Cleric Stance in PvP

Hi,

I don't really like front line pvp 'cause of the too high number of players.
For me 15 guys should be the max. Whatever...

I play healer in front line cause i'm experienced in pvp (especially in healer), and it really is annoying to not be able to use Cleric stance.

I did a duel against a monk as an astro, and the fight just last "forever". My dot and direct magical strikes are really weak if i can't switch my spirit into intel points. That's already something to manage to cast heal and attack against a dps, but why not allowing us to make significant damages ?

Healing in frontline is already quit boring since your buff and aoe heal doesn't affect your allies but just your teamates. Allow us to be independant by using cleric stance.

Thanks.

(for now i'm lvling up a BlM until i'll be able to dps with my Astro in pvp)

Then play a blm or smn if you enjoy dps. I don't understand what you are complaining about. I don't see tanks and dps complaining how they can't heal.

There were issues when the pvp just started that the party of healers were the way to go, the regens of medical stacked making the party invencible, and in top of that the healers had a good damage output. Also the SCH was so strong 1vs1, so SE decided to "fix" the issue the worst way possible and made healing in pvp extremely boring

Cleric stance was removed for a reason, healers are tanky, have heals and have tonnes of cc/support skills, letting them also deal fairly substantial damage at the same time was pretty absurd

If you are sat at the back of a group pretending to be a dps, then you should switch to a dps role

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There were issues when the pvp just started that the party of healers were the way to go

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FL wasnt the start of pvp and is barely even worth calling pvp at this point, its just bad players farting around pretending to be good so they can get thier pve rewards.

Cleric stance also gave scholars a huge advantage in wolves den over white mage, no one misses it in wolves den

I understand all the people that are afraid of healers with Cleric Stance, but we got really shafted on the new mode and archivements. You get bonus for killing people and some archivement. As a healer, unless we "steal" someone else kill, we cant do any of those. SE please at least on the PvP modes that have that bonus and archivement tie to it let us use Cleric Stance.

There's no bonus for getting kills. The only thing that is tied to kills is achievements which have a title tied to 1000 kills.

Putting in cleric stance would just encourage class stacking healers again and throw balance out of the window if it wasn't already.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

There's no bonus for getting kills. The only thing that is tied to kills is achievements which have a title tied to 1000 kills.

Putting in cleric stance would just encourage class stacking healers again and throw balance out of the window if it wasn't already.

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So Battle High and Battle Fever are not bonus for killing people?

I'm not concerned about score board or achivements. I just wanna be able to use my astro in his full potential, and it includes some dps. the class was obviously created to use cleric stance to perform some significant damage.
While i dps, i don't heal, it's as simple as that.
In the balanced instance, like wolf's den, if i would able to use cleric stance, the opposite healer could do it too. What's the problem ? it's balanced.

In the new front line, the team make-up are free. So anyway it's unbalanced. It's not like i was able to heal while dpsing & vice versa.
If a dps want to kill me he could, if he's at least as good as i'm with my heal. But i, too, would like to be able to kill him myself and not just running away to bring him get killed by 3 or 4 of my teamates. It's pvp not the "cowards meeting".

Healers would be broken in pvp with clerics. With all their heavy/bind/slow/stun abilities, most of which are OGCD, it would be too easy for SCH and WHM to massacre any DPS since DPS can't really heal.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

So Battle High and Battle Fever are not bonus for killing people?

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I wouldn't call it a bonus as much as I'd call it a "kick me" sign. I don't consider it a "bonus" as more as a gameplay gimmick

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

I'm not concerned about score board or achivements. I just wanna be able to use my astro in his full potential, and it includes some dps. the class was obviously created to use cleric stance to perform some significant damage.
While i dps, i don't heal, it's as simple as that.
In the balanced instance, like wolf's den, if i would able to use cleric stance, the opposite healer could do it too. What's the problem ? it's balanced.

In the new front line, the team make-up are free. So anyway it's unbalanced. It's not like i was able to heal while dpsing & vice versa.
If a dps want to kill me he could, if he's at least as good as i'm with my heal. But i, too, would like to be able to kill him myself and not just running away to bring him get killed by 3 or 4 of my teamates. It's pvp not the "cowards meeting".

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Astros are actually the worse at dpsing in cleric stance from what I've seen. Also, scholar says hi with cleric stance.

You should never be dying to a 1:1 dps unless they full out use melee LB on you or they're quite literally using every single cooldown (and you were caught with your pants down).

Also have you played secure when it was new and allowed cleric stance? The most optimal teams consisted of all healers. Because they could quite literally, tank everything, stack heals and regen to keep themselves up and bring out dps comparable to a dps class.

You really think that 6 dps + 2 heal would be surpassed by 8 heal

https://31.media.tumblr.com/a005a319...89H1qz4rgp.gif

uuuh... you mean 6 bad dps +2 heal lose against those 8 healers ! oh yea...

If they are 8 healers, it means it's a premade. Or really a big twiste of fate !!
Whatever is the make-up of a premade, it will always surpass a pugs team. Since fast communications remove the balance in pvp.

I think a traditionnal team could beat a full healer team if both of them are well-organized.

I miss playing Secure mode as SCH with Cleric Stance, it was my favorite class to play. I remember this one user joining a match in progress where there were only four of us and they were berating me in chat the whole time for being in CS from the second they joined. They then insisted that we should be at Markets since we were team A even though it was just the two of us in the same place at the same time and the other GC had a full party of 8. I wish I could say who they were here without getting in trouble for name & shame.

Had a match where as a a Scholar in Cleric Stance I killed a Monk and Warrior/Paladin (can't remember which) from the same team who tried to jump me as I was in transit, got off my mount, flipped on Cleric Stance, killed them both and went on my way. I miss those days, hopefully those two players recall that too.

I don't mind if they make adjustments accordingly such as any regen effects automatically scale to your current mind stats (eos scales too etc). That way a healer will have to dedicate to the fact that they are going to be dps'ing and won't be some quasi healer with decent damage.

Even if they removed the attack damage modifier (while keeping the healing nerf modifier) but the move would still swap your MND and INT, I'd be happy. Still a large healing nerf, but you gain a smidge of attack power so you can actually 1v1 that sub-10% HP BRD instead of their Second Wind making a joke out of your efforts.

Right now there is very little incentive for me to play healer in Seize, other than to keep my premade happy and keep their kills rolling in for their achieves. I don't "mind" this, per se, but if no one needs healing at the time then I often feel like I'm not really "contributing". (I heavy-troll fleeing targets with Stella; that's about it.)

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

I think a traditionnal team could beat a full healer team if both of them are well-organized.

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During the time when Healers had access to Cleric Stance I regularly saw 6+ healer Adder teams hold off and even take points from 16 player 2 party groups in Secure.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

You really think that 6 dps + 2 heal would be surpassed by 8 heal

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Yes, these 6 DPS would be completly crushed.
Try to imagine a group of 8 WHM all standing on a point with 8 Medica II ticking and Regen all over the place, all of this while spaming Holy if someone get close so you'd be instantly stunned and killed.

The only way to break that formation was to use the group Mage LB3 (yes, LB were not shared at that time), while having a Sleep/Tri-bind running.

You were clearly not playing Secure by the time it came, or you'd have understood.

Imagine 6 black mage spamming aoe skill while the 8 whm are in cleric stance (very bad heals) and while 2 healer protect them.

There needs to be a middle ground or something which makes the stance easier to punish rather than just granting them the exact one, like make the lockout longer, or make a PvP specefic stance/passive that grants healers half of their mind as int permanently.

Right now I can still hit 800+ gravity/malefic 2 with full int gear and commanders set, and also heal 1.1k aspected barrier, I only loose 300 healing but gain a lot of damage so I can actually do poke damage, I'm changing gear sets atm depending on situations, and if they keep this stuff up I'll just see how much int I can gem on the Wolve's den gear. At this rate to me Cleric was more punishing .___. now I don't need to stance dance at all barely, mainly thanks to 150 ilvl not scaling well with stats

Guys there is another new point since 3.0 was released, all DPS classes got their new rotation/buffs and their DPS rose a lot, healers too got some DPS skill but now they are not able to DPS so heavily as a DPS even if they stay in CS all the time.

In my opinion FFXIV make healers able to help the party with their DPS, removing totally CS is really a lazy solution to a problem already partially solved (regene no more stackable, holynerf, lustrate with healing potency no more %).
I'm totally up for CS back, they just need to balance it as other skill was and if you fear the healers party, just put the rule that for any healer up to the 3rd, there is a progressive Mind nerf.
Example: if you have 4 healers, all your party has 10% Mind nerf, with 5 healers it will get -20% and so on.

But this and other example was already given a lot of time ago with no effect/reply ._.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

Guys there is another new point since 3.0 was released, all DPS classes got their new rotation/buffs and their DPS rose a lot, healers too got some DPS skill but now they are not able to DPS so heavily as a DPS even if they stay in CS all the time.

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Yayyy someone with a brain~

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Right now I can still hit 800+ gravity/malefic 2 with full int gear and commanders set, and also heal 1.1k aspected barrier, I only loose 300 healing but gain a lot of damage so I can actually do poke damage, I'm changing gear sets atm depending on situations, and if they keep this stuff up I'll just see how much int I can gem on the Wolve's den gear. At this rate to me Cleric was more punishing .___. now I don't need to stance dance at all barely, mainly thanks to 150 ilvl not scaling well with stat

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i suppose having a special pvp gear with a lot of intel is a solution, yea.
But you're still only at 50% of your potential damage. 800 dmg with malefic 2, with the cost in mana.... outch

I would be even up to a little INT implementation to pvp gear, like what they did in 2.x for giving a bit of accuracy to healers too, but it would be another lazy solution (even if more balanced that the actual remove CS only solution) because people could support a little during not healing time but without riquire any personal skill, instead if you have to manage CS and you pop it in the wrong moment as DPS I would be happy as hell to kill you.

Also, I don't know if it is only an Immortal Flame issue, but there is a huge Heales lack up to now in FL, any "give them a little DPS possibility" will make them a more attractive role.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

Imagine 6 black mage spamming aoe skill while the 8 whm are in cleric stance (very bad heals) and while 2 healer protect them.

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*sigh*
You have no idea of what happened.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. JP servers were absolutly full of teams like that.

In this video we can see 7 healers fighting a team of 3 differents dps (melee+distant)+3 healer.
And it was pre 3.0.

Other things they didn't killed any of their ennemies. Even if we can see that the player is using cleric stance.
They just arrived to the Flag before the others and in number superiority.

I don't see any problem of balance in this scenario.

Of course it's before 3.0, it was before the healer nerfs. That's what I'm talking about from the beginning.
I was just giving you the reason why they had to remove buff stacking and CS. But you still don't seem to understand.

Anyway, if you don't see why a team of "only" 7 healers standing on a point and who cannot be killed while being able to prevent anyone to get anywhere close to the point because of CS/Holy spam/Fluid Aura is a balance issue, I can't do anything for you.

To make it simple: no, you are not getting CS back. It caused balance issues and had to be removed, just like why SMN can't rez people in PvP.

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I can't do anything for you

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Just stay in this state of mind pleaz.

Come back when bad-faith will no longer make you reply with the same false arguments again & again.

A healer in cleric stance can't get the same dps as a Damage dealer of the same skill level (in astro if i do that i'm completely out of mp in no time = i can't heal). And a healer in cleric stance can only produce very bad heals. Since cleric stance can't be spam, there are no balance issue.

In other mmo, the heal and magical attack power depend on the same stat point. So in pvp, as a healer you don't even have to switch stance to be able to try to kick ass to a dps who decided to focus on you. You can just put your dot on this guy, and wait that he dies while healing yourself. If he's good he's still able to kill you if he didn't used his cd and stun in useless actions (=being good) like stunning to death one guy when you're 3 or 4 on him.
The fact that Healers was able to make some significant dps has never been considered as an issue for balance in those games (swtor for exemple).

You can't take in consideration the large number of damage dealer, in this specific game, who doesn't know at all their dps cycle, to determine the balance in pvp. Only the full potential of each class mean something.

In EVERY mmo there are video of premade doing pvp with a full team of this or that, and completely own the match. Like : "oh it's so impressive to destroy a pug team with your 8 synchronised doter ! You're so strong and gutsy guys..."
Whatever is the class this premade would have choose, they would have own the game... it's not an argument to nerf this class.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

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It was a premade because...guess what, it was literally the best pre-made you can get at the time. HE even mentioned most Japanese teams did this, and whoever was in the video should be thankful that it was only white mages and that scholars weren't thrown into the mix. Even if they didn't kill off the other team, do they really have to? The objectives in secure and seize are to hold locations that give you points. And the point remains is that they're not dying ,even with focus targeting becasue of just how much heals is going out combined with how much damage they can actually pump out at the same time.

What you don't seem to understand is that cleric stance is toggled . It's not like nocturnal or diurnal, you can toggle it on and off mid combat. No shit a healer in cleric stance only produces heals, but only a bad healer would actually try to heal in cleric stance. And on the other end on the spectrum, you seem to underestimate just how much dps a healer can actually pull in cleric stance ,especially in a PvP setting where it is ilvl synced.

A dps in this game realistically is not going to kill a healer in 1:1, especially not an nocturnal astro, not unless they straight up use an melee LB and even that's pushing it. You're literally grasping at straws when you bring up "if he's good you he can still kill you if he didn't use his stuns on useless actions." There's statements from people that have experienced thegame when it was at that state, and even bring up videos, and you're just with your own personal statement from other games (and this is FFXIV, not other games) and no experience to the shitfest known as secure when cleric stance was allowed.

At the time when cleric stance was allowed, a lvl 50 scholar's dps was very close to a summoner who's pet died. Its better to sacrifice a little loss in strength to gain 6 more heals AND raises (team of 8 healers compared to standard setup). The point of battlegrounds is to survive and hold the base. Killing comes secondary. What better way to survive then to have more healers that can do nearly the same amount of dps as well? If a dps can do 500 while the healer can do 400 plus keep anyone from dying (go try and kill someone while a nearby healer is healing him), its almost like anyone not playing a healer is playing half a class.

I would honestly prefer healers to not dps at all because they are taking kills from dps who could use the battle high/fever more efficiently, which will raise the chances for the team to win.

Also you underestimate the power of full healer groups. They were impossible to kill. Here's a vid of my group back then against a healer stacked group. We were stalemated for 5min. Against any non pug group that didn't know how to rotate knockbacks and keep 4 people in the flag, they would have taken the flag and be impossible to flip back for the rest of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9e5UYlUgg

That was with clerics nerf. Nowdays, healers have even better aoe dps, especially WHM. It would be completely imbalanced. And you have to consider that the more healers you have, the more divine seal raise you have. At a certain point, you can just loop divine seal raises.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I would honestly prefer healers to not dps at all because they are taking kills from dps who could use the battle high/fever more efficiently, which will raise the chances for the team to win.

Also you underestimate the power of full healer groups. They were impossible to kill. Here's a vid of my group back then against a healer stacked group. We were stalemated for 5min. Against any non pug group that didn't know how to rotate knockbacks and keep 4 people in the flag, they would have taken the flag and be impossible to flip back for the rest of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW9e5UYlUgg

That was with clerics nerf. Nowdays, healers have even better aoe dps, especially WHM. It would be completely imbalanced. And you have to consider that the more healers you have, the more divine seal raise you have. At a certain point, you can just loop divine seal raises.

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Do you mean Divine Breath? Divine Seal does shit-all for raises.

I don't know if Cleric Stance needs to be re-evaluated or not, but right now healers aren't that much fun in Seal Rock. I'm usually the only healer that is in the party and sometimes the alliance and I feel helpless to stop things sometimes, even when focusing just on healing. Obviously, something isn't balanced here because people just straight up refuse to play healers anymore and I feel that frustration too, I just like white mage, though. Maybe if it was easier to heal alliance members that could make playing a healer role more fun in pvp. (It would be nice if the ground abilities like Sacred Soil, Asylum, etc could effect alliance members. Medica, Succor, etc able to be used on alliance members in range and not just party members.)

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

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Fun is Subjective. The matter of fact is, if the alliance has absolutely no healers, then their chances of winning any pvp objectives is extremely slim. I've only evef won Seize rock with 1 healer (int he entire 24man alliance) was when we did not engage the enemy, had favorable node spawns throughout the fight, and the two GCs were hounding at each other's neck the entire time. Saying "it's not fun" is a very poor reason to make balancing changes, especially when said changes was initially what was breaking the game to begin with.

We play the game to have fun.
( pvp wise)
You play dps cuz its easy and fun.
You play tank cuz its even easier and fun.
You don't play healer cuz its not fun and u'd probably get 1 shotted by raw destruction lmao.

When ur team loses and ur like y r there no healers, ask urself this.
Y the hell didnt u change to healer that round?
1) i dont have any healer classes
2) im a bad healer pvp too scary
3) its not fun healing
4) no comment

Out of 24 players in an alliance NOT ONE PERSON SWAPS TO HEALER.

But sometimes ppl will swap and those ppl r the reason y u get to pvp.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

We play the game to have fun.
( pvp wise)
You play dps cuz its easy and fun.
You play tank cuz its even easier and fun.
You don't play healer cuz its not fun and u'd probably get 1 shotted by raw destruction lmao.

When ur team loses and ur like y r there no healers, ask urself this.
Y the hell didnt u change to healer that round?
1) i dont have any healer classes
2) im a bad healer pvp too scary
3) its not fun healing
4) no comment

Out of 24 players in an alliance NOT ONE PERSON SWAPS TO HEALER.

But sometimes ppl will swap and those ppl r the reason y u get to pvp.

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5) You have healer on another character!!!

That's my reason :D

I think a lot of the upset comes from a lack of rewards for healing.

"Yeah I healed you for a ton! and got no kills, and No achievements, and was the target of everybody instantly ..."

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

You don't play healer cuz its not fun and u'd probably get 1 shotted by raw destruction lmao.

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If you get 1-shotted by Raw Destruction you are geared up incorrectly for the role of healer in PvP.

In fact, everyone should make sure they have over 1k HP to at least avoid this scenario.

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When ur team loses and ur like y r there no healers, ask urself this.
Y the hell didnt u change to healer that round?

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This is my statement (not word-for word in this text-messaging language though) to everyone who isn't on healer and complains about lack of healers in the alliance being a factor to why we lose.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

This is my statement (not word-for word in this text-messaging language though) to everyone who isn't on healer and complains about lack of healers in the alliance being a factor to why we lose.

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It's still possible to win with 1 or no healers...You're just even at more mercy of RNG and the other two GCs to leave you alone. Without enough healers, you aren't winning any dogfights or clashes, unless you pick an oppertunistic one (the other GC is attacking the same one as you). And prey that you get at least 1 node per cycle within your reach. Of course if nodes start riding the cave team with 3 consecutive A spawns, or the other GC isn't being oppertunstic and is staying at their side, you're SOL.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's still possible to win with 1 or no healers...You're just even at more mercy of RNG and the other two GCs to leave you alone.

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It's possible to win without a single one of your team members doing any damage to the enemy. Not relevant to the conversation, but since we're talking absurdly low possibilities and specific situations now...

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Fun is Subjective...Saying "it's not fun" is a very poor reason to make balancing changes, especially when said changes was initially what was breaking the game to begin with.

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I don't know why you're quoting me for this. I didn't say "hey! Let's make healers broken!" "I don't know if Cleric Stance needs to be re-evaluated or not, but right now healers aren't that much fun in Seal Rock." Is what I said, but that's not the full extent of what I meant. Games are made to be fun. Fun is subjective, as you said, but it also has several different meanings in my post. Fun, or lack there of, could mean that it's not up to the same standards as other jobs are in pvp and that is why no one is playing it. No where did I say "bring back Cleric Stance!" or some other nonsense you seem to be accusing me of. Actually, what I suggested is what I think might make it more worthwhile to play a healer, which is what would encourage people to do it. I want balanced play for all jobs and alliances. I think extending the healing abilities (aoe) to alliance and not just restricted to the party they are in might be a more rewarding gameplay that healers are craving. I'm sure with proper balancing, it could be good. I think that's what me and other healers want.

If you find healing boring in pvp you're doing it wrong. After almost 600 matches mostly on whm, i can tell you there is always something to do as a healer.

Here are a few tips:

• Debuff enemies to prevent them from running away (Stone 1)
• Constantly disable enemies to drop their overall potency (Sleep/bind)
• Deny nodes with aoe (Misasma 2/holy/assize/aether burst/retrogradation/etc.)
• Heal the OTHER teams!!!! Dont just heal your own party.
• Bait people away
• Distract/waste people's cooldowns and LBs by super tanking with atunement/sacred prism/equanimity + cure bomb
• Knock people away when they deny or attempting to cap a node (fluid aura/aura blast)
• Remove debuffs from people!!!!
• Knock people back in your party's kill zone

If you are trying to 1v1 people on healer you're doing it wrong. The game is not designed for this.