I was lvling my DPS class in a leveling dungeon (Not Duty Roulette). The tank keep on skipping adds and when i ask him to pull adds he ignore me. So what i did was pull the adds and bring it over to him so that he can take aggro. After the first boss i was kick out of the dungeon. Does this consider abusing vote system? If it is, can i report this players? :mad:
Booted out of leveling dungeon
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08-20-2015, 08:35 PMAskariBooted out of leveling dungeon
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08-20-2015, 08:47 PMVidu
Difficult... its not nice to skip adds if someone needs (and even asks) for the exp - but, as a tank myself (and you, as level 60 warrior should have a bit of understanding for that...) I would say: You are not supposed to pull as a Dps. Never. Serioursly - hoe much exp would you've got from those mobs? 10k? thats one or two fates and really not worth the trouble. The tank decided he didnt want to pull those adds, the rest of the party agreed and they probadly kicked you because of "harrasment". Call me an elitist but I consider this behavior a mild form of harrasment (and, if I'm not totally mistaken, SE does so aswell - if you act conterproductive to what the party agreed on, aka NOT pulling those mobs, it can be considered harrasment).
Both you and the tank acted very egositic - in this case you had to suck it up though... I dont know how you asked him to pull those mobs, I dont know if he was able to understand you (asking in english while tank can only speaking french/german?), I dont know if you've taken the time to take a look at the other partymembers (were they outleveld for the dungeon?), I dont know which dungeon it was - the only thing I know is that you went ahead to do your own thing...and that Dps is not supposed to pull -
08-20-2015, 08:57 PMRamirenIf you're kicked and it's not for being AFK, offline, harassing someone or cheating then it's technically vote kick abuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askari
The question is, will square-enix do anything about it?
No. You'll complain to them, and after a number of automated responses they'll tell you that they can't interfere with internal party politics. Essentially vote kick abuse doesn't exist in their eyes as you need a majority party vote to kick someone, and if the majority wants something, it's somehow intrinsically fair in their eyes.
If members of your party ask you to pull mobs for xp, in a dungeon designed for people to level in, and you refuse, aren't you the one harassing them? You've entered a dungeon and are now limiting their exp gain because you're too lazy to handle a couple of extra minutes of doing your damn job! Tanks are in such short supply at the moment they can get away with not helping their party members out because they know that people are hesitant to kick them due to long wait times for a replacement. If a dps turned around and refused to dps a mob, or a healer refused to heal a pull because they didn't need the xp, they'd be kicked on the spot probably by the dead tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
Also if DPS pulling mobs is harassment, does that give tanks the right to kick them if they pull by accident? How many mobs is considered harassment? Is it harassment if I pull threat off a tank too? How does this apply to bad tanks?
As for the language barrier, the answer is simple, queue in a language you understand. This is one of my main issues with this game, and it happens primarily with French players. Nobody wants to play with them because they've got a rep for being rude and abrasive, as a result they queue in English because nobody queues in French, despite not being able to speak English. The breakdown in communication is their problem, not mine. If I ask that French tank to pull something and he doesn't understand me despite him being queued in English, that's his problem and it certainly does not give him the right to kick me. -
08-20-2015, 09:24 PMSida
Pulling by accident or not can in many cases be fairly easily judged. I have the targeting arrows enabled and I can see if some dps is running behind and just veers a bit close to passed enemies thus being propably accident, vs. running back into a room already skipped and then running out of it group of mobs on their tail. Sure there exists a grey area of when it is intentional or not, but some cases are obvious enough.
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08-20-2015, 09:41 PMSakuraluna
It's differences in play style. Regardless what you felt about the tank skipping pulls, pulling for him is considered rude. Only thing you can really do in a situation like this, is ask nicely if he will pull, if he does then great, if he doesn't then just deal with it till you get out of the dungeon. You only have to run with that person once, you'll likely never see him again. But he isn't obligated to pull everything for you if you ask unfortunately, but you don't need to harass him over it by pulling all those things for him. That could make everyone's job harder in the case that the tank can't handle the load you're trying to set for him. So I wouldn't say that kick was illegit. You're basically fighting minor rudeness with rudeness.
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08-20-2015, 09:54 PMAskari
Some of the details that i miss out, the dungeon was Haukke Manor(Normal), tank was lvl 50 plus probably got in via (Duty Roulette: Leveling) Healer was 40 plus and Drg was 30 plus. I admit it was rude of me to pull the adds instead of the tank but first i would like to say that i ask the tank not to skip any adds in advance and was ignore.
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08-20-2015, 10:19 PMSeryl199The tank isn't not tanking, they just aren't pulling avoidable mobs. The tank being there is the reason that everyone is in the instance and not waiting in queue still, as long as they are moving the group through trash and managing bosses, they are certainly doing their job, even if they skip a few optional mobs. Should the tank have adapted to the group? Ideally, yes, or at least communicated and said something like "I'm in a bit of a hurry, let's skip them please."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiren
I also find it's often better to state your intentions at the beginning of the run, while everyone's attention is usually on the chat box for greetings and such. "Full clear please," or anything similar, gives the tank the idea that you'd enjoy as much XP as possible, but be realistic and don't expect a random to bend over backwards for you. If you don't like that, you can kick them or drop the party, but then you're stuck waiting, gaining no XP when you could have sucked up the loss of maybe 20-30k XP and ran with a hasty tank.
I don't encourage DPS to pull mobs at all, as a healer I always feel stuck in the middle. When you pull mobs, you take damage. If the tank doesn't pick mobs off you, I have to heal you or watch you die. If I heal you, I get 2-3 mobs on my face, then I might die. Or, the tank may not notice, grab another pack, and then we have two or more packs to deal with. If you keep putting the party in compromising positions, I'm not going to stay and keep picking up your messes. I'd rather the tank pulls what he wants to pull, and if you have a problem with that, that's a dispute between you and the tank (see above, don't expect the world from randoms).
As far as the kick itself, I quoted Rami's too true words, kicks are seen by SE as a viable solution to player disputes and differences in playstyle. It lists very specific criteria for kicking a party member, and "Get this adventurer out of my hair because I don't agree with them," is not one of the options. And yet, that's what we are encouraged to use it for. The players technically did nothing wrong by dismissing you, despite improper use of the vote kick.
Anyways, that's my two cents and a nice chunk of text, tanks denying full clears and parties kicking for squabbles is nothing new in the DF. Better luck next time, plenty of tanks are willing to go the extra mile and help you out. Just don't be put off by the one's that don't. -
08-20-2015, 10:24 PMRayneBoemir
That's unfortunate but nothing that can be done. I will only fully clear a dungeon when I see at least 2 players that are not level synched; however, if a player asks nicely I will completely clear the dungeon. They have to ask though otherwise I assume they don't care.
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08-20-2015, 10:25 PMPetiteMalFleurPretty much this. You need to do what the party agrees on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
Vote kick is there to resolve a player conflict of any kind. In this case you wanted to full clear while the rest of the party did not.
You should appreciate groups who are willing to help you level and gain exp but you are not entitled to it. -
08-20-2015, 11:29 PMpushin_tin
100% OP's fault.
By pulling mobs as a role not designed to do so, YOU added to the stress of the dungeon run and could have potentially wiped the party if the tank and healer were not prepared. The tank may have been a PS3/PS4 user with no keyboard, hence the lack of response.
Duty Finder does not entitle you to a full run, nor does it entitle you to a speed run. It entitles you to three other players to run the dungeon with, and how the party goes about the run is a party decision, not the decision of some DPS who wants to pull mobs for the tank. -
08-21-2015, 12:04 AMMXMoondoggie
It's not your job to pull adds no. But the Tank was being pretty selfish considering others needed XP. Interfering with the Tank is a kickable offense so you can only blame yourself for that.
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08-21-2015, 12:11 AMAskari
Thanks for all the comment. After reading all this i concluded that i just have to deal with it if the tank just want to skip the adds. >.>
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08-21-2015, 02:47 AMSaevel
As a tank, I usually check the party levels before we start to see who's there for what reason. I'll also typically cater the run to maximize experience over the shortest duration. Aurum Vale is a perfect example of this: skip the monsters that can be skipped, while allowing the seedlings to germinate.
Dungeon parties are a balancing act. But when someone (anyone) purposefully pulls additional targets, not only does it upset the careful control of the situation (potentially causing deaths), it also messes up the efficiency I'm trying to maintain. Remember what's important here is the your experience rate, per hour and not per kill.
Like it or not, it's part of the tank's job to determine what should be pulled and when, and it's your job to kill those things. Trust that your tank has a plan that is in the best interests of you and your party. If you can't or won't do that, then you should stick to FATEs. -
08-21-2015, 02:54 AMRisvertasashiPlaystyle differences are considered a valid reason to remove a player from a duty. I can dig up the GM posts if you like (but I'd prefer not to...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Askari
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08-21-2015, 05:32 AMAskaRay
Personally when I'm tanking, if someone asks me to get extra mobs I'll go ahead and do it. I know that stress.
But my number one peeve when tanking is people pulling things for me. I know how to pull...don't do it for me thanks. I'm not saying I would've kicked you, but I definitely would've asked you to knock it off...and go from there. -
08-21-2015, 08:06 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Personally as a dps and as a tank, I'd much rather skip avoidable mobs. The tiny chunk of exp they give is nothing compared to defeating the bosses, which is where the real exp gains are. As a dps while leveling, I find its faster to repeat the instance for boss exp instead of staying another 15 minutes for 10k exp.
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08-21-2015, 08:28 AMfm_fenrirGenerally, agreed. As a tank, I don't usually ask because I know most people just want the roulette bonus, so I ignore the side trash and antechambers to get through it quicker. The only dungeon I'll ask about XP for unwanted trash is Aurum Vale, because seedlings are worth 3095XP each and they're embarrassingly easy to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Anyway, as DPS, I don't pull unless the healer/other DPS are about to get patrol aggro by accident (say, handmaidens in Haukke). I'd rather haul the thing over to the tank properly, than watch it chase the healer around because the healer's response to passive aggro is always "run directly away from the tank so he can't grab the mob". -
08-21-2015, 03:17 PMGalgarion
If someone asks the tank to get everything, I think they should be obliged (As long as everyone's being polite, of course.) I think the issue here is that the OP was there for XP, and the tank was there for his daily.
When I tank, the first thing I do is ready check and say "Click ready if you want a full clear, click not ready if you want a speed run, my vote doesn't count." Then, I let the three of them vote so there aren't any ties. No fuss, no muss, we make an early decision and then get our business done like dignified adults pretending to be Knights and wizards. -
08-21-2015, 03:38 PMBokuhn
Dick move by party if they did not attempt to communicate in any way. . Part of the FFXIV community are douchebags, my best advice is just to continue playing the game to your enjoyment, ignore the negative events/comments and learn not to be like the trash you encounter.
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08-21-2015, 07:15 PMSida
As a healer, if I see dmg pulling, I first ask if he and the tank are premade. I mean, some people might just swing that way and they are used to do it in such manner. More usual in higher level content where you can queue with friends to roulette. But if tank is not ok with the dmg pulling, I won't heal a dmg who wants to be eaten.
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08-21-2015, 11:48 PMMXMoondoggieThis annoys me no end there are Healers at high levels who do this too. I remember in stuff like ST and WoD when a WHM pulls adds and they start running around followed by an OT trying to peel it I'm just like "OMFG STOP RUNNING YOU HAVE HOLY" There are two very easy get out clauses WHM's have for adds fluid aura which scoots it away and binds it leaving it alone for a peel or just stand still and use holy stunning it and letting the OT come to you. Running around like an idiot is the worst thing you can do in that situation it's like people panic. If it's the MT only then sure just run to them because if they come to you they will bring all their friends with them facing you. Or if you are WHM then fluid aura in the direction of the MT works just fine for me unless it's a really dumb Tank who doesn't even know they lost aggro on something.Quote:
Originally Posted by fm_fenrir
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08-22-2015, 06:08 AMVickii
Honestly, i'd vote to kick you. I don't think it's an abuse of the system. You are dps and you pull adds that only you want. This risks a wipe and bothers the other players who just want to get their daily roulette done.
What you should do in this situation is either quit and find a group to run it with. Or stick it out then queue up again and hope for more co-operative party.