Wild Idea - Change DRK damage from Slashing to Magic + Give Resistance Down Debuff

So I think one of the areas of improvement needed for DRK is their lack of decent raid utility. Obviously, just give them some type of slash down debuff would mostly resolve that problem but I don't really think it's the best way to go since that route is already covered by two other jobs.

So here is my idea: change the damage type of DRKs from slashing to magical damage. This would open up for some pretty interesting job synergy that the game is currently lacking.

First, while I understand it make sense that the massive swords DRKs swing around do slashing damage, however as we know DRKs are plenty familiar with the magic side of things. I don't think it's too much of a leap of logic for the lore enthusiasts to accept that DRKs extend a magic aura around their blade or whatever which would covert the damage type to magic.

Now if we do this, it opens up an interesting opportunity for some unique raid synergy. In addition to changing the damage type, a -10% magic resistance down debuff should be added either to Power Slash or Soul Eater (that doesn't required DA to activate). This would give a nice little boost to DRKs to make up for the lack of a slashing debuff of their own as well as provide a unique extra boost to the other half of the damage dealers in this game.

Right now we don't have any melee skills that help out our magic damage friends. Foe's and Bishop's Turret pretty much are the only two skills in the game that cover this. I think it would be great to see a tank that is focused on improving the magic capabilities of a party and it seems like DRK could be made to be it.

Now I don't claim this is to be the ideal solution when balancing come into play. I'm aware that there are three different kinds of melee dmg but just one kind of magic dmg so I just don't have enough damage data to really know if this will completely throw off the dmg output of a party as desired by the developers. Of course there are ways around this still if a 10% increase on top of what already is available is too much. You could for example drop it to 5% and have Foe's overwrite it if 15% or 20% is too much to stack but I'll leave those kinds of details to the developers.

If they did this, the debuff would have to be added to Delirium's debuff most likely as that makes the most sense. That being said, what do you do with our abilities that are already magic as you just took one of the things that makes them unique away? I like the idea though. Even if they just gave us the debuff and didn't change our damage type I'd be happy with that.

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Originally Posted by LordHousewife

If they did this, the debuff would have to be added to Delirium's debuff most likely as that makes the most sense. That being said, what do you do with our abilities that are already magic as you just took one of the things that makes them unique away? I like the idea though. Even if they just gave us the debuff and didn't change our damage type I'd be happy with that.

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I'm not sure that anything needs to be done with the current magic skills? I'm not sure I follow. They would still be magic type, they would obviously just benefit from the resistance down debuff if it's on the enemy.

I don't think it needs to be added to Delirium though. Delirium is the counterpart to Rage of Halon where it reduces inbound magic damage to Halon's physical dmg reduction. DRKs having both an INT down and MAG Resistance Down would be similar to WARs having both Storms Path and Storms Eye.

It'd further play up the battlemage thing and give them more utility. I'd go with it.

Or they could just make it blunt damage and make Delirium exactly like Dragon Kick and cancel each other like Storm's Eye and Dancing Edge. I think that greatswords would be more accurate to be listed as blunt damage. I don't think you can really cut off things with a giant claymore (it's not a katana), but you surely break bones and rip off entire body parts. Plus, we still have only one blunt damage job.

...Greatswords can cut things. They're bladed. They slice. Like regular swords, daggers, and axes.

Listing it as blunt would be absolutely mindboggling.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Or they could just make it blunt damage and make Delirium exactly like Dragon Kick and cancel each other like Storm's Eye and Dancing Edge. I think that greatswords would be more accurate to be listed as blunt damage. I don't think you can really cut off things with a giant claymore (it's not a katana), but you surely break bones and rip off entire body parts. Plus, we still have only one blunt damage job.

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Well the fact that there is only one blunt class would be my concern there as part of the idea here is to create some better group synergy while also giving DRKs a bit a self boost. Blunt down is already covered by the class that needs it so it's not very useful to a group. The magic side of things aren't well covered though with it only coming from two classes in the game with awkward mechanics in tow to maintain it.

My major concern would be if is encroaches on the BRD niche or not. Honestly I don't really know how much BRDs are sought after in parties on Foes alone and if DRKs being able to also reduce magic resistance would dilute the BRD advantage too much. It could very well be a welcomed advantage allowing BRDs to focus on other aspects. I'd love to hear the prospective from some BRDs on this.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Well the fact that there is only one blunt class would be my concern there as part of the idea here is to create some better group synergy while also giving DRKs a bit a self boost. Blunt down is already covered by the class that needs it so it's not very useful to a group.

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The Dragon Kick debuff could be split to get rid of that weird "MNK and DRK don't benefit from each other in a party" thing. Move the Blunt Resistance debuff for Demolish on MNK and leave the INT Down debuff on Dragon Kick. Problem solved without having to turn DRK damage blunt or change the great swords to great paddles for same.

Hmm learned something new did not know DRK was just slashing I thought they were magic too.

I assumed they benefited from foe's.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Hmm learned something new did not know DRK was just slashing I thought they were magic too.

I assumed they benefited from foe's.

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We have a handful of magic based skills. It's mostly just the AEs and Unmend though. Auto-attack damage, all the weapon skills and stuff like Plunge, Carve and Split are all slashing damage based.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I'm not sure that anything needs to be done with the current magic skills? I'm not sure I follow. They would still be magic type, they would obviously just benefit from the resistance down debuff if it's on the enemy.

I don't think it needs to be added to Delirium though. Delirium is the counterpart to Rage of Halon where it reduces inbound magic damage to Halon's physical dmg reduction. DRKs having both an INT down and MAG Resistance Down would be similar to WARs having both Storms Path and Storms Eye.

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Small details like these are actually really important, believe it or not, for how well a class will do on fights with certain mechanics and for overall game balance. I am strapped on time right now so I'll jump back in later to explain.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

So here is my idea: change the damage type of DRKs from slashing to magical damage. This would open up for some pretty interesting job synergy that the game is currently lacking.

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I like this idea, but I think it should tied to Darkside. In addition, I'd change Delirium so the the Dark Arts effect would be a resistance debuff and not an INT debuff.

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Originally Posted by Delily

I like this idea, but I think it should tied to Darkside. In addition, I'd change Delirium so the the Dark Arts effect would be a resistance debuff and not an INT debuff.

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I like this, but I don't see why it can't have both. Monks already have something similar with Dragon Kick. The problem with Delirium is that it's underwhelming and taking the INT debuff off of it does not solve this. Keep the INT, add magic resist down.

BLM & SMN would be way too strong if DRK could reduce target magic resistance. Blunt is somewhat understandable to increase synergy with MNK, but even that is pushing it with the DPS boost gained. I'd rather just see Dark Dance turned into a parry version of Sheltron so I could Reprisal on command.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Or they could just make it blunt damage and make Delirium exactly like Dragon Kick and cancel each other like Storm's Eye and Dancing Edge. I think that greatswords would be more accurate to be listed as blunt damage. I don't think you can really cut off things with a giant claymore (it's not a katana), but you surely break bones and rip off entire body parts. Plus, we still have only one blunt damage job.

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This is a goofy video, but it does demonstrate that Claymores had pretty good cutting power. Skip to 5:08 to see what it'd do to a human head. OUCH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_I_fkRngNM

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

This is a goofy video, but it does demonstrate that Claymores had pretty good cutting power. Skip to 5:08 to see what it'd do to a human head. OUCH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_I_fkRngNM

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Okay granted. I was imagining much bigger blades tho, like Deathbringer, which doesn't seem that it can really cut anything like that.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Okay granted. I was imagining much bigger blades tho, like Deathbringer, which doesn't seem that it can really cut anything like that.

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This is a better demonstration of the Claymore cutting power: Here. I skipped to the part where he demonstrates it so you won't have to watch the whole thing (though it was interesting to watch).

Okay I never expected a claymore could cut like a katana lol

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Okay I never expected a claymore could cut like a katana lol

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All swords were made to "cut". And we're talking about flesh here. The hardest part to cut in a living being is the bones, but even that was cut through with different blades.

Katana was a very sharp weapon, it's true, but it wasn't the sharpest mankind had seen. The Japanese do a great job glorifying it, as they should! But any blade with a curve was VERY sharp and didn't rely as much on its weight. Sabers, Arabian swords and the katana were great examples of relatively "lighter" blades that had extreme cutting power.

Claymore cuts because of its weight. Knight swords were also capable of slicing a man in half with a powerful enough swing.

Want some fun facts? Search Damascus steel swords. Those were famed to "cut", not just flesh, but other swords and rifle barrels. Though I don't know why a technology, used first in India, is named after a middle eastern city (Damascus).

Now imagine what a sword like that does backed by an overpowered godslayer backing the swing with black magic goodness.

Carnage.

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Originally Posted by Disc

BLM & SMN would be way too strong if DRK could reduce target magic resistance. Blunt is somewhat understandable to increase synergy with MNK, but even that is pushing it with the DPS boost gained. I'd rather just see Dark Dance turned into a parry version of Sheltron so I could Reprisal on command.

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First of all, while I agree with the Dark Dance thing and have often said the same thing myself, it is completely off topic. That's besides the point however. How would this change make BLM and SMN too strong? Foe Requiem already does the same thing and I am pretty sure OP said they wouldn't stack.

I have done a similar proposal some time ago.
I'll report here the quote of my thread:

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Originally Posted by Mattiux

Hi fellow Tanks :)

i apologize in advance for my english,i'll try my best. ^^

So, i know currently we have TONS of Dark Knight revamp post and... sandly this is another one. But this proposal has been around in my head for a while.

-Delirium:
With a MnK in the party is a pretty useless skill. Change it to a magical resistance down debuff. Something like 5% to help the Dark knight utility to fit in the party. The debuff can't stack with foe ballad (otherwise it will be too powerfull) not sure about the Hypercharged effect of Mch, this needs developer test.

-Reprisal
Reprisal can stay as it is, just add a possibility to use it without the proc if you are under the effect of Dark Arts. Obv Dark Arts fade upon execution. This change will cover the lost of Delirium effect in non-mnk-party and help the DrK to be in pair with the warrior debuff. If the effect with Storm path is too strong, just make that it lower the potency if stacked up with it.
-Dark Arts
The DA reprisal will cost tons of MP, less souleater buffed less damage. To fix it i wonder if we can make the DA buffed attack as also magic attack. in this way it will provide a little buff from Delirium and make the Dark knight a kind of magic tank. (well... not so much but more on pair with the lore and the ability mood)

Carve and Spit
Add a little regene of TP if you are using it outside of Dark Arts.

Conclusion
With this changes the DrK will have more utility for the party on the same route of the other Tanks skill ( Pld have huge party mitigation and help skill now, Warrior still prove the two Storm skill debuff). Moreover, in that way the Drk will have less conflictual skill (delirium with monk), reliance on other job (War, Nin) and less situation skill (reprisal).

If you have readed so far, Thank you for your time ^^

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I support the whole magic + magic resist down thing.

It would certainly make DRK be more viable for a magic heavy party, reduce the need for BRD/MCH, and allow them their own place.

However, the problem is now PLD suck...even more. Give PLD slashing and damage down (stacking with warrior) and call it a day.

Before Early Access, when Famitsu article teased about new Job Abilities, anticipation for PLD getting the Slashing Debuff & DRK getting a Trick Attack Vulnerability Up for utility was there - at least I think.

I think the magic damage and Foe Req alternate can work if done properly - it'd be a pretty big change but could be fun. Not related to OPs suggestion but spit-ball utility for DRK via Absorbs:

Combo'd Delirium, Magic Absorb: Magic Damage Down (a la Rend Mind) debuff + Magic Damage Up (only effects Passenger, Unleashed, Unmend, Abyssal Drain) buff
Combo'd Power Slash, Power Absorb: Physical Damage Down (a la Rend Weapon) debuff + Physical Damage Up buff
Reprisal, Defense Absorb: Vulnerability Up debuff + Damage Reduction buff (recast&proc mechanic altered if necessary)

Even if debuffs didn't stack DRK would still have incentive to maintain them for the buff aspects..

DRK doesn't really need DPS buffs, but just for IMO improved gameplay enjoyment, I would like to see more buff/debuff management on DRK since it's really right now only about oGCD recast management, MP conservation, and maintaining Scourge.

IMO the silver-lining for the no utility DRK at the moment is they have a WS oGCD & combo layout that does have a spread where utility would fit in nicely (and this is even before factoring in Dark Arts, whether that works as an added gate to utility application). IMO the big 4 are C&S, Reprisal, Power Slash, Delirium. If 3.1 has utility additions to DRK, I think that's where they'd go

The issue to this is. We won't be able to hold aggro against Summoners or Black Mages in normal groups or have a much harder time. Unless our main source of damage is Magic.

I would love the Dark Knight to have more Physical+Magical attacks and cast timers on his spells but more powerful effects.

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Originally Posted by LordHousewife

How would this change make BLM and SMN too strong? Foe Requiem already does the same thing and I am pretty sure OP said they wouldn't stack.

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Foe Requiem is nowhere near 100% up time.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The issue to this is. We won't be able to hold aggro against Summoners or Black Mages in normal groups or have a much harder time. Unless our main source of damage is Magic.

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Wtf man that's complete BS. We already have no issues at all holding agro against SMN and BLM with Foe Requiem on, and our AoE moves are already only magic. And single target we have like the most powerful enmity combo out of the 3 tanks lol. And OP clearly said he wanted to make all DRK attacks magic instead of slaying, it's even in the freaking title.

To step on the weapon types conversation. But a katana is a really BAD weapon. Very prone to breaking and shattering. The fancy folding method wasn't to make it super strong.. it was used to mask the poor construction. You can watch youtube videos of katana's breaking in half from normal style chopping style swings. They required a very different swing type that closely resembles certain fishing rod movements.

As for the damascus steel issue. The reason it's so sharp is due to micro carbides that occur due to the types of iron,carbon and magnetite ores used and forging techniques. It goes by many names, Wootz Steel, Seric Iron and Damascus Steel. It comes from Southern India. Damascus is a Syrian city

Folding steel for katanas had more to do with the quality of materials available. It was meant to overcome impurities in the metal, not cover a flaw in construction. The iron found in Japan was lower quality than a lot of what you would've found in many European countries. This issue actually persists today with components of modern weapons when comparing the resources of countries like China & Romania.

I'm a fan of war history.

I'm not entirely convinced that even stacking with Foe's, a 10% boost in SMN and BLM single target would overpower them even if it does stack with Foe's. Based on the numbers I am currently seeing, SMNs and BLMs are doing around 1100-1200 single target while the melees are over 1500 (with a bard in the group). A 10% boost to the magic users would put them in the realm of 1200-1350 single target.

Also keep in mind, realistically a DRK is going to be able to keep this on one enemy, so situations like A1S where SMNs see higher numbers because they can DOT both Oppressors, they will only see a boost from one Oppressor. And of course this isn't much of a boost in AE fights like A2S and can't really be applied to add heavy fights either. Foes would continue to be the far superior option here.

Of course healers will see a damage boost as well so there is always that as a factor. But again, keep in mind here the idea is to boost raid effectiveness so that is kind of the point here. Does 10% stacking boost increase raid damage too much overall with a DRK in a party? Maybe. Drop it down to 5% if that is the case(which might not be a bad idea because then it make sense for Foe's to overwrite this. It could stack with MCH still though and then a MCH+DRK party would get a similar benefit to when a BRD is around). And again, as mentioned if there are stacking concerns then this game has dealt with debuff stacking plenty of times so I don't really see this concern a huge issue here as well.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Based on the numbers I am currently seeing, SMNs and BLMs are doing around 1100-1200 single target while the melees are over 1500 (with a bard in the group).

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You're saying melee do about 50% more damage than mages single target. You are wrong. There's no other way to put it.

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Originally Posted by Disc

You're saying melee do about 50% more damage than mages single target. You are wrong. There's no other way to put it.

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300-400 is way different than 550-600.

They're still wrong, but it's far from 50%.

I rounded.

You're saying melee do about 25-36.36%+ more damage than mages single target!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The issue to this is. We won't be able to hold aggro against Summoners or Black Mages in normal groups or have a much harder time. Unless our main source of damage is Magic.

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I don't follow your logic. Dark knights have no threat issues. Black mages and summoners love us because they know they'll get to cut loose.

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Originally Posted by Disc

I rounded.

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Rounded to what? Almost twice the amount lol.

That being said, I have been seeing larger numbers come out of melees than ranged. It's not nearly the 1550 to 1100-1200 discrepancy that Ladon was describing but I think melees are definitely doing noticeably more dps than ranged.

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Originally Posted by LordHousewife

Rounded to what? Almost twice the amount lol.

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See now your numbers are flawed. 50% is not even close to twice 36.36%, somebody is rounding up to prove a point. My experiences are just the opposite though, I see the highest damage coming from good BLM on single target. I admittedly rarely run anything with SMNs.

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Originally Posted by Disc

See now your numbers are flawed. 50% is not even close to twice 36.36%, somebody is rounding up to prove a point. My experiences are just the opposite though, I see the highest damage coming from good BLM on single target. I admittedly rarely run anything with SMNs.

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Top DPS as of 3.05(single target)
Monk, Dragoon, Ninja

If either of these are in your party doing less than a BLM on a single enemy, then they are under performing.

Prove it. And then I typed more than ten characters.

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Originally Posted by Disc

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There is a DPS forum you know. Anyone breaking extremely high DPS is a Monk , Ninja , or Dragoon, the devs have said melee's are intended to be the highest single target, Monk has always out damaged Black Mage single target, originally Dragoon was also out damaged by Monk but they're much more even now, actually dragoon might even have a slight lead. Ninja is about even with Monk but has higher burst. There's no need for us to even parse ourselves, There are plenty of parses in the DPS forum, on youtube, and reddit, practically all over the net to show that a Black mage will always be less than a Melee on single target. Unless said melee is under performing or of lesser skill. The game is just balanced that way.

Then you will have no trouble at all finding the proof to backup your statements.