live letter translations?

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Anyone else disappointed that no tp adjustments are planned for ninja while monk is getting buffed according to live letter translations?

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They did talk about the tp issue was closer to the end of the live letter.
Pretty much said he was aware of the tp issue.

Excuse me but which NIN TP Problem?
I fought yesterday 30 Mins against Ifrit (while all other DDs died....) and had no issues with TP at all.
Ninjutsus and specific boss mechanics are giving us the time we need to recover TP:

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Originally Posted by Lantia

Excuse me but which NIN TP Problem?
I fought yesterday 30 Mins against Ifrit (while all other DDs died....) and had no issues with TP at all.
Ninjutsus and specific boss mechanics are giving us the time we need to recover TP:

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Heres the problem since we get Armour crush we barely use any 3 step ninjutsu now so we eat through tp faster then ever
remember at 50 with the tp nerfs we got we were about equal to Mnk in TP consumption with ninjutsu cutting into our gcd
Sure not an issue in the primal fight and and some of Alex but look at A2 (yea i know our aoe is so bad some groups just throw us in the walker) A4 can be rough on tp as well.

Armor Crush, and having 700+ skill speed due to the large amount of it on our gear.

Ah, thanks for pointing this out!
As I am still 54 I do not know how it sill be on 60 ^^

But even with Huton refresh I do not feel like using no more Doton or Suiton :)

This is upsetting... I played brd and nin... I think se just wants to get rid of me.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

It's clear they want to make ninjas a one trick pony and not be competitive with monks or dragoons. This upsets me.

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Ninja isn't that bad off yet so keep your britches intact.

Just a matter of time before they add a cast bar to ninjutsu.

How long do you last on a dummy then? I keep hearing that you have TP issues, but still haven't heard anyone mention how long NIN actually lasts.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

How long do you last on a dummy then? I keep hearing that you have TP issues, but still haven't heard anyone mention how long NIN actually lasts.

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At 50, my typical dummy parse was about 4 minutes. At 60, my typical parse is about 2:45. I usually don't even make it to the second Invigorate anymore, even if I'm using Raiton. Sometimes I do if I inadvertently delay an input.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

At 50, my typical dummy parse was about 4 minutes. At 60, my typical parse is about 2:45. I usually don't even make it to the second Invigorate anymore, even if I'm using Raiton. Sometimes I do if I inadvertently delay an input.

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With a lucky tp tick, it's possible to make it to the 2nd ivig without delaying anything (well, depending on sks ofc....). But I agree that shouldn't be the case. If they would lower the tp cost of just one skill in our rotation by ten, we could make it to the 2nd invig without issues. That alone would adress the problem imo.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

If the would lower the tp cost of just one skill in out rotation by ten, we could make it to the 2nd invig without issues. That alone would adress the problem imo.

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They could just revert the 2.45 TP changes, dropping AE back to 50 and SF back to 60. In a no-WAR situation, that would save about 140 TP per 180 seconds, and much more with a WAR. As it stands, if you have a WAR supplying SE, your TP dies even faster because of AE usage.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Just a matter of time before they add a cast bar to ninjutsu.

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Mudras ARE the cast bar of Ninjutsu tho...

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Originally Posted by Craiger

How long do you last on a dummy then? I keep hearing that you have TP issues, but still haven't heard anyone mention how long NIN actually lasts.

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Currently on A4S progression... As an example, on A3S I was having to use Invigorate before he changes into his Hand phase (55 seconds into the fight) so that I could get an extra Invigorate before the Tornado phase. On top of this, the Bard is singing TP song pretty much every 60-90 or so seconds after the Tornado phase, something that is incredibly pathetic. I was also using Invigorate as soon as it was up and I had 540 or less TP. No other DPS class has this kind of severe TP (or MP) issue in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

They could just revert the 2.45 TP changes, dropping AE back to 50 and SF back to 60. In a no-WAR situation, that would save about 140 TP per 180 seconds, and much more with a WAR. As it stands, if you have a WAR supplying SE, your TP dies even faster because of AE usage.

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I would love to see this, even if it means that they're run out of TP slightly slower than most classes. As it stands, they could go the other melee, but then will still have to beg the Bard (incredibly TP-efficient w/ IJ and low skill speed) for Paeon, effectively wasting the Goad. I see no issue in that side of their 'support' functionality making a return, especially if Monk's Chakra casts could be improved to have their dps catch up slightly (say, cast scaling with GCD).

While I agree that ninjas are below in terms of numbers against the other dps I dont think anything has to be numbers and numbers, a raid party is the result of the actions of every member, and every member has to add something to the party, that's why we see clearing groups with the standard, 2 melee, one caster, one ranged, it wouldn't be very viable to have all 4 dps as melee for example. The question is, even if people say that ninjas bring utility, I personally consider that a buff to their numbers is still needed, even more considering that the "utility" can not be exactly amazing and that most fights still requires putting out big numbers.

So even if they resolve the tp issue, I still think that ninjas are below any other dps, not only melee. I hope that the devs see it more clearly after alex savage has been released.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I would love to see this, even if it means that they're run out of TP slightly slower than most classes. As it stands, they could go the other melee, but then will still have to beg the Bard (incredibly TP-efficient w/ IJ and low skill speed) for Paeon, effectively wasting the Goad. I see no issue in that side of their 'support' functionality making a return, especially if Monk's Chakra casts could be improved to have their dps catch up slightly (say, cast scaling with GCD).

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BRD actually isn't 'incredibly TP efficient' if you're playing the job right. Even with low skill speed. Iron Jaws is great, but Empyreal Arrow negates the TP benefits Iron Jaws provides. If you're playing optimally you will barely reach your 2nd invigorate or sometimes not make it with 500 skill speed. Considering BiS BRD builds have over 700 skill speed we face similar issues to NIN.

If rather then just nerf trick attack then make ninja a 3rd rate dps.

To be fair, they aren't really making changes to any job except maybe ast.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

BRD actually isn't 'incredibly TP efficient' if you're playing the job right. Even with low skill speed. Iron Jaws is great, but Empyreal Arrow negates the TP benefits Iron Jaws provides. If you're playing optimally you will barely reach your 2nd invigorate or sometimes not make it with 500 skill speed. Considering BiS BRD builds have over 700 skill speed we face similar issues to NIN.

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I pretty well made the decision to go Ninja over Bard, myself, upon running the BiS calculations for each and seeing how much unavoidable SS there was. I left my Bard with as little SS as possible before swapping, and have sadly come to remember it in that unadulterated, TP-efficient state (at least compared to my other physical dps).

well does bard tp tick yields more than MCH tp tick? or are they both the same? I don't think nin have a tp shortage problem, the responsibility of "refreshner duty" doesn't entirely solely falls under nin, I goad War when i can when my CDs aren't avail; maybe party setup. I do use invig only once most of the time and the rest the brd or mch takes care of it.

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

well does bard tp tick yields more than MCH tp tick? or are they both the same? I don't think nin have a tp shortage problem, the responsibility of "refreshner duty" doesn't entirely solely falls under nin, I goad War when i can when my CDs aren't avail; maybe party setup. I do use invig only once most of the time and the rest the brd or mch takes care of it.

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MCH and BRD refreshes are identical.

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

well does bard tp tick yields more than MCH tp tick? or are they both the same? I don't think nin have a tp shortage problem, the responsibility of "refreshner duty" doesn't entirely solely falls under nin, I goad War when i can when my CDs aren't avail; maybe party setup. I do use invig only once most of the time and the rest the brd or mch takes care of it.

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You shouldn't goad the WAR. WAR is the only tank that does NOT need it. PLD and DRK hurt for TP way more. Unless you're talking A2S, then that's a different story.

Given that NIN is on just about every one of the high end raid groups right now, anyone pining for NIN buffs is bound to be disappointed. Obviously, they're bringing enough to the table that they're wanted, and they tend to only make changes when a class is being sidelined for whatever reason.

Our TP issues are pretty irritating (and I agree that it's really annoying to *need* Paeon since that sort of kills the point of Goad), but that's hardly enough to make people take another DPS over us.

yes I'm talking about A2S and in savage in general regarding TP consumption of nin and tp ticks. other runs besides Savage, nin don't have a problem with TP shortage

I drive the glorious Gobwalker in A2S (which all NINs should, DRG & MNK are much better melee for A2S), but I'm sitting on 100-170ish TP after the first jump in A1S, and I don't remember what it is on the second jump, but something similar. If you somehow died, you'd probably run out of TP very easily even in A1.
A4S same issues, if you don't get targetted by certain mechanics you run out of TP long before the final phase unless you, again, get a lot of TP song. Problem is, healers need a lot of MP as well. It would be nice to see some TP changes for Ninja, else we're just permanently asking for TP song which seems kinda weird.
This will only get worse with more gear (and less latency to some extent for EU players such as myself), as we're barely scratching the new gear and we're already sitting at around 2.04-2.02 GCDs.

The reason that Monks are getting a buff is because both Ninjas and Dragoons, 9/10 have guaranteed raid spots as the 2 melee DPS of the static because they both bring raid utility skills that synergies well with pushing out overall raid DPS. Yes the Ninjas could be better, but at least they're able to get into endgame raiding statics where a ton of Monks are being laid off and fired from statics.

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Originally Posted by Transfinite

The reason that Monks are getting a buff is because both Ninjas and Dragoons, 9/10 have guaranteed raid spots as the 2 melee DPS of the static because they both bring raid utility skills that synergies well with pushing out overall raid DPS. Yes the Ninjas could be better, but at least they're able to get into endgame raiding statics where a ton of Monks are being laid off and fired from statics.

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Just stop posting on the forums please it would be the other way around if Drk didn't give the int down and it was needed to survive ninjas wouldn't be wanted so please go debate with the devs. they're buffing Mnks and most of the ninjas just want QoL adjustment. And no Monks are getting fired from any good statics. If they're in a World first raid they already knew what they were getting into. anything other then a progression group it won't matter monks are not that bad off and they're getting adjusted come tuesday.
Yes monks needed a buff but man you're overstating everything. But really either A they're going to buff monks enough that they overtake Ninja then we have the same problem or B it won't change much and Drg/Nin will still be the way to go
1st Drk took Monks main utlility while doing more damage then paladin. 2nd Drgs are needed because battle litany is god like and disembowel buffs Brd/Mch a lot so really they prob could of made it better by having monks buff mch as much as that sounds stupid.

So overall we're looking at this melee can only be 2 setups
Drg/Mnk
Drg/Nin
The only good way to solve it is to redesign how the utility is for monks but they're choosing a shit way of adjusting them.

Really all of this only matters becasue we're undergeared any setup will eventually be able to clear Savage Alex.

If Monks don't really have any problems, then why would the team choose to also buff this Job in the first place if the Job was working as intended? Ninjas, Bards, Machinists, Black Mages, and Dark Knights are all just as entitled to a Quality of Life buff as Monks.

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Originally Posted by Transfinite

If Monks don't really have any problems, then why would the team choose to also buff this Job in the first place if the Job was working as intended? Ninjas, Bards, Machinists, Black Mages, and Dark Knights are all just as entitled to a Quality of Life buff as Monks.

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Please read again I never said they had no problems but they're sure as hell not as bad off as you say they are. Yes they need adjustments but SE will potentially chose the worst way of doing it for all of melee balance.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Please read again I never said they had no problems but they're sure as hell not as bad off as you say they are. Yes they need adjustments but SE will potentially chose the worst way of doing it for all of melee balance.

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I wouldn't be too worried about that. They've adjusted melee balance twice before (2.1 and sometime after NIN came out, I don't recall the exact patch) and they were always pretty careful about it. The 2.1 changes in particular seemed insane at first (to me anyway) but things ended up settling quite nicely until the addition of NIN, and they settled again with a few changes to DRG and NIN.

I have a fair amount of confidence they'll address things judiciously.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I wouldn't be too worried about that. They've adjusted melee balance twice before (2.1 and sometime after NIN came out, I don't recall the exact patch) and they were always pretty careful about it. The 2.1 changes in particular seemed insane at first (to me anyway) but things ended up settling quite nicely until the addition of NIN, and they settled again with a few changes to DRG and NIN.

I have a fair amount of confidence they'll address things judiciously.

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Oh I'm not worried even if for some reason they did something stupidly broken with monk it will just get changed or they'll buff monk again if they're still not wanted. I'm not in a world first group nor do I pretend to be on the cutting edge. Got sick of that in other mmo's
But buffing GL is honestly the worst way to go about it.

Something tells me that after Tuesday, the Melee static composition may become Drg/Mnk but only if the Monks' overall DPS from the new GL3 buff offsets the total Raid DPS affected by Trick Attack which is highly unlikely and it will most likely be business as usual in savage. We still have a wild card in the form of the newly buffed Astrologians this coming Tuesday which maybe the one to make the Drg/Mnk combination more mainstream.

Do the math Trick attack does not buff raid dps by as much as you ppl think

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Originally Posted by Oboros

Do the math Trick attack does not buff raid dps by as much as you ppl think

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Yet it buffs it enough that the people doing world first progression content use NIN as part of their composition. They provide:

1) Trick Attack
2) Enmity fixing (probably very helpful with DPS opener aggro)
3) Flexibility in handling phase shifts/mechanics (BotD and GL are far more prone to falling off and tanking DRG/MNK DPS)
4) tey r s0 cul u guyz

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Originally Posted by Oboros

Do the math Trick attack does not buff raid dps by as much as you ppl think

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If you do the simple math that 16% uptime on a 10% damage buff is only a 1.6% raid damage increase, you might be right.

You forget that its a 10% damage buff during the entire raid's opening burst (lined up with Battle Litany and everyone's openers), and lines up well with multiple burst cooldowns through out the entire fight (i.e. a BLM's second Raging Strikes/Convert burst at the 3 min mark). Its a much larger DPS increase than it looks like on paper.

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Originally Posted by Sacerdos

If you do the simple math that 16% uptime on a 10% damage buff is only a 1.6% raid damage increase, you might be right.

You forget that its a 10% damage buff during the entire raid's opening burst (lined up with Battle Litany and everyone's openers), and lines up well with multiple burst cooldowns through out the entire fight (i.e. a BLM's second Raging Strikes/Convert burst at the 3 min mark). Its a much larger DPS increase than it looks like on paper.

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Not to mention you can also coordinate it for burst phases, when others will be delaying cooldowns slightly because of fight mechanics and the like. It's definitely significant--if it weren't, NIN wouldn't be as popular as it is in the top echelon of progression groups.

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Originally Posted by Oboros

Do the math Trick attack does not buff raid dps by as much as you ppl think

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Looks like they did the math for you already. It actually raises raid DPS more than most think.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yet it buffs it enough that the people doing world first progression content use NIN as part of their composition. They provide:

1) Trick Attack
2) Enmity fixing (probably very helpful with DPS opener aggro)
3) Flexibility in handling phase shifts/mechanics (BotD and GL are far more prone to falling off and tanking DRG/MNK DPS)
4) tey r s0 cul u guyz

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Love that you brought up enmity fixing- a skill ninja once needed before HW. I was excited when they release this but now to find out, it wasn't even needed. To me, this made it clear what the ninja role was,but confused with the adjustments. Just a waste- could of used another AOE or something than helping others with Argo management.