is AST a better substitute for WHM or SCH?

if you HAVE to bring an AST to current raid, which one would you drop assuming equal ilvl/skill level?

the AST...? c.c,,

no, for real: WHM + AST is a much better combo than SCH + AST

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

if you HAVE to bring an AST to current raid, which one would you drop assuming equal ilvl/skill level?

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I would imagine that there is a bigger potential for high raid dps pairing Ast with Sch. If the Ast is good, he can carry bulk of healing and have SCH dps and go back to (emergency)healing and popping cds when things get away from the Ast before going back to dps.. If paired with a Whm then I would assume the Ast would take on the role of a Sch and DPS, but it isn't as efficient or even as high as a Sch so.. IMO Ast+Sch If you need dmg and Ast+Sch if you really need the heals for progression.

SCH is really powerful ATM so I would recommend AST + SCH.

That being said, if true unadulterated raw heals is required, AST + WHM is the way to go for Medica II + Aspected Helios stacking for raid damage.

I'll go with AST/SCH as well. A Diurnal AST has sufficient power to fill the WHM's base healing duty, while the SCH has the bulk of the DPS and the emergency utility covered.

AST/WHM feels similar to WHM/WHM in that it's doable, but not the best synergy. AST doesn't bring much of anything that WHM can't do (let's not discuss the current somewhat sad state of the card system...), unless perhaps you go Noct and function basically as a fairy-less SCH without its wealth of emergency CDs. With AST/SCH, at least a Diurnal AST can provide the sort of easy, constant HoT application and on-demand Medica-style healing that a WHM would contribute to compliment the SCH's style.

You need the mind bonus whm gives. Since it boosts both healing and healer dps.

If you had to replace one it would be the sch. But your better off with whm+sch wombo combo any day.

I prefer WHM + AST than AST + SCH.

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Originally Posted by o3o

But your better off with whm+sch wombo combo any day.

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This is the 3rd or 4th time I've heard whm + sch as a "wombo combo". That's not what a wombo combo is lol. Not unless they are actually syncing up spells to perform some type of combo.

Whilst losing the mnd bonus is a bit of a hit, AST/SCH is still the more flexible and forgiving comp for savage imo. WHM and AST are too alike at this level and critically, both are hamstrung by MP. Switching out the WHM for a SCH opens up more DPS possibilities, brings a substantial amount of free healing along and offers more of a chance to recover from mistakes and deaths.

Alex Savage is more about sustaining moderate to high HPS over a long period rather than than the sheer burst that WHM excels at. AST/WHM just doesn't really bring any benefits along and certainly won't do your bard any favours.

As said, WHM/SCH is still the main combo to have and I can't see that changing unless AST gets a fair few more substantial tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've heard whm + sch as a "wombo combo". That's not what a wombo combo is lol. Not unless they are actually syncing up spells to perform some type of combo.

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WHM+SCH wombo combo?

Emergency tactics - Succor - Indomitability + Medica II - Assize.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

WHM+SCH wombo combo?

Emergency tactics - Succor - Indomitability + Medica II - Assize.

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A wombo combo is a combination of skills/attacks/spells/whatever that directly play off of each other for greater effect. What you're describing is just simply using skills. That would be akin to saying a nin using Aeolian Edge and a drg using Full Thrust is a wombo combo, but it's not. A good example of a wombo combo would be FFXI skillchains/MB's. FFXIV doesn't really actually have any that I can think of, as even a nin using TA and a drg using FT while TA is up still isn't one. Since really it's just using skills while a debuff is up. Typically wombo combos are found in fighting games that involve 2vX's or more. SSB, where the term was coined, and mobas are good examples of where you would see them often.

Anyway, that's enough derailing from me lol.

As an Astrologian myself, I prefer to be paired with White Mage.

I feel like AST + SCH is better, but that's only my opinion. In general i would want to be using diurnal with SCH, and nocturnal with WHM. With SCH everything is fine cos i use diurnal, with WHM when I use diurnal i just can't stand that massive overhealing from medica + asp. helios, and i can't stand overhealing in general.. like AoE attack, health drops to 70%, we are both casting medica 2 + asp. helios, health is back up at 90%, and then some people still throw medica 1 on top of it, when you literally know that that massive regen is gonna top it off in like 5 seconds.. I can't stand that lol. That's why im using nocturnal more and more often once i get paired with WHM.
With WHM partner i found nocturnal also better in ravana ex, when some people run on fire, i can save them easily with a shield or two while we are running around, or save squishy people from double purple circles. Plus no irritation from overhealing.

It depends on what you are healing and what your DPS are like (in a static).

If your DPS are playing at their best and not hitting enrage you can go AST/WHM no problems
If your DPS are not playing at their best and hitting enrage you probably need to go AST/SCH so SCH can pop out some DPS.

If you are healing an AOE intensive fight you'll probably feel more comfortable going double hot healers (WHM/AST)
If you are healing a low HPS fight you'll probably feel more comfortable going AST/SCH

Each fight is so situational that there is no "better" combo but a more "comfortable" combo. That goes for WHM/SCH combos too. Back in 2.0 there were fights early on that I felt were just more comfortable with 2 WHMs or 2 SCHs. As a result it's difficult to say AST is a specific substitute for x class (at this point in time)

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Originally Posted by o3o

You need the mind bonus whm gives. Since it boosts both healing and healer dps.

If you had to replace one it would be the sch. But your better off with whm+sch wombo combo any day.

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Please leave derailing at the door. Question was about pairing with astro and not bashing a job that worksjust as well.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

SCH is really powerful ATM so I would recommend AST + SCH.

That being said, if true unadulterated raw heals is required, AST + WHM is the way to go for Medica II + Aspected Helios stacking for raid damage.

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I think maybe a lot of SCHs are used to maximizing DPS... but one that focuses on heals really can be very effective and is something to see. On the other hand, stacks and CD timers do limit them, but there's little that a succor beforehand and indomitability afterwards won't handle... and there's whispering dawn if even more raid healing is needed.

Honestly all 3 healers have adequate basic healing tools for all situations (even if you consider AST's lack of good healing CDs). AST/WHM is healing overkill in much the way that WHM/WHM can be. If you have two healers, it's rare that both really need to handle raid healing at the same time, and if you pair AST with SCH, the party gains instant-cast Indom on the 30 sec CD and free, independent GCD healing from the fairy to salvage missteps or simply to add a margin of safety.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think maybe a lot of SCHs are used to maximizing DPS... but one that focuses on heals really can be very effective and is something to see. On the other hand, stacks and CD timers do limit them, but there's little that a succor beforehand and indomitability afterwards won't handle... and there's whispering dawn if even more raid healing is needed.

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I agree, the raw healing output a SCH can burst for the raid with their given tools is insane. Unfortunately, that burst is usually restricted to once every 30 seconds and the cost of resources is very heavy in my mind compared to how a WHM can do it (one Medica II versus a Succor + opportunity cost for Aetherflow stack of Indomitability for equivalent healing)

In my personal opinion, the SCH toolkit is much too powerful for the amount of options they bring to the table but that's another discussion entirely.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think maybe a lot of SCHs are used to maximizing DPS... but one that focuses on heals really can be very effective and is something to see. On the other hand, stacks and CD timers do limit them, but there's little that a succor beforehand and indomitability afterwards won't handle... and there's whispering dawn if even more raid healing is needed.

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Trust me, if you're a SCH in savage with an AST you need to be good at healing. You pretty much have the entire raid in your hands since AST throughput is limited and their emergency heals are weak.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Please leave derailing at the door. Question was about pairing with astro and not bashing a job that worksjust as well.

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only you would think that was derailing, its on the subject topic and its not derailing

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Please leave derailing at the door. Question was about pairing with astro and not bashing a job that worksjust as well.

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That really isn't derailing and the very fact you think it works "just as well" when they are no where near the same, further makes you look silly. Do you even try anymore?

With that out of the way.

I would WHM+AST Combo. unless you're in a fight that needs heavy mitigation, it's hard to choose. The MND bonus is pretty helpful to AST since they need all the help they can get. Not really sure why AST has PIE bonus anyway. But i guess they had to choose one of them.

This,

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

That really isn't derailing and the very fact you think it works "just as well" when they are no where near the same, further makes you look silly. Do you even try anymore?

With that out of the way.

I would WHM+AST Combo. unless you're in a fight that needs heavy mitigation, it's hard to choose. The MND bonus is pretty helpful to AST since they need all the help they can get. Not really sure why AST has PIE bonus anyway. But i guess they had to choose one of them.

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and this,

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Originally Posted by Pentt

Trust me, if you're a SCH in savage with an AST you need to be good at healing. You pretty much have the entire raid in your hands since AST throughput is limited and their emergency heals are weak.

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Really sums it up.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

. . . . at least a Diurnal AST can provide the sort of easy, constant HoT application and on-demand Medica-style healing that a WHM would contribute to compliment the SCH's style.

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While it does compliment the SCH's inability(with Selene) or limited(With Eos) ability to provide regens, there is just two problems Diurnal has.

1) It does not affect Essential Dignity like Nocturnal does.

2) All of the AST's regens are laughably weak. So weak to the point it makes you think you never applied them in the first place, or at least you'll be healing like you never applied the regens. You need barriers to make them at all effective.

Also it's not fair that they stack with WHM regens, while the barriers don't.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

2) All of the AST's regens are laughably weak. So weak to the point it makes you think you never applied them in the first place, or at least you'll be healing like you never applied the regens. You need barriers to make them at all effective.

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its not really true, medica 2 ticks for 50, asp. helios also ticks for 50. though medica2 heals for 200 instantly, while asp. helios 140.
regen is 150, asp. benefic is 100, but asp. benefic instantly heals for 190 before starting to tick, which is still eventually weaker but not laughably :)
though it is weaker in general because of no divine seal and presence of mind, but it's not that very horribly weaker.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

While it does compliment the SCH's inability(with Selene) or limited(With Eos) ability to provide regens, there is just two problems Diurnal has.

1) It does not affect Essential Dignity like Nocturnal does.

2) All of the AST's regens are laughably weak. So weak to the point it makes you think you never applied them in the first place, or at least you'll be healing like you never applied the regens. You need barriers to make them at all effective.

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The 5% healing potency buff from Nocturnal doesn't make or break anything. It's true that Diurnal's 5% attack speed buff does nothing for abilities like Essential Dignity, but we would only care about these differences if both Sects were on roughly equal footing otherwise, which they unfortunately aren't.

AST regens are fine. The only way they really lose is if you compare the HoT from A. Benefic directly to the WHM spell Regen, as Akyio notes. We're still talking about a lot of additional healing potency over time, however. Discounting AST HoTs would be a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Akyio

regen is 150, asp. benefic is 100, but asp. benefic instantly heals for 190 before starting to tick, which is still eventually weaker but not laughably :)

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Just to add to this, Diurnal Aspected Benefic total potency is 790 which is about 12.3% weaker than Regen's 900 potency within the same number of ticks. As others earlier have mentioned, it's a noticeable difference but not game breaking.

What drives Diurnal Aspected Benefic desirability down is how MP inefficient it is compared to Regen but it's a tool in the Diurnal AST toolkit that assists with their output and should be maintained 100% of the time. In my mind, Diurnal Aspected Benefic is also the one spell that drives the nail in the coffin for Nocturnal AST because this allows for more thoughtput at less MP cost overall.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

1) It does not affect Essential Dignity like Nocturnal does.

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Essential Dignity is not affected by either Sect. The potency boost on Nocturnal Sect applies to healing magic; Essential Dignity is not magic but an Ability.

This is pretty easy to verify by cross-classing Cure (400 potency, magic) and comparing its power to Essential Dignity in either sect. In Diurnal, Cure will be identical, but in Nocturnal, Cure will be noticably stronger than ED.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Essential Dignity is not affected by either Sect. The potency boost on Nocturnal Sect applies to healing magic; Essential Dignity is not magic but an Ability.

This is pretty easy to verify by cross-classing Cure (400 potency, magic) and comparing its power to Essential Dignity in either sect. In Diurnal, Cure will be identical, but in Nocturnal, Cure will be noticably stronger than ED.

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Good point on ED being a "spell" vs. an "ability". So even that tiny, tiny bone is off the table.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

AST regens are fine. The only way they really lose is if you compare the HoT from A. Benefic directly to the WHM spell Regen, as Akyio notes. We're still talking about a lot of additional healing potency over time, however. Discounting AST HoTs would be a mistake.

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I didn't say don't do it. I'm just sayin it's weak.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Essential Dignity is not affected by either Sect. The potency boost on Nocturnal Sect applies to healing magic; Essential Dignity is not magic but an Ability.

This is pretty easy to verify by cross-classing Cure (400 potency, magic) and comparing its power to Essential Dignity in either sect. In Diurnal, Cure will be identical, but in Nocturnal, Cure will be noticably stronger than ED.

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Easy Mistake. lol