A Warning for Buyers

This is a post meant to warn other naive, first-time buyers to avoid my mistakes. This is not a complaining post; I am not looking for sympathy, but to help others.

Foreword

So this evening, through a combination of naivete and what looked like a good opportunity, my Free Company was scammed out of several million gil. While the administration is sorting out the details of whether or not what happened to us counts as a scam, and whether or not we will be reimbursed, I wanted to use our misfortune to extend a warning to potential first-time buyers of housing. While many of you may look at this and see several warning flags (which I can see in retrospect), the fact is that it happened, and I'd like to do my part to prevent it happening to others.

Notes for Buyers

If you're in the market for a house, there are a few take-aways from our story that I'd like to share.

• Ask lots of questions. I learned details afterwards from others who came to the plot to warn people that would have made the sale seem extremely shady from the start. If I'd asked questions, I might have been able to avoid it.
• Make the seller state clearly what you will get for your gil. In my case, there is a small chance that my Free Company will not be reimbursed, because the terms of the sale were not explicitly stated (the seller initiated a race of sorts, saying that the winner would "get it"). However, with a clearly stated trade agreement, the GMs will have no choice but to rule in your favor.
• 3,000,000 (3M) gil is too good to be true. Pricing for houses is not well-documented anywhere. While it is easy to surmise that larger houses go for several million gil, there is no clear notice in game of what "several" is. The house we tried to purchase went up for sale near 20,000,000 gil once the title was relinquished, which made the 3,000,000 pricetag absurd. There are also evidently a lot of fees surrounding housing and transfers and the like that are also not well-documented, and in my case, 3M gil was just enough to cover those.
• Look up the process beforehand if you don't know it. The seller in my case feigned ignorance of how to transfer ownership, and attempted to make the relinquishment look like an accident at first. I'm not even sure if there IS a process for getting a house into someone else's hands without going through the market, but these are things I could have found out if I'd looked.
• Stick to the market. If you are a first time buyer and you don't know the ins and outs of the system, avoid private sales. It is too easy for someone who knows the way things work to trick someone who doesn't. If you don't have experience with it, use the default channels.
• Please look forward to it. There are strong, partly-confirmed rumors that the housing system will be revisited prior to 3.1, which likely means in the next month or so. If you're waiting to buy a house, that will likely be the time to buy.

TL,DR: Don't let your excitement and eagerness and desire cloud your judgment. It will come around to bite you in the behind.

Our Story

I saw a party in Party Finder advertising sale of a house for the first player to trade the owner 3M gil. Since my small FC has been in the market for a house for a long time, and since we've been stockpiling gil for an eventual purchase, I highlighted this to the officers and other members, and they told me to jump on it.

So I joined the party, and after retrieving the gil from the FC Chest, ported and sprinted to the designated plot. The seller greeted me, and I eagerly traded him our gil. Once he'd received all of it, the seller pulled the party from PF and said that he needed to see how to do it.

The title was relinquished, and the plot went up for sale on the market.

I asked the seller what was going on, and they said that was how it worked. I asked what our 3M was for, and they said it was for the fee to relinquish the land. Then they left the party while I stood, gawking at the plot that could have been ours, up for sale for more than we could afford.

I'm so sorry that that happened to you! I've seen party finders up offering to sell houses and I have always been confused by what exactly they are selling. It makes sense now that they are charging that much gil just to relinquish the land, not for you actually purchase the plot. They should be more clear in their details, as I'm sure there are a lot people out there doing this.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Our Story

I saw a party in Party Finder advertising sale of a house for the first player to trade the owner 3M gil. Since my small FC has been in the market for a house for a long time, and since we've been stockpiling gil for an eventual purchase, I highlighted this to the officers and other members, and they told me to jump on it.

So I joined the party, and after retrieving the gil from the FC Chest, ported and sprinted to the designated plot. The seller greeted me, and I eagerly traded him our gil. Once he'd received all of it, the seller pulled the party from PF and said that he needed to see how to do it.

The title was relinquished, and the plot went up for sale on the market.

I asked the seller what was going on, and they said that was how it worked. I asked what our 3M was for, and they said it was for the fee to relinquish the land. Then they left the party while I stood, gawking at the plot that could have been ours, up for sale for more than we could afford.

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I don't understand?

The agreement was for the house, and he delivered his end of the bargain which was to make the house available to purchase. Its you that didn't do the research, and prepare the requisite sum of money beforehand to purchase it.

It looks to me like you didn't bother find out what happens during a transfer, and are blaming the seller for your own ignorance.
AFAIK there is no way to directly transfer a house to another person(Unless its via taking control of an fc?)

Did you really expect someone to sell you a plot of land for 3mil gil and give you the extra money you needed to purchase it?

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Originally Posted by MysteryNotes

I don't understand?

The agreement was for the house, and he delivered his end of the bargain which was to make the house available to purchase. Its you that didn't do the research, and prepare the requisite sum of money beforehand to purchase it.

It looks to me like you didn't bother find out what happens during a transfer, and are blaming the seller for your own ignorance.
AFAIK there is no way to directly transfer a house to another person(Unless its via taking control of an fc?)

Did you really expect someone to sell you a plot of land for 3mil gil and give you the extra money you needed to purchase it?

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This is pretty much it. They haven't at least that I've heard, put in any method of transferring your house directly to another player. AFAIK someone could just camp the sellers spot, and as soon as he relinquished it, scoop it out from under you. All you are doing is paying him to give up his claim on the land. You don't get the land, the house or the building permit from the deal. Sounds like he was the legit one. Sorry to say.

Unfortunately, you're out of luck on this one. The seller was legit, AND selling the place at a huge discount, no less. On highly populated servers, people are asking up to two and three times the value of the lot, just to relinquish it.

As someone who recently bough a house from another player, I can tell you how it goes down:
You pay the owner to relinquish. They demolish their house, and relinquish the land. You HURRY to buy it off the plaque (it's open to anyone, so someone watching could rush in and grab it). THEN you own it and build on it.

At this time, there is no way to directly transfer a house or plot from one player/FC to another.

It's important to know the prices of land, as well:
http://imgur.com/a/n7wzC#2 for housing grades my lot.
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Personal_Housing for lot prices by server.
Combining these resources will give you the price of most land plots.

Idk, the whole party finder race to be the first sounds off to me though. Like you could do your research and be prepared, and be the first to trade the Gil, but once that's done it would be a race to be first to the market to buy the plot because unlike with a private exchange, everyone who looks at PF at that time knows that plot is about to be relinquished right then.

Outside of that, you're not buying a house from that player, you're only paying them to free up the plot as there isn't currently a way to directly transfer a house from one character to another outside of leadership of an FC with housing being passed to you. But if he never explicitly stated that until after accepting the Gil you may have grounds to stand on but it would ultimately depend on the gm's decision since SE have been very clear on how housing can be obtained even if the seller wasn't. Good luck on that, but you're right, it does pay to do research.

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Originally Posted by MysteryNotes

<snip>

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Well that's exactly it. There is no information about housing available within the game for prospective buyers. Pricing, fees, costs incurred, processes - there is nothing unless you've owned a house, or done research outside of the game. We didn't know that there was no way to transfer the house. The seller also implied with the party comments that they were going to transfer the house to us for that cost - there was no indication that we were just buying the opportunity to buy.

We weren't expecting them to relinquish the land and pay for our purchase: we were expecting a fair trade of 3M gil for the deed to the land. This does sound absurd now, but it seemed like the seller just wanted to get rid of it.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm looking to warn other newcomers to the market away from these scams, where they might rush headlong without this information and get burned the same way.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraluna

Idk, the whole party finder race to be the first sounds off to me though.

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I don't think so. Sounds like the guy just wanted to make a quick sale. If he was only asking 3M and not more or "best offer", he may have needed quick cash, or been quitting the game. Without the option to haggle and for such a low price, it seems practical to say "first here gets it".

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Well that's exactly it. There is no information about housing available within the game for prospective buyers. Pricing, fees, costs incurred, processes - there is nothing unless you've owned a house, or done research outside of the game.

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There isn't information on this process in-game because it was developed by players and the market, rather than SE. Private land sales are completely player-driven. That said, there is a lot to be said for research, like coming to this forum. I posted a question a while back, asking how much to expect to pay for a relinquish, and got a lot of great information. It paid off.

I'm really sorry for your misunderstanding. It doesn't sound like the person had any intention to deceive you though, they just assumed that you knew "buying" a house meant that you are paying them to relinquish the land.

I think this really ought to serve as a warning to sellers to make sure that the buyers they find are actually able to afford the land and understand what it is that they're buying. But at least understand that relinquishing their land for 3 million was already a huge deficit to them, so expecting them to refund your gil because of your mistake is problematic.

This is kind of a lose/lose situation that arose from a misunderstanding, not a scam. The only proper way to fix it would be to give the sellers their land back and give you your money back, which hopefully SE can do.

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Originally Posted by LiliaLia

This is kind of a lose/lose situation that arose from a misunderstanding, not a scam. The only proper way to fix it would be to give the sellers their land back and give you your money back, which hopefully SE can do.

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I'm not holding my breath on this one. The land was already purchased by another player, and I doubt if SE'd take it away from them.

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Originally Posted by Sylfaein

There isn't information on this process in-game because it was developed by players and the market, rather than SE. Private land sales are completely player-driven. That said, there is a lot to be said for research, like coming to this forum. I posted a question a while back, asking how much to expect to pay for a relinquish, and got a lot of great information. It paid off.

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Even so, there isn't anything about how much a house actually costs to purchase. There isn't anything that says that players can't transfer land directly to one another. Even with either of those things clearly stated somewhere, this whole scam/misunderstanding/whatever you want to call it would have been avoided.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Even so, there isn't anything about how much a house actually costs to purchase. There isn't anything that says that players can't transfer land directly to one another. Even with either of those things clearly stated somewhere, this whole scam/misunderstanding/whatever you want to call it would have been avoided.

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I was given these links when I asked about buying houses:
http://imgur.com/a/n7wzC#2 for housing grades my lot.
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Personal_Housing for lot prices by server.

I found several sources through Google that showed there was no direct transfer.

It's unfortunate that this happened, but the information is out there; you just have to look.

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Originally Posted by Sylfaein

I was given these links when I asked about buying houses:
http://imgur.com/a/n7wzC#2 for housing grades my lot.
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Personal_Housing for lot prices by server.

I found several sources through Google that showed there was no direct transfer.

It's unfortunate that this happened, but the information is out there; you just have to look.

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I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just saying that this information isn't available in game. We were operating in a time-sensitive manner, since we thought this rare opportunity of a house sale would evaporate. You and everyone else who is saying to have researched it first are correct: that is the thing to do. But that's also why I'm posting this, to hopefully help people like me avoid my mistake. Like I said in the first post, it was incredibly naive in hindsight.

Its very vague, but the resident caretaker in each housing ward kind of tells you how to buy a house. Couple things he has questions for is buying and relinquishing property. He does say you can only buy an unowned property, that coupled with relinquishing in would give somewhat of an idea, as there is no mention of player to player transactions. As for pricing, yes there is no values in game unless there is a plot for sale. Thing is it varies by world and where the plot is. It will also drop every 6 hours until it hits its bottom value. Not that any of this helps, just an FYI.

Seller was legit. That's how buying a plot from a player works. The only other way is to buy a FC with a plot. But you would still need to relinquish the plot from that FC and re-buy it with yours. Unless you made everyone switch to the FC you bought. I'm sorry it happened to you, but you could have asked questions or done some research. You're on the forums so you know where to go to do some research. The mistake was completely yours. As the buyer and FC leader the onus is on you. You shouldn't have just given a stranger 3mil without knowing exactly what would go down. Sorry if I seem a bit harsh, but I'm an officer in my FC and if I had done what you did my leader would have ripped me a good one. In fact, I'm certain he'd demote any officer so careless with our gil. Of course the seller could have asked if you knew what you were doing, but he probably assumed you did.

There actually is quite a bit of info in the help menu for housing. The seller didn't do anything wrong, he probably assumed you knew what you were doing. If he were to give you back your Gil, he'd not only be out 3m, he'd also be out not having a house.

I think it was just an unfortunately mistake, and I don't see a GM making him give your Gil back, unless they can get him his property and all furnishings that were destroyed back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Even so, there isn't anything about how much a house actually costs to purchase. There isn't anything that says that players can't transfer land directly to one another. Even with either of those things clearly stated somewhere, this whole scam/misunderstanding/whatever you want to call it would have been avoided.

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You're right - there isn't anything that says players can't do this and that, because the list would be too long. The help menu only says what you CAN do. if it's not listed, you should assume you CAN'T do it, or research online how it could be done. It just would not be possible to list all of what you CAN'T do in game.

If land is legitimately up for sale, the cost is displayed. There's no cost displayed to relinquish the land, as that's not part of the actual purchasing process and therefore not in the help menu. The help menu only reviews purchasing land the way the game intended.

I think what's happened here is that you just simply didn't understand what was happening and didn't review the help menu, or you would have seen there's no mention of purchasing from another player. The "seller" assumed you knew how it all worked, and likely meant no scam.

I wouldn't blame him here, as I don't think he's at fault.

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Originally Posted by Sylfaein

I don't think so. Sounds like the guy just wanted to make a quick sale. If he was only asking 3M and not more or "best offer", he may have needed quick cash, or been quitting the game. Without the option to haggle and for such a low price, it seems practical to say "first here gets it".

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I get what you're saying and I agree, but I guess my line of reasoning was that putting it up in party finder the way OP described is basically advertising to the server that this is happening right now. If someone really wanted to, had the gil to buy and didn't feel like paying to have a plot relinquished, they could just camp the market board until it shows up and potentially grab it before the hopeful buyer can, whether or not that person is connected with the seller. GMs wouldn't be able to do anything about that and neither would the original buyer or seller. That's why I said it sounded iffy to me.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraluna

I get what you're saying and I agree, but I guess my line of reasoning was that putting it up in party finder the way OP described is basically advertising to the server that this is happening right now. If someone really wanted to, had the gil to buy and didn't feel like paying to have a plot relinquished, they could just camp the market board until it shows up and potentially grab it before the hopeful buyer can, whether or not that person is connected with the seller. GMs wouldn't be able to do anything about that and neither would the original buyer or seller. That's why I said it sounded iffy to me.

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They would have to know exactly where the plot was to be able to do that. It COULD be done, but the sneakthief would have to be able to track down the plot between all 3 cities and all their wards AND get there efore the buyer could take it off the plaque. I'm assuming that the seller didn't put ward and plot number in the ad, of course.

Which is exactly why se needs to implement a safe, fair way to sell houses to other players!

Should have been in place the day housing was released, no excuses.

Sorry to hear about your situation op ;;...agree the guy didnt do anything wrong, but I certainly can see where the confusion could come from.

I would periodically check my FC's house district's map to see if a house would pop for sale. Finally got lucky the other day and had enough on me to buy a small in the goblet for 2.2mil. I didn't have to pay another player extra to relinquish the property that way. Though in the end, I am in a pretty awkward place lol. A mansion's yard is overlooking mine xD anyways, patience can help a lot. There were a few people who came over to check it out while I was building it, so you have to be quick.

As crappy as it sounds, it is something I knew from the beginning. The cost was for them to try to make some money back for moving/ losing their house and belongings.

There is no 'transfer' service; yet

That is how I bought my small house. I paid for the FC to relinquish it, then bought it. Its not a scam. It's how just about everyone is doing it. There is no information because SE didn't plan for people to start doing this, hence why there isn't a transfer system yet. This is a process made up by the community.

I nearly got caught like this as, like the OP, I didn't understand how the transfer process worked. I just assumed that the gil you paid was a transfer in itself. Fortunately the seller asked me if I had the gil to purchase the plot on top of the fee for him to relinquish it (which I didn't). Realising I didn't understand the process sent me here to the forums to do a post search.

I do agree with the OP though. This information could be made MUCH clearer in game. I've talked to the housing NPCs and they really don't make it obvious that there is absolutely no way (currently) to transfer a plot. It's kind of implied, yes, when you ask about relinquishing land but, if you didn't already know how it worked, it's easy to miss the point.

I actually got my house for 2.5m....

After I handed over the gil, I realized I had not done the quest to unlock housing -_-

The guy waited for me while I sprinted to get the quest done. He even told a passerby that it was sold. Both of them were kind enough not to rip me off....


Really unfortunate what happened here. I hope SE comes through.

That sucks...sorry to hear that. I can't wait until there are free plots to buy on my server...has not been any for forever.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm looking to warn other newcomers to the market away from these scams, where they might rush headlong without this information and get burned the same way.

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This wasn't a scam though. The seller was legit and was even offering a rather afforable price. Due to how limited the availability housing is, most servers have no houses available so the market is all player driven. The selling of plot relinquishment is not just common, for most servers it's the only option. It is a completely, fair assumption that due to the rarity of houses, you probably know what you're getting into if you are wanting to buy a house. I do not even fault this other player for not expounding; he should not be expected to.

The only "warning" here should be for players to do research before buying. Is this your first MMO by any chance? Most MMOs usually have at least one player driven market that the developers did not intend. It's not really uncommon. (For example, paying for speed runs or 'runs' in general in GW1)

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Our Story


This is a post meant to warn other naive, first-time buyers to avoid my mistakes. This is not a complaining post; I am not looking for sympathy, but to help others.

Foreword

So this evening, through a combination of naivete and what looked like a good opportunity, my Free Company was scammed out of several million gil. While the administration is sorting out the details of whether or not what happened to us counts as a scam, and whether or not we will be reimbursed, I wanted to use our misfortune to extend a warning to potential first-time buyers of housing. While many of you may look at this and see several warning flags (which I can see in retrospect), the fact is that it happened, and I'd like to do my part to prevent it happening to others.

Notes for Buyers

If you're in the market for a house, there are a few take-aways from our story that I'd like to share.
Ask lots of questions. I learned details afterwards from others who came to the plot to warn people that would have made the sale seem extremely shady from the start. If I'd asked questions, I might have been able to avoid it.
Make the seller state clearly what you will get for your gil. In my case, there is a small chance that my Free Company will not be reimbursed, because the terms of the sale were not explicitly stated (the seller initiated a race of sorts, saying that the winner would "get it"). However, with a clearly stated trade agreement, the GMs will have no choice but to rule in your favor.
3,000,000 (3M) gil is too good to be true. Pricing for houses is not well-documented anywhere. While it is easy to surmise that larger houses go for several million gil, there is no clear notice in game of what "several" is. The house we tried to purchase went up for sale near 20,000,000 gil once the title was relinquished, which made the 3,000,000 pricetag absurd. There are also evidently a lot of fees surrounding housing and transfers and the like that are also not well-documented, and in my case, 3M gil was just enough to cover those.
Look up the process beforehand if you don't know it. The seller in my case feigned ignorance of how to transfer ownership, and attempted to make the relinquishment look like an accident at first. I'm not even sure if there IS a process for getting a house into someone else's hands without going through the market, but these are things I could have found out if I'd looked.
Stick to the market. If you are a first time buyer and you don't know the ins and outs of the system, avoid private sales. It is too easy for someone who knows the way things work to trick someone who doesn't. If you don't have experience with it, use the default channels.
Please look forward to it. There are strong, partly-confirmed rumors that the housing system will be revisited prior to 3.1, which likely means in the next month or so. If you're waiting to buy a house, that will likely be the time to buy.

TL,DR: Don't let your excitement and eagerness and desire cloud your judgment. It will come around to bite you in the behind.


I saw a party in Party Finder advertising sale of a house for the first player to trade the owner 3M gil. Since my small FC has been in the market for a house for a long time, and since we've been stockpiling gil for an eventual purchase, I highlighted this to the officers and other members, and they told me to jump on it.

So I joined the party, and after retrieving the gil from the FC Chest, ported and sprinted to the designated plot. The seller greeted me, and I eagerly traded him our gil. Once he'd received all of it, the seller pulled the party from PF and said that he needed to see how to do it.

The title was relinquished, and the plot went up for sale on the market.

I asked the seller what was going on, and they said that was how it worked. I asked what our 3M was for, and they said it was for the fee to relinquish the land. Then they left the party while I stood, gawking at the plot that could have been ours, up for sale for more than we could afford.

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This situation falls into a morally grey area as there doesn't seem to be a malicious act on the land seller's part. He knew there was no proper way to sell one to one and had no way of knowing you were ignorant of that well known common knowledge. But at the same time, he did what he was payed to do. 3 million to relinquish the land likely didn't even pay his investment back if he was selling anything but a small plot so the three million was a pittance compared to the property's value. If you were ignorant of the fact that not only is land not exchangeable between players but also what property prices actually are for free plots, then I'm afraid the GMs will find no fault in the seller due to the fault being in your own ignorance of common knowledge information. For future reference, Smalls=1.5-5 million, Mediums=15-80 million, and Larges =100-500 million depending on the server. If it was anything over a small my "Fish Sencor" would have been going off immediately but alas I'm also aware of the pricing as you unfortunately weren't.

P.S. I also took the liberty of combining your first and second posts Jpec as they could have been one post using edit. Also for the fact some people may have their UIs set up like mine where newest posts are 1st and the OP is last.

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Originally Posted by MsCroc

The only "warning" here should be for players to do research before buying. Is this your first MMO by any chance? Most MMOs usually have at least one player driven market that the developers did not intend. It's not really uncommon. (For example, paying for speed runs or 'runs' in general in GW1)

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I'll admit I've sold my Tank and Healer services before and even payed for a few but the idea of someone willingly running off with cash is obscene and immoral. I always offer full and partial refunds to (by my definition) botched runs if a run didn't run as smooth as planed and I typically don't pay until after the run of which I pat the agreed price, no more, no less.

Holy sheez... whoa... okay...

So, when someone says that they are "selling their house plot" what they REALLY mean is "they are only relinquishing the land plot so if you don't have enough money to re-buy the plot then you are SOL"

Yeah, thanks for this topic TC. I'm so sorry to hear that that happened to you. :(
But really, THANK YOU for this.

Yikes! I had no idea!
After all the crap I put up with in WoW (trolling, griefing etc) I don't have much faith in people anymore... So, I think I'll just play it safe and wait, however long it takes, for Square to either add more plots or implement the method they discussed in the interviews...

It will be a LONG wait. Probably years, but maybe by then I'll have a lot of money saved up and can actually afford one.

I want to change choco color and have a garden. I can wait for as long as it takes. :3

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Originally Posted by Kyu-Momo

It will be a LONG wait. Probably years, but maybe by then I'll have a lot of money saved up and can actually afford one.

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Not necessarily. I saved up for a few weeks (between 3-4), and ended up paying someone 2M gil to relinquish a small on Exodus (medium server), then bought the lot for 3.6M. You just have to keep an eye on the market.

It's against the TOS to buy houses from players. If you've read it you'd know it's against the rules so i'm surprised you even have your account.

"Your character was found to be involved in a transaction of selling a housing plot that was not readied by the system that was determined to be inappropriate. The transaction was determined to be inappropriate behavior towards others.

The violations committed in this case fall under:
FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement:
3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other a user, including the disruption of SQUARE ENIX’s computers and servers.
3.6 Any Illegal Activities. You may not conduct any illegal activities whatsoever in connection with the Game. This includes every illegal activity not specifically highlighted above, including without limitation gambling, defamation, harassment, and fraud."

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Originally Posted by HaseoTM

It's against the TOS to buy houses from players. If you've read it you'd know it's against the rules so i'm surprised you even have your account.

"Your character was found to be involved in a transaction of selling a housing plot that was not readied by the system that was determined to be inappropriate. The transaction was determined to be inappropriate behavior towards others.

The violations committed in this case fall under:
FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement:
3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other a user, including the disruption of SQUARE ENIX’s computers and servers.
3.6 Any Illegal Activities. You may not conduct any illegal activities whatsoever in connection with the Game. This includes every illegal activity not specifically highlighted above, including without limitation gambling, defamation, harassment, and fraud."

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No it's not.

I am crying.

3mil for a medium?? Mediums are about 20mil from the game.. oh man. I don't think you were scammed at all that guy did you a favor.

On Balmung we pay 100mil for someone to relinquish a medium, then we pay 20mil to the game.

Check the post dates. This thread was brought back to life from over 2 years ago.

OOH you're right, but still, WHEW.

3 million for a scam? gee that money is easy to make in a few days... but it is the buyers fault too, SE allows it but doesn't get inbetween what happens unless they think it's a sale for real money. Good luck getting a house when wards open up!