BLM vs. SMN

Which is better for magical DPS and why?

BLM cause Fireballs are the truth.

#BOOM

One has to use its brain and deal with things

The other pretends to have to use its brain and mashes death flare.

#thesaltisreal


Anyway they are both good, in a perfect world blm for single target burst and high sustain

Smn would be aoe king with decent sustain damage

Smn sustain in a raid environment is generally easier to keep up and can at times surpass blm due to double dotting.

Smn gets screwed less due to mechanics, moving is nowhere near as punishing and we dont lose 50% of our dps if rng/ team members decides to screw you over with raid mechanics when your swift us used up. Worst possible thingy happen is dropping dots but our "swift" is up every 60 seconds or we might have to death flare a little earlier than usual.

Blm has best burst phase hands down when done right its 5-8k every 2.8 seconds 6 times at the start of most fights, they can do amazing damage but requires alot of fight exp and luck to move as little as possible and when to (not) use buffs and refreshes.

SMN has the AoE advantage (best in game) and does great in situations where there's forced mobility you can't necessarily plan for - it's nearly impossible to catch a SMN with his pants down, at worst a DoT is delayed slightly. Also does great in fights with multi-DoTs/some AoE. Good utility with 2m E4E, Supervirus, Res (arguably the weakest of these 3 utility tools). Better LB user.

BLM has the ST advantage by far, the biggest advantage it has and basically the most important difference between them. Apoc and Manaward/wall are nice, arguably up there with 2m E4E and Supervirus in usefulness. Mobility and fight RNG are unkind to 3.0 BLM more than in the past but its supreme numbers when things are going right usually even it out with SMN's slightly lower, more consistent numbers.

Play whichever you want, both are in a great spot for all current content. Could argue either is better in any specific Savage floor (except A2S, can't deny anything about which is superior there), with good points for both sides.

I have both BLM and SMN at lvl 60 i184 and I prefer playing as BLM even though people have so many negative things to say about this class. Both classes are good but I feel like my BLM is more fun to play. I know people complain about the Enochian and Astral Fire timers but I rarely have a hard time keeping them up you just have to know the fight. BLM is just not as simple as it was before 3.0 and requires more skill to play effectively.

These are only things that matter imo.

BLM
- Do not need "build" their damage as much as smn and good for killing small hp targets
- Better singletarget dps

SMN
- Do not lose dps that much as blm while moving or while in cc or limit break
- Better aoe dps

I don't think either class is good, and i guess if you didn't play ffxi you wouldn't understand but... Summons in FFXI WERE WAAAAY BETTER AND BIGGER LOL. And blm forget about it... Blm was the bomb, blm burns and the dmg one spell could do was thousands, I think they fucked up on both classes, dots for summoner? Only fire does damage and blizzard gains mp and thunder does a dot LOL!!!! What happened to those classes? Personally {and i know most ppl in this game dont agree and i think thats weird} but i dont think these classes are even worth my time.... Whats exciting about small summons? In FFXI AND FFXV summons are huge. And blm they ruined compared to XI. You could practically solo On blm on XI but i guess that's why they made pussy blm in this game so nobody could solo. In FFXI i had every job to lvl 99 and i guess my favorite job out of them all was summoner but in this game i honestly dont have a favorite and what really pissed me off is when i lvled sch to 50 it said i already had summoner to lvl 50 and i didnt know anything about that job, whats up with that?

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Originally Posted by Snolily

You could practically solo On blm on XI but i guess that's why they made pussy blm in this game so nobody could solo.

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BLM has infinite MP and huge damage burst, they can also pretty much solo many contents, you don't even have lv 50+ BLM...

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Originally Posted by Snolily

I already had summoner to lvl 50 and i didnt know anything about that job, whats up with that?

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Because SMN is from ARC.
You haven't even played a SMN, how did you even know the SMN is bad...

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

BLM has infinite MP and huge damage burst, they can also pretty much solo many contents, you don't even have lv 50+ BLM...


Because SMN is from ARC.
You haven't even played a SMN, how did you even know the SMN is bad...

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Since when could BLM (or any other class) solo any content worth doing?

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Could argue either is better in any specific Savage floor (except A2S, can't deny anything about which is superior there), with good points for both sides.

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Pretty sure a1s better for SMN, better dps potential, easier kiting of adds.

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Originally Posted by Snolily

????

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What in the name the twelve has this got to do with godsdamn anything? They wonder why people on this forum consider ffxi a dirty word when it's proponents will awkwardly insert it into the conversation, no matter how ill fitting.

The op was asking about the pros and cons of BLM and SMN of FFXIV. He's not asking wether you think the FFXIV or ffxi versions are superior.

Like others have mentioned smn has the aoe advantage and blm Single target. Generally a few floors of Alex summoner will do better, but blm can do very well in both EX Primals.
I have not levelled my smn to 60 yet so cannot comment on/if it be way easier then blm.
Blm now you really could not mess up when it comes to say enochian as your dps drops by a fair amount however enochian up keep is not as hard as some may think if you practice :)
Some mechanics do really mess you up though, haha

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Pretty sure a1s better for SMN, better dps potential, easier kiting of adds.

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Eh, smn will do better on a parse because of double dotting, but blm will do better in p1. Since every hit in p1 is essentially 2 hits, that's relevant to consider. Kiting the adds isn't a big deal if you position yourself well in advance.

They're pretty interchangeable on a1s tbh. a3s they both shine on different phases, so pretty interchangeable there depending on what your group has more trouble with. a2s is the only one where smn is handsdown better, but if you're really forming an ideal a2s group you'll want both.

Casters are more balanced atm than the forums would have people believe :P

Havent played a 50+ BLM myself yet but me and my husband generally run in this combination. SMN like several other classes should reorganize their rotations and their responsibility in partyplay. Before HW your "main dmg" was just using the enkidle of your pet, nowadays you got other opportunities than just holding your dots up. Bahamuts Stance, Ruin lll and Death Flare are indeed skills to deal real dmg without focusing on your pet only. On the other hand i see much summoners who lack in using DoTs since HW - just focusing at their new dmg skills. Personally i like the mix of both for my own playstyle.

BLM 50+ is, if ur movement and reflexes are good, just boom boom BOOOOM. If i would be TC i wouldnt chose class on the dmg output but on the playstyle the classes are based on. Would u like building up DoTs and focusing your dmg-skills in compressed 15s go for SMN - if you wanna focusing just on dmg-skills and switching between 2 skill-types go for BLM :)

just my personal opinion =)

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Eh, smn will do better on a parse because of double dotting, but blm will do better in p1. Since every hit in p1 is essentially 2 hits, that's relevant to consider. Kiting the adds isn't a big deal if you position yourself well in advance.

They're pretty interchangeable on a1s tbh. a3s they both shine on different phases, so pretty interchangeable there depending on what your group has more trouble with. a2s is the only one where smn is handsdown better, but if you're really forming an ideal a2s group you'll want both.

Casters are more balanced atm than the forums would have people believe :P

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Exactly. As we gear up BLM will undeniably be better in A1S due to the double strength hits pre-split, but for now it's very back and forth, advantage here and advantage there.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Eh, smn will do better on a parse because of double dotting, but blm will do better in p1. Since every hit in p1 is essentially 2 hits, that's relevant to consider. Kiting the adds isn't a big deal if you position yourself well in advance.

They're pretty interchangeable on a1s tbh. a3s they both shine on different phases, so pretty interchangeable there depending on what your group has more trouble with. a2s is the only one where smn is handsdown better, but if you're really forming an ideal a2s group you'll want both.

Casters are more balanced atm than the forums would have people believe :P

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You have a point, but a SMN can easily solo the first 2 adds, with very little dps lost on the boss itself, leaving the rest of the party to single target the boss. I would imagine this would atleast make up for the difference in single target burst diffirence, SMN burst is not exactly weak.

When you consider the SMN's better party utility, for me it's an easy choice between the 2 classes on that turn.

I am not saying BLM dps is bad or that BLM is weak for a1s, but do think SMN is more use to a party.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

You have a point, but a SMN can easily solo the first 2 adds, with very little dps lost on the boss itself, leaving the rest of the party to single target the boss. I would imagine this would atleast make up for the difference in single target burst diffirence, SMN burst is not exactly weak.

When you consider the SMN's better party utility, for me it's an easy choice between the 2 classes on that turn.

I am not saying BLM dps is bad or that BLM is weak for a1s, but do think SMN is more use to a party.

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Healers can solo the first adds. Regardless of your caster that's better for group dps. Smn doing it is just parse fluff. Supervirus and apoca can both help for the tank buster. Extra res is good, but a death is probably a wipe in learning progression anyways, and sch has enough extra mp in that fight (even dpsing) that the res isn't a huge deal.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

You have a point, but a SMN can easily solo the first 2 adds, with very little dps lost on the boss itself, leaving the rest of the party to single target the boss. I would imagine this would atleast make up for the difference in single target burst diffirence, SMN burst is not exactly weak.

When you consider the SMN's better party utility, for me it's an easy choice between the 2 classes on that turn.

I am not saying BLM dps is bad or that BLM is weak for a1s, but do think SMN is more use to a party.

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I look at it as ... SMN is more consistent and easier post-split, and thus if you spend a lot of time in that phase SMN will prevail. BLM will prevail if you get help or have more of the fight's % pre-split.

Personally my group is only a couple % from skipping jump 2. If I was BLM we'd have skipped it already, but, gear being what it is, I'm SMN for now. Maybe next week.

While BLM may have it's place in a Speed kill setup, for the majority of party's I'm pretty sure SMN will make things easier.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Smn would be aoe king with decent sustain damage

Smn sustain in a raid environment is generally easier to keep up and can at times surpass blm due to double dotting.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

SMN has the AoE advantage (best in game)

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Hi All / Dev Team,

What Psyco and Sleigh are saying...

3.0 launched, and Yoshi P made such a *major* change to Black Mage (from AOE King to "Not So Good AOE"), and it seems like there hasn't been much chatter about it from the community.

Back in the 2.0 era, Yoshi P even said that the Black Mage AOE strength was one of the reasons why it was balanced the way it was (that its AOE was a key characteristic of BLM), yet now in 3.0, he just makes Summoner the AOE King? :confused:

Seems like a bad tradeoff.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Back in the 2.0 era, Yoshi P even said that the Black Mage AOE strength was one of the reasons why it was balanced the way it was (that its AOE was a key characteristic of BLM), yet now in 3.0, he just makes Summoner the AOE King? :confused:

Seems like a bad tradeoff.

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BLM is better single target dps and pretty decent aoe

SMN is better aoe dps and pretty decent single target

This is a thing known as balance. I know it's a tough concept and it hurts so bad trying to comprehend that. Please don't work too hard.

It honestly doesn't matter. They are both great. Play them both or play neither, but quit complaining about it. It's so old.

I think what they mean is, pre HW BLM was AoE king, SMN was better with single target. Now it is the other way around. (I think)

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Originally Posted by Deifact

I think what they mean is, pre HW BLM was AoE king, SMN was better with single target. Now it is the other way around. (I think)

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I don't think that's the scenario. Pre HW SMN did not have the tools to perform high single target dps for the most part, at least not compared to BLM.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I don't think that's the scenario. Pre HW SMN did not have the tools to perform high single target dps for the most part, at least not compared to BLM.

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For most of 2.x SMN was superiour or at least equal to BLM.

SMN did kinda suck during FCoB though.

Summoner was pretty much AoE BLM in the FF games of yore, so it makes more sense for it to be this way I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi All / Dev Team,

What Psyco and Sleigh are saying...

3.0 launched, and Yoshi P made such a *major* change to Black Mage (from AOE King to "Not So Good AOE"), and it seems like there hasn't been much chatter about it from the community.

Back in the 2.0 era, Yoshi P even said that the Black Mage AOE strength was one of the reasons why it was balanced the way it was (that its AOE was a key characteristic of BLM), yet now in 3.0, he just makes Summoner the AOE King? :confused:

Seems like a bad tradeoff.

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Okay, this is actually a pretty big deal for caster balance in the past. Rant incoming.

Ever since they buffed melee in 2.1 (and even further as we went along in varying patches), the caster role has been about good ST but more importantly, being ranged and having tremendous AoE and multi-DoT opportunities. You could pretty much look at caster in a specific fight and you could say, T10 adds are why you bring a caster. T9 golems and wyvern are why you bring a SMN. T6, the bees and slugs are why you bring a caster. Etc. It was always about having some AoE involved in their DPS, or some other magically inclined reason to bring caster, otherwise you'd stack melee.

Flash foward to 3.0. Suddenly, BLM's DPS is MNK level. Makes sense TBH, it's a low utility nuke class, all it's good for is shooting fireballs for the most part. It is probably the highest in the game when Foe's is involved, at least when it gets to stand still. Okay, well that solves the "AoE must be relevant or don't bring a caster" dilemma from a balance standpoint, but then you have to have that give and take with the AoE - it wouldn't make sense for BLM AoE to be near top tier with that much single target DPS, so they canned it. I agree with that decision at this point in time; I definitely didn't understand it as I was leveling BLM and then leveling SMN, but now that I'm at endgame I get it.

Where does this leave SMN?

Well, it shouldn't beat BLM in single target. I mean, DoT classes, sure, they traditionally are higher sustained DPS to make up for their damage type which is an inherent weakness on a single target, but BLM has a lot of weaknesses to sustain that turret it can bring. So, they can't really make SMN compete head to head with BLM, it'd unbalance it pretty well all considering - that's why SMN has every other advantage. Multi-DoTs, AoE, utility, consistency, it's all there, because in a game like FFXIV, ST damage (or more accurately, your contribution to a raid's ST DPS) is king, the most important thing, why the best comp has 2 melee 1 ranged 1 caster almost every time. You don't mess around with ST damage, and one of the two casters is gonna have that advantage. So basically, they had to give SMN this amazing, easily used, cheap AoE to keep it relevant in raids, unless they chose to bring BLM DPS in line with SMN (not good!). Look at Pepsiman Savage ... if you could not multi-DoT and AoE for about 2 minutes of the fight minus the useless add phase, very nicely I might add, you flat out would never take a SMN over a BLM from an efficiency standpoint. Every turn so far is like this, they're throwing SMN a bone with A1, A2, and A3, and it's the thing that's keeping SMN competitive. A2 it might be a little over the top, but still, it's good balance in my book.

tl;dr - the shift to SMN AoE dominance is genius in my book, because it's a good way to keep a lower damage class type competitive vs its higher damage brother in all content. It lets them make BLM any vision they want, since it was locked in a mid-level damage turret with great AoE before and as long as that AoE was there, nothing could be changed.

Simple the difference is between BLM and SMN is party composition if you have a Dragoon go with Black Mage as the caster if you have a Monk go with Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Simple the difference is between BLM and SMN is party composition if you have a Dragoon go with Black Mage as the caster if you have a Monk go with Summoner.

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Can I ask why this particular combinations? (genuinely curious)
I thought you'd bring a dragoon with a summoner to help with bursts more since smn burst is slightly weaker.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Ever since they buffed melee in 2.1 (and even further as we went along in varying patches), the caster role has been about good ST but more importantly, being ranged and having tremendous AoE and multi-DoT opportunities. You could pretty much look at caster in a specific fight and you could say, T10 adds are why you bring a caster. T9 golems and wyvern are why you bring a SMN. T6, the bees and slugs are why you bring a caster. Etc. It was always about having some AoE involved in their DPS, or some other magically inclined reason to bring caster, otherwise you'd stack melee.

Flash foward to 3.0. Suddenly, BLM's DPS is MNK level. Makes sense TBH, it's a low utility nuke class, all it's good for is shooting fireballs for the most part. It is probably the highest in the game when Foe's is involved, at least when it gets to stand still. Okay, well that solves the "AoE must be relevant or don't bring a caster" dilemma from a balance standpoint, but then you have to have that give and take with the AoE - it wouldn't make sense for BLM AoE to be near top tier with that much single target DPS, so they canned it. I agree with that decision at this point in time; I definitely didn't understand it as I was leveling BLM and then leveling SMN, but now that I'm at endgame I get it.

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Thanks Sleigh. Great post. Thanks for the thoughts on SMN vs. BLM especially in Savage.

Your thoughts on how it was in 2.0 was why I was confused up till now, wondering why BLM lost its AOE King edge in 3.0. But your post clarifies that. Thanks.

I hope BLM remains stronger Single Target then.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Simple the difference is between BLM and SMN is party composition if you have a Dragoon go with Black Mage as the caster if you have a Monk go with Summoner.

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umm... what? what synergy is there with a mnk and summoner. Thats kinda the big issue with MNK right now is they dont bring anything to the party if theres a DRK (drg = crit, nin = trick atk)

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Flash foward to 3.0. Suddenly, BLM's DPS is MNK level. Makes sense TBH, it's a low utility nuke class, all it's good for is shooting fireballs for the most part.

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That'll change soon, MNK getting buffs so Caster will be back to it's 2.1-onwards role. :/

Monks boost only summoners auto attacks right now. Before it boost ifrits damage as well, but now ifrit is magical dps. Now monks are only superior for aoe damage compared other melees. I have seen monks can do 1700+ dps in A2S that is pretty nice for melee dps.

if monks get too much of a buff i'll get my picket fence and protest signs ready. Off to crusade...

ive clearead a1s and a2s as both smn and blm and ive spent plenty of time in a3s as both

for a1s, blm can have a smoother adds mechanic since they can kill their adds before resin bombs are even cast and return to dps'ing the boss

we run two casters so i prefer to have one of each. i've switched from smn to blm but if we only ran one caster i would prefer to have a summoner on the team.

that being said, i believe that blm has a higher dps ceiling.