I don't know if I'm just super unlucky or if it's a common thing, but I've found a lot of pvp is tainted. Shortly after the match starts, two of the GC's actively gang kill the remaining GC. It doesn't make sense. One of them inevitably loses, but it happens. I've seen matches where one GC basically threw the match to make another wins at the expense of the third. Three way pvp kinda encourages it, so I've been wondering if there's even a solution possible for this. One thought I had was maybe adding a 4th GC in ishgard, but I feel like that might cause other problems with que times.
Anyone have any ideas about this?
The GC Gank Spank. Ideas?
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08-03-2015, 07:18 AMFebrusThe GC Gank Spank. Ideas?
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08-03-2015, 04:14 PMGaiussenpai
The gank and spank really only happens when all the nodes spawn near one side such as the hill, the beach, the camp near north spawn and one in the south so inevitably that unlucky faction is going to sandwiched since most people don't defend the high point node or don't disperse and bait the two incoming teams into each other.
Although it seems to be really prevalent in my experience for adders lately :( -
08-03-2015, 04:45 PMCeveArthu
Adding a 4th GC wouldnt fix the fact that people will attack one GC more than another in a match, unless you make it so you have people locked into lanes to fight specific parties (which is also completely retarded, mind you) then this will always be a thing
Adding a 4th GC will make it worse lol -
08-03-2015, 04:58 PMFebrusOh, RNGsus totally has it out for one or more GC during node spawn points. Some of the Node spawning has been utterly ridiculous, and maybe that's the root of the problem. Maybe if the RNG was less ... (I don't want to use this word since it's supposedly random, but) biased, it might help even out the ganking? It's hard to say though. The random spawns certainly make things interesting, but it's not the only reason I've seen ganks. They do add to the ganking, but I have (and I'm not kidding here) seen GC gank spanks that were done out of pure spite. Adders and Mael completely ignoring each other in favour of pummeling the living crap out of the Flames, for example. There's probably no way to avoid it, though. Just the nature of pvp, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai
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08-03-2015, 05:05 PMFebrusProbably lol. I suppose a 3v1 gank spank would be the worst possible outcome XD. Still, sometimes the ganks are so bad that it would be nice if there was a way to level the playing field a little. Obviously we don't want civil war styled gameplay. Standing in straight lines and taking turns smacking each other around would be supremely dumb... but it would be cool if you could manipulate the map someway to change the game... like luring specific GC's with bonus point beacons or something. Unlikely, given pvp is the least loved facet of this game, but it would be cool if it had a bit more depth...Quote:
Originally Posted by CeveArthu
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08-03-2015, 05:53 PMCeveArthu
If you want a level playing field, then you want to try out actual PvP in wolves den
FL isnt PvP, a 3 party system (regardless of the GC restriction being in place or not) will never be balanced, uniform, or competitive -
08-03-2015, 06:04 PMDitto
What usually happens is, the losing GC realizes that they have nothing to lose, thus they choose a target, and harass them for the rest of the game, trying to push for at least second.
Prevents that GC from winning and it turns into a slaughter fest while the 3rd GC is out there with an ensured win.
It's just minimizing losses. -
08-03-2015, 10:25 PMRiceisNiceThis is usually the case with flames acting as that force on primal. They always seem to fixate on a GC for the entire fight once they pick one, regardless of if it'll get them 2nd or 3rd. Otherwise, when we're far behind in points, it's usually unsalvageable so we'd just go after flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
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08-04-2015, 07:04 AMFebrusDoes that even exist anymore? lol. I'm down for anything, really. The main reason I pvp is because the gear is cooler than the normal PVE gear, for glamours. Frontlines seems like the best way, but I noticed this tendency in the game mode, and I was curious if anyone else had/or had ideas about it. Honestly, i don't expect it to ever get "fixed," but it would be nice to see some adjustments to add depth and make the matches more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeveArthu
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08-04-2015, 07:08 AMFebrusThat's the other way around, in my case. I've actually seen matches (not exaggerating here) where adders have spent the entire match shoving flames off of every node they go for and not bothering to take it for themselves. Instead, they let the mael take them. It was mind blowing to watch. Mael won the match and the other two GC's barely broke 100 points each. I assume the "slaughterhouse" mentality plays into it a bit. A lot of people just go for kills and ignore objectives...Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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08-04-2015, 07:45 AMRiceisNiceI've seen my fair share of flames doing the exact same thing to adders, and leaving mael alone. Guess time of day could have an effect as well, or just a revenge-cycle going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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08-04-2015, 08:46 AMDitto
I'm on Primal as Flames, and our mentality is: "We're probably not winning this, so if it comes down to it, lets just ruin another GC's day"
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08-04-2015, 08:56 AMBeckettQuote:
Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai
These are both valid strategies, but what Ferbus is describing, and what I've seen as well, is one GC just throwing themselves at another, for no other reason than to make the third GC win. In one of my matches Adder started camping our landing, ignoring Mael and new tomeliths. They ended the match with less than 50 points. There was no reason for them to do this, except to allow Mael to win. It wasn't a desperate attempt for them to get 2nd, it was only to prevent us from getting 1st.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
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08-04-2015, 09:33 AMDittoThink stuff like that comes from pack mentality. If you have 1 premade who prioritizes spawn camping, assuming the rest of the alliance is under that "I'll follow whatever anyone tells me to" mentality, they'll all go do it too. The match gets thrown, but they at least probably got second place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckett
And lets be honest, with the way the current Exp loss bonus works, getting 2nd place consecutively is worth more than getting scattered 1st places. The exp for holding that chain going by not getting first adds up to a hell of a lot more overall. 450 Exp per 2nd place, and 300 Exp per 3rd place. As long as you don't get first place, you keep the chain running. -
08-04-2015, 01:42 PMRiceisNiceI honestly would not mind second place so much....if my goal wasn't an ADS mount. It can get utterly infuriating at times that I'm at the mercy of the third GC deciding whether or not my team can win the game regardless of how well we play, and one of the primary reasons why I hate 3-way objective maps so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
It usually doesn't come down to us having to take the "ruin a GC's day" option unless we're severely behind due to shoddy node spawns and being the north team -
08-04-2015, 04:19 PMFebrusThat's exactly what I was referring too, and I'm not sure what the bigger mystery is: 1. How the heck does it even happens when cross GC communication is impossible, or 2. how to stop it from completely ruining the match? I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one this has happened to, though. I used to wonder if I was just imagining it, or was somehow cursed by the game gods... jury is still out on that last bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckett
The straw that finally broke the camel's back, leading to me posting this, was one day in particular where it happened in multiple matches, the most notable being a 3 match streak where mael and adders ganked flames relentlessly, and we were at a complete loss for how to deal with it. -
08-04-2015, 04:29 PMFebrusI can see this happening more with premade parties. If there's something to be said for Frontlines it's that getting large groups of people to work together is very difficult. That being said, pack mentality definitely has something to do with it. The number one thing that is shouted out in alliance chat is "don't chase," but, inevitably, there is always a group who can't help themselves and forget to follow the objectives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
It is strange, though, to see a group consistently ignore objectives in favour of crushing a specific GC. Your point makes me wonder if an exp adjustment for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, or maybe some sort of notable exp bonuses for following the game mode instead of chasing the rabbit, might be a possible solution. It wouldn't put an end to ganks, obviously, but it might deter the Focus Target mentality that both I and Beckett have seen in matches. -
08-04-2015, 04:39 PMFebrusProblems like this make the ADS mount a distant dream when playing Frontlines. Wolves den is probably the best way to go about it, but exp bonuses are lower in there. So, unless you're already level capped, there's a still a downside.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I'm of the same mind as you. I've never seen my alliance openly state that they want to screw another GC for the sake of guaranteeing themselves 2nd place. The only time they're not interested in first is if we get that short bus special group who can't seem to wrap their minds around objective based game play, or if we ourselves have been screwed over by a gank or poor RNG for node spawns.
PVP specific goals (mounts or lvl restricted gear) are one of the reasons I have found the gank spank to be a problem. -
08-04-2015, 06:22 PMBuff_ArcherIt would probably be a good idea to always target Maelstrom just to be consistent. And then when you get in a situation where it's Flames and Maesltrom neck & neck, and Adders far behind, Adders would be more likely to focus Maelstrom and help Flames win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
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08-05-2015, 07:12 AMDittohttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ve-Match-Bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
It's usually adder they wind up targeting. Flames just have a weird dislike for adder for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff_Archer
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08-05-2015, 08:15 AMFebrusNice post. I like the idea, but I still think there should be a way to mitigate exp within the match. There seems to be no reward for actually doing your job or playing well. I've seen matches where there have been specific players who have carried the team to victory, catching nodes and bleeding themselves dry for the sake of defending them, but they don't get any more exp than people who run off and gank or chase the rabbit. This is wrong, and I thin it contributes to the problem of gank spanks. There should be some kind of exp bonuses for following mission objectives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
As for the Adders dislike, I find that teams tend to have it out for whatever team got in their hair the most in the previous match lol. I've been in back to back matches that had a lot of the same players, and the previous loss to one GC or another prompted them openly discriminate against that GC. -
08-05-2015, 10:35 PMBuff_ArcherThat might explain why the Flamee have such a consistently low win rate... in pretty much every match I'm in as an Adder- if you disregard all the insults going back and forth in Alliance chat (I've been guilty of this too)- what's left is people trying to strategize pretty much the entire match. Mainly thinking about how many points we have, how many points the other teams have, and what our best plays are to not lose. I know a few people who have both Adders and Flames characters and they've been told us how in previous matches that day their team/alliance decided just to troll adders and hand the match to Maelstrom and so it's mystifying to hear people in Flames complain about not having their ADS mount. That kind of strategy backfires because the natural inclination of Adders is to focus the competition it loses to the most- which would be Maelstrom- and left alone that inclination would continue when it's Maelstrom and Flames in the lead and Adders hopelessly in 3rd. So being the team we lose to less, the only thing that's going to have Adders trying to throw the game in Maelstrom's favor would be revenge on Flames for doing the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I think next time I lose a match to Maelstrom because of a Flames Zerg that was just for the obvious purpose of costing the match- I'll macro something to alliance chat after that for when we're way behind that says 'OK we've lost, make sure the Flames don't win, because it's what they do to us!'. -
08-06-2015, 07:19 AMFebrusI have never once seen someone shout out "Kill the adders!" in the chat box lol, nor have I had a team that wanted to settle for 2nd. Usually the Chat box is full of people trying to keep the team together (zerging, as you said), and telling them to push the GC that has the most points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff_Archer
From what I've seen, Adders have been the most guilty of throwing matches. The worst match I ever saw had Adders come in 3rd because they didn't even try for nodes, just killing Flames. I saw another PvP thread about it being a problem in that GC.
What I meant by GC discrimination usually comes when 1st nodes spawn. The team tends to charge the GC that screwed them the hardest in the previous match. After that 1st set of Nodes, it usually comes down to people shouting "Don't Chase!" to the tards in the group who forget it's not slaughter, and trying to keep nodes out of the hands of whoever is leading in 1st. -
08-06-2015, 07:25 AMFebrusIt could very well be revenge cycling. It's difficult to nail down the cause, though, because the alliances are made up of players from various worlds. The mentality of one GC in one world might be totally different from that of the same GC in another world. I think the biggest factor comes in when people continue to chase. usually, with the flames, I find that they get closest to ganking another GC when they just get wrapped up in the killing and keep on chasing. They forget objectives and run relentlessly after whichever GC is in front of them. It's one of the reasons I think the game should offer exp bonuses for following objectives... maybe fighting within a certain distance of a node, for example. I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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08-06-2015, 07:32 AMRiceisNiceI made a big topic about it earlier and how it's similar to the concept of Prisoners Dillemma. It could be revenge or its just settling for second place. I've gotten my fair share of games where flames ignore all reason and straight up give nodes to mael, as well as games that we could've both go after mael in caves and make a comeback. But instead most of the time, we end up settling for 2nd/3rd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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08-06-2015, 08:12 AMFebrusI'm not sure. I've seen it happen to every single GC, but I think saying their aiming for 2nd is giving them too much credit. In my experience, losing 1st usually boils down to one thing: tunnel vision. People seem to just stop thinking and keep charging after the guy who's health bar is below 50%. Before you know it, everyone forgot the objective except for the few who are screaming: "Don't Chase!" No matter which GC starts it, the result is the same. Eventually, it all just turns into a giant gank spank.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
One good thing out of it is that node RNG makes winning a complete toss of the coin, but, in an objective based match, I don't feel like that should be the case. It would be great if there was a way to encourage people to avoid playing dumb and leaving the free for all style gameplay for a free for all style game mode. -
08-06-2015, 08:49 AMRiceisNice
[QUOTE=Februs;3220219].../QUOTE]
You lose your first placing as well if you can't stay on top of nodes or get overrun by both GCs due to node placements (like having all four spawn in cave, or getting the two choke points at north camp). You can't stay defensive the entire game, espesically if you're only getting one node per quad spawn. After the 10 minute mark and only three start spawning, you'd need to force something and find more points through kills, otherwise you can.l behind due to node rank differences. -
08-06-2015, 10:48 AMDittoMany, maaaaaaany people do not seem to understand this. Especially those who think they qualify to lead the alliance to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Even when 1 GC is closing in on 700+ points, second GC isn't that far behind, and your GC is just chilling out back where at 500, if even, they continue to tell people to stick to capping and defending, like they still have everything to lose. Everyone in this Frontlines is so afraid to get their feet wet in battle it's just ridiculous. I tell them all the time that we need to camp points from the weaker GC to at least ensure we get second, minimize losses. But nope, they continue to call out nodes and the entire group follows, while we stay in 3rd the entire time.
They act as if we still have everything to lose by getting their feet wet and taking points by force. -
08-07-2015, 05:48 PMFebrusTotally agree with you here. It's frustrating when a group only yells "Defense!" Here's the thing though: attacking and chasing are totally different. Going on the offensive is very good, but being led by the nose, tempted by kills, and following around enemies that aren't even guarding a node, is very bad. You're just bleeding points, and, worse yet, the team gets spread thin and is unable to converge on new nodes.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Attacking is definitely necessary, but I find a lot of teams don't know how to attack properly. 1. Going offensive does not mean chasing opponents that get you nothing. 2. You DO NOT have to attack the most heavily defended node. Work smart not hard. And 3. for the love of god, if you're going to attack, attack in force! I can't stand it when I see the GC split up and getting nothing. -
08-07-2015, 05:55 PMFebrusI found people shouting "DEFENSE!" over and over was a big problem when I started back up in seize, but it's starting to get a little better. Today, my GC was way more aggressive. That's a good thing, but now I'm faced with a different problem: the people who don't like to work as a team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditto
I find the best method to attacking is to stick together. People don't seem to get that their GC IS AN ARMY. If you work as one, you gain more with much less effort. Some people just run off and do their own thing, or, again, focus solely on the killing instead of the objective. It's difficult to get the entire group to follow the plan of attack. Worst case scenario is when I get people who are actively opposed to working as a team and try to convince the others that simply killing the enemy will somehow net them winning points, despite the fact that's not how Seize works.