A self-heal for DRK?

Just curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

Do you think it would be fair if DRK was given a self-heal like Equilibrium or Clemency, and if so how do you think it should work?

We already have Souleater and Last Survivor for self-healing.

Abyssal drain too but doesn't help it takes over 2k mp with dark arts.

DA+Souleater & DA+Abyssal work well for me. I wouldn't be against unbuffed Carve & Spit having a heal similar to Equilibrium though. I don't think we particularly need it, but would help to make it more viable since the mp boost is pretty weak on it's own.

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Originally Posted by rjspencer4

We already have Souleater and Last Survivor for self-healing.

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True, but WAR has self-heals from attacks and Mercy Stroke too, but also has Equilibrium.

P.S. I am not saying that DRK needs such a thing, just curious as to general thoughts and feelings on the subject and figured I'd start a simple discussion.

Drk should have a 1200 potency self heal.

It's dumb that they don't. In self healing, burst heals are what matter. As for Souleater HP returns, you aren't going to see very high HP returns at all unless you're in full slaying and are outside of Grit (Which wont be returning HP anyway), and can Dark Arts.

It'd be completely fair for them to have one, War has multiple ways to heal themselves too without Equilibrium. Yet they still have Equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Disc

DA+Souleater & DA+Abyssal work well for me. I wouldn't be against unbuffed Carve & Spit having a heal similar to Equilibrium though. I don't think we particularly need it, but would help to make it more viable since the mp boost is pretty weak on it's own.

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Neither Pld nor War needed those 1200 Potency Self Heals. Yet they still got it. I don't get why they'd leave Drk without it.

I'd be fine with them just buffing Souleater to have extra health return similar to how Inner Beast worked circa 2.0 WAR.
As of right now, Inner Beast on 3.0 WAR heals more and gives 20% mitigation for 6 seconds, and it's not like Souleater can be used much more frequently than Inner Beast to justify this disparity.

I feel that DRK self healing is suppose to make up for their lack of physical mitigation, but it's really not there. Instead of just giving them a big burst heal alone it would be nice for them to add healing effects to other abilities, like have Shadow Wall have some sort of regen effect.

I'm personnally against such a heal, as a dark knight should always be about drain from the ennemy and not self abilities.

The problem is that dark arts is way too expensive to be efficient. It's simply not worth it :

Souleater : potency of 260 without dark arts, 400 with it. would you use all that MP for a 140 potency strike+heal ? I don't
Dark Passenger : Dark arts is mostly here for the 15s blind ... which most ennemies resist.
Dark Mind : the 15% extra magic resist could be useful, very situationnal though.
Abyssal Drain : Yes, the heal is good if you get at least 4 or 5 ennemies around, but again, not that much (you should have 10 mobs around to get the heal equivalent to Equilibrium)
Carve and Spit : 450 potency is great on paper. But we are tanks.

That's the whole dark arts mechanic that needs to be changed. Either by halving its cost to be able to use it more often, or by changing its effects so that you actually want to use it.

I use dark arts all the time. Modified dark mind is a god send for magic tank busters. Dark arts soul eater and carve are awesome for dps burst. Dark passenger I almost never modify honestly.

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Originally Posted by Thorsparkle

I'm personnally against such a heal, as a dark knight should always be about drain from the ennemy and not self abilities.

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Well, technically the heal on SE is a self-heal as would any "drain" ability as they are not being healed by the actions of someone else but there own.

However, having such a heal attached to an attack would differentiate it from Equibrium or Clemency and would fit the DRK motiff.

Oh look, yet another thread that can be boiled down to "I want what he has it's not fair!"

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Oh look, yet another thread that can be boiled down to "I want what he has it's not fair!"

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Considering the OP was asking whether DRK having a self heal equivalent to Equilibrium/Clemency would be fair or not, that just isn't the case.
This thread is open for discussion, but you don't seem willing to offer any.

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Originally Posted by Airswimmer

Considering the OP was asking whether DRK having a self heal equivalent to Equilibrium/Clemency would be fair or not, that just isn't the case.
This thread is open for discussion, but you don't seem willing to offer any.

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The only discussion in this thread will eventually turn into "War iz OP" because it won't be long before people come in and cry about clemency having a cast time and equilibrium being instant.

The only thing I can think of that would make DRK self heal uinque is having an ability called Soul Drain on a 60 cooldown that drains hp from enemies (up to four) and grants a 1200 potency heal the less enemies there are the lower the potency. With a 50 potency attack slapped on to it.

IDK I tried.

As much as I would enjoy it, I still feel like strong Self Heals are a WAR thing. Clemency is a bit different as it can be used to help the party (or atleast I'm sure that's the given intent) while still healing the PLD.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be more interested in putting up a Galvanize effect on ourselves instead. Maybe as shroud's of darkness that get built up every time Dark Arts is used?

make blood weapon hp drain in grit mp without :x why is blood weapon draining mp anyway!?

@Rhaja

Going with a damage shield is an interesting and perfectly viable idea/option as in the end it too would just equate to an eHP boost, and it would definitely be different from the other abilities. Would be interesting to balance against a straight HP heal though.

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Originally Posted by Rhaja

I'd be more interested in putting up a Galvanize effect on ourselves instead.

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I don't play DRK, so I can't say how good it is or isn't, but it seems to me like that would help in the mitigation aspect if that's an issue.
It's almost hard to know if mitigation is an issue though.
Has anyone measured this? Like run some numbers comparitively cycling cooldowns?

Maybe if DA/SE returned x2 or x3 dmg as healing it would fit the kit and work with how often it is used.

Dmg as a shield for x1 would be neat, but might be too much.

Darkside
Increases Damage Dealt by 15%.
Increases Critical Chance by 15%.
Drains MP over time.

Soul Eater:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Potency: 280
Dark Arts Potency: 260
Dark Arts Combo Potency: 430
Grit Effect: Absorbs 200%, 100% of damage dealt as HP
Dark Arts fades upon execution.

Soul Survivor is just a badly made ability. I would change it to something different completely.
Living Dead is worse then Coal. Also a pretty badly made ability.

Soul Survivor could be made into an offensive stance.

Living Dead could be like:
Damage Reduction increase in place of HP drain.

@Nektulos-Tuor

Pls keep to the actual thread topic as I don't want this to devolve into a "nerf this/buff that/they're op" thread.

If you want to just list changes for existing abilities there are plenty of threads for that, many of which you made yourself.

This topic of discussion is simply as follows.
Would DRK having an ability equivalent to Clemency or Equilibrium be fair, seeing as they are the only tank that doesn't have something like this?
Why yes?
Why no?
How should it be implemented if it was?

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

^^^

Pls keep to the actual thread topic as I don't want this to devolve into a "nerf this/buff that/they're op" thread.

If you want to just list changes for existing abilities there are plenty of threads for that, many of which you made yourself.

This topic of discussion is simply as follows.
Would DRK having an ability equivalent to Clemency or Equilibrium be fair, seeing as they are the only tank that doesn't have something like this?
Why yes?
Why no?
How should it be implemented if it was?

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No there are too many freaking abilities as is.

If this is something to be looked at it should be integrated into what is already there.

Clemency isn't that great. You don't want anything like it.

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Originally Posted by Phoebus

No there are too many freaking abilities as is.

If this is something to be looked at it should be integrated into what is already there.

Clemency isn't that great. You don't want anything like it.

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Proposing that such an ability be integrated into an existing one is perfectly fine and easily falls into the "how should it be implemented if it was?" aspect of the discussion.

What they were doing is just throwing out a bunch of non-related complaints and changes to DRK abilities, which to me is veering way off topic.

Abyssal drain + DA on a large group of enemies is a lot of fun and has a pretty solid return on your HP (such as in A2 or pulling mobs in the two expert roulette dungeons). But I don't recommend spamming Abyssal Drain with Dark Arts unless you've got blood price going since with all the enemies that'll be hitting you, it'll cause your mp to fill up rather quickly.....and without blood price the mp drain from abyssal and dark arts is horribly high.

The biggest issue I see with giving us a burst self heal is what ability to attach it to. At best we could go with Shadow Wall, and while it would make the ability absolutely amazing, I could see some issues with us getting a big chunk of HP back and a thirty percent damage reduction.

Of course there is Carve and Spit. Make it flat 400 potency and with DA it does a self heal with triple the potency, without DA it does the MP restore.

I'd be fine with that.

Or they could just give us a second Dark Arts with every use. That would pretty much solve everything. Sure, it's not a burst self heal...but it's a simple and easy adjustment. Think about it...more uses of Soul Eater, easier mp management, allows you to easily use a Dark Arts boosted Dark Passenger + Dark Dance combo, abyssal drain wouldn't suck up mp as much when used to recover hp against mobs, an easier time trying to buff defensive CD's like Dark mind yet remain offensive by using the 2nd charge for soul eater/carve and spit....the list just goes on and on.

OK, serious answer... why?

What reason is there besides just "I want one", or "everyone else has one?" Not all tanks need to be the same or have the same abilities. Traditionally the WAR has been the self-heal tank, so Equilibrium fits, the PLD ahs been the party support tank, so Clemency fits, the DRK... not so much.

I think drk should get a self heal because it wouldn't be OP and it should replace sole survivor because that's the already kinda self heal but bad self heal.

So I'm thinking, wildfire like self heal.

Blood lust:
Takes 15% of the damage you deal over the next 15 seconds and stores it in a charge of blood lust. After you use the charge there is a 45 second cool down before you can build another charge.

The specific numbers could be changed for balancing but that's the general idea I had.

Dark Clemencuilibrium 0 mp cost, Cast time 3.0

Restores 300 TP
Dark Arts effect:
Restores HP with a potency of 1200

I'd rather the self heal not be attached to a CD like Shadow Wall, at all.

That means we'd have to blow our biggest CD any time we need to self heal, while neither War nor Pld need to do that. And Shadow Wall is on a 180 second cooldown, there would still be a problem with that alone.

If anything, it should replace Sole Survivor, and then reduced in cooldown slightly.

Drk should get like a 400 potency attack that absorbs 100% damage dealt as hp and have access to bloodbath as a cross-class skill.

Wait a minute...

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Drk should get like a 400 potency attack that absorbs 100% damage dealt as hp and have access to bloodbath as a cross-class skill.

Wait a minute...

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You clearly didn't read anything in this thread before you made a retarded post.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

I'd rather the self heal not be attached to a CD like Shadow Wall, at all.

That means we'd have to blow our biggest CD any time we need to self heal, while neither War nor Pld need to do that. And Shadow Wall is on a 180 second cooldown, there would still be a problem with that alone.

If anything, it should replace Sole Survivor, and then reduced in cooldown slightly.

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If we were to give DRK a self heal... Ditto

Souleater's HP absorb I'd like to see built into the WS, not gated behind Grit.

It isn't a self-heal exactly, but an what about an enhancement that makes a better alternative to self-healing: if Grit have an added effect of increasing maximum HP equal to the amount of HP absorbed via DRK abilities.

Currently:
DRK at half health: 5,000/10,000 >> uses Souleater for 2k damage >> 7,000/10,000 >> Receives 4k in healing from healers >> 10,000/10,000 (1k HP healing gone to waste)
Theoretical Grit Stance:
Half health: 5,000/10,000 >> 2k Souleater >> 7,000/12,000 >> Receives 4k in healing from healers >> 11,000/12,000 (No heals wasted)
Incoming damage would knock the HP max back down to 10,000. It wouldn't sustain over a duration like ToB. It's the same as having SE provide a Galvanize barrier instead of a self heal..

That sort of change would have a big impact though, and would probably come at a penalty to Grit's 20% Damage Reduction. But then again, my big pickle with DRK is Grit/Shadowskin are re-skins of Shield Oath/Rampart, so I'd welcome any change as long as it doesn't come too harsh

You're looking for a self buff better than Stoneskin/Thrill of Battle, but on the end of one of our most common combos.

edited i missed someone else post basically same thing

Well, Clemency is hardly a self heal since you can rarely cast it while taking any meaningful damage. So, it's only a skill you use during downtime and when you are not MTing and can afford 3 seconds of total DPS loss for what might just be a bunch of over-healing. It's a terrible ability.

Equilibrium on the other hand is amazing. It's free, it's instant, it scales well with buffs, the CD is not that long, and it can also be used to restore TP (though warriors don't really have TP issues). The burst healing you get from IB + Equilibrium basically guarantees tank buster followups will never kill you.

So I think the starting point of this topic is already a bit unclear. You have two abilities basically on two polar ends of the quality spectrum.

So it should be made more clear exactly what the point of this ability would be.

TBH, I don't think they need a 1200 potency self-heal. I think they'd be better off with a significant mana regen ability on a longer CD. Maybe something like 3000 MP on a 60 second recast while in Grit, 300 TP when out of Grit. The logic is when you are outside of Grit, Blood Weapon is sufficient MP regen but causes you to burn through TP. And, it gives you another source of consistent, upfront, and dependable mana regen while in Grit other than Carve and Spit. Basically, it's a mix of Infuriate and Equilibrium.

And as for HP regen, having an ability that lets you use your abilities more should result in the ability to drain more HP but with the added versatility of choice.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Drk should have a 1200 potency self heal.

It's dumb that they don't. In self healing, burst heals are what matter. As for Souleater HP returns, you aren't going to see very high HP returns at all unless you're in full slaying and are outside of Grit (Which wont be returning HP anyway), and can Dark Arts.

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While tanking I self heal on average 1.5k, when I crit I self heal for 2.5k. 1.5k is a lot... If you know a tank bust is coming use proper CD and immediately DA soul eat once hit..... 1.5k heal plus healers healing. And defensive CD... You're perfectly fine.

Clemency is not the same as Equilibrium
So let's stop putting them together as if they were and Dark Knight is left out.

Clemency is a cast ability, that really you should be using on someone else, not on yourself.
Equilibrium is amazing, but it is also on a cooldown where Clemency can be cast multiple times.

Equilibrium heals me for around 5-6k and when beserked for around 10-11k.

Could just tag it to Souleater + Dark arts. lower the damage to limit the useage. much like Carve n spit works. Just under dark arts more healing (1200 pot, like Clem) with lower damage. great balance of the two, would help with substain effect of Dark knight tanking.