Second Tank Stance for Dark Knight:

I would like a second stance for Dark Knight to make it more unique with tanks.

To make room for this spell, I would combine Unleash/Abyssal Drain.

I would change Carve and Spit into the level 56 ability.

This leaves room for a new level 60 ability.

Abyssal Drain level 8.
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100 to target and enemies near it.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Dark Arts Effect: Absorbs 100% of damage dealt as HP.
Dark Arts fades upon execution.
(Mana however is reduced to be the same cost as Unleash, as well as the same potency.)

Carve and Spit level 56
Exactly the same ability as before. Just level 56 instead of 60.

Requital level 60.
HP is slowly drained while lowering damage received by 25% and increasing enmity. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot stack with Grit.
Costs health to cast instead of mana.
(Soul Eater's Healing component also works with Vengeance!)
(Whilst in Vengeance, Blood Weapon restores 10% health instead of mana.)

It is a more offensive version of Grit but comes with a price. This turns Dark Knight into even more of a resource management class.

Because bad tanks aren't bad enough?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because bad tanks aren't bad enough?

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Its a middle ground between the warrior stances a bit. A play-style I think fits Dark's well. Dark Knight is an advanced class.

Just...stop we've had enough of these threads Drks are fine the way they are they are the middle ground of tanks but far from useless. We don't need more of these "change their abilities to make them amazing" they literally just need a small tweak in some way not a huge overhaul or "new stance". Honestly i'm tanking all the content just fine no complaints whatsoever and i'm enjoying it as a Drk. Just drop it already i've seen too much want from all these forums.

... Not sure I'm seeing the point of this, either. Isn't the point of tanking to not die?

I guess it would be okay as an offtank, but... Eh, not feeling it.

There really isn't a point to this. A self destroying tank stance doesn't even make sense to begin with. The DRK's stance is just fine as is. If anything give Grit an increased chance to parry while it's active.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

There really isn't a point to this. A self destroying tank stance doesn't even make sense to begin with. The DRK's stance is just fine as is. If anything give Grit an increased chance to parry while it's active.

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People "tank" in Deliverance. This is a bit safer then that, just a little different, it also does fit a bit. Depending on what your fighting of course. =)

This sounds utterly pointless.

Drk's could really use an actual stance designed around dealing damage, just as both other tanks have. (Same goes for a 1200 potency heal)

Lets not just leave them excluded from the new tank metas for whatever reason now. A second tank stance however, idk about.

What's vengeful about slowly dying while in a tank stance? A move that traded health for mana would be far more useful. Actually, nix that: Tanks are supposed to protect the party, not freak out the healers. Trading health for anything would be dumb.

the basic framework of the concept is nice (before you look at the fact that soul-eaters sustain is total crap), but a stance that drops your hp as a tank isn't a good idea at all. especially at level 60.

i do agree that abyssal drain needs to be merged with unleash though (unnecessary skill bloat is unnecessary.)...

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

the basic framework of the concept is nice (before you look at the fact that soul-eaters sustain is total crap), but a stance that drops your hp as a tank isn't a good idea at all. especially at level 60.

i do agree that abyssal drain needs to be merged with unleash though (unnecessary skill bloat is unnecessary.)...

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Yes, that is why there are two stances and not one. I didn't just want to copy the Paladin/Warrior. The stance IS a more offensive version of the tank stances. As it removes the damage penalty, but adds another one in its place.

The damage penalty does make you heal more.

It also allows you to use Blood Weapon, which you cannot do in Grit.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

What's vengeful about slowly dying while in a tank stance? A move that traded health for mana would be far more useful. Actually, nix that: Tanks are supposed to protect the party, not freak out the healers. Trading health for anything would be dumb.

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The -20% damage penalty is much worse then many realize. It takes how much you have then divides it by 1/5. So if I have lots of critical chance and Darkside and other things..Mmm. It takes the full amount of your potential damage and sheds it off.

noun
1.
infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge:
But have you the right to vengeance?
2.
an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble:
to take one's vengeance.
3.
the desire for revenge:
a man full of vengeance.
4.
Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5.
Obsolete. curse; imprecation.

Idioms
6.
with a vengeance,
with force or violence.
greatly; extremely.
to an unreasonable, excessive, or surprising degree:

It fits well with its many definitions. You take yourself to an unreasonable degree just to harm your opponent. You will hurt yourself just to win.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

it's a gimmicky Defensive stance that just buffs defense and costs hp to use, nothing else.

no, it doesn't. it raises our EHP, but it does not heal us more. we gain a larger benefit from it because of the damage reduction, but it does not increase.



i can use it in off grit already, and have the healers actually be able to heal me. our own defensive cooldowns provide enough mitigation already outside of grit. what we need is a lower cost grit (that possibly is off GCD.)

I would never use this skill as a main tank (my hp would melt), and i would probably not use this skill as an offtank (shoehorns me into using soul-eater, which does less damage than delirium and doesn't heal me for enough outside of dark arts, which now costs hp and thus would counteract any healing.) with dark side up, hp drain increases more (unless dark side is an exception, which would make us a threefold resource management class! hp, mp, and tp!).

even then bloodweapon regen stated would be pretty useless. blood weapon only lasts 15 seconds, and has a 40 second cd. That's about 10 GCDs because of skilspeed. my auto attack has a 2.96 delay, so that's another 5 hits. and then i probably would be spamming dark arts unless i needed to use C&S for another reason and for soul-eater heals, and i can get 3 dark arts (hp loss! may be more, i don't remember how much dark arts is boosted by blood weapon) per a blood weapon GCD. with low blow and reprisal (provided i am mindless enough to actually use this as a mt) that's 200% of my hp healed (not including soul eater heals, which only heal me for around 800-1k in dps gear when not arted), and i can only heal that much once every few minutes (clipping C&S and bloodweapon cds). a healer's average cure heals me for around 3k (possibly more, i focus more on my own actions when i put my faith in a healer) per a gcd.


lifesteal tanks are either complete crap, or completely OP. with access to an actual healer cut off completely, this is bad. see WAR pre 2.1, minus a healer.

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I can tell you have never played a Shadowknight before. The only game that got the class right, which is where I am getting it from. =)

You are killing the mob faster and generating more aggro due to not having Grit's damage penalty. Since you have access to Blood Weapon from your example, it would mean you could Dark Arts Soul Eater more, and since you do not have the damage penalty it would heal for more.

I also see you fail to realize that you would have 2 tank stances. You can use Grit and be like you were before. Grit isn't going anywhere, Vengeance just adds a new style of more reckless play. Like Deliverance does, except a bit safer.

It would still be a resource management tank and not a lifetap tank however.

1 Lifetap, a "Lifetap" tank does not make. Which is why I had an idea that vengeance would also make Blood Pact/Blood Weapon restore HP and MP, or just HP. Thus changing the way the class works slightly and introducing new mechanics.

It is meant to give your healers a bit more work in exchange for some power. Which isn't hard to do if you are a proper healer. The short increase in damage reduction also helps a bit more with "spike" damage.

Thus, why its a good level 60 ability. Its risky and changes the class. However, the risk CAN be overcome if played well and knowing your class. Which is why it fits the max ability.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

i can use it in off grit already

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At a huge risk to your threat and aggro and mana. You also spike more, which is hardly a thing healers like. Do you play a healer yourself in the higher levels? Spike is way worse damage to mitigate and heal then damage over time.

I disagree, if Grit had no cost then it would kill the style of play and make DRK too similar to the other tanks.

Gimmicky would require it would not work. When I have for fact healed Tanks through poisons. It "DOES" work, it isn't unmanageable and I would gladly take that in certain situations then having my tank one shot by spike damage.

I play a tank and healer, so I have an understanding of both sides of the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Unlike everyone else. I see the point to this and think that it's pretty op and hope they don't put it into the game. More so if you can use darkside with it.

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Unfortunately to most, it is a badly designed underpowered poor skill. I am glad someone can see how much it can benefit however. =)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yes, that is why there are two stances and not one. I didn't just want to copy the Paladin/Warrior. The stance IS a more offensive version of the tank stances. As it removes the damage penalty, but adds another one in its place.

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it's a gimmicky Defensive stance that just buffs defense and costs hp to use, nothing else.

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The damage penalty does make you heal more.

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no, it doesn't. it raises our EHP, but it does not heal us more. we gain a larger benefit from it because of the damage reduction, but it does not increase.

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It also allows you to use Blood Weapon, which you cannot do in Grit.

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i can use it in off grit already, and have the healers actually be able to heal me. our own defensive cooldowns provide enough mitigation already outside of grit. what we need is a lower cost grit (that possibly is off GCD.)

I would never use this skill as a main tank (my hp would melt), and i would probably not use this skill as an offtank (shoehorns me into using soul-eater, which does less damage than delirium and doesn't heal me for enough outside of dark arts, which now costs hp and thus would counteract any healing.) with dark side up, hp drain increases more (unless dark side is an exception, which would make us a threefold resource management class! hp, mp, and tp!).

even then bloodweapon regen stated would be pretty useless. blood weapon only lasts 15 seconds, and has a 40 second cd. That's about 10 GCDs because of skilspeed. my auto attack has a 2.96 delay, so that's another 5 hits. and then i probably would be spamming dark arts unless i needed to use C&S for another reason and for soul-eater heals, and i can get 3 dark arts (may be more, i don't remember how much dark arts is boosted by blood weapon) per a blood weapon GCD. with low blow and reprisal (provided i am mindless enough to actually use this as a mt) that's 200% of my hp healed (not including soul eater heals, which only heal me for around 800-1k in dps gear when not arted), and i can only heal that much once every few minutes (clipping C&S and bloodweapon cds). a healer's average cure heals me for around 3k (possibly more, i focus more on my own actions when i put my faith in a healer) per a gcd.


lifesteal tanks are either complete crap, or completely OP. with access to an actual healer cut off completely, this is bad. see WAR pre 2.1, minus a healer.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I can tell you have never played a Shadowknight before. The only game that got the class right, which is where I am getting it from. =)

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one attempt out of many does not justify a design.

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You are killing the mob faster and generating more aggro due to not having Grit's damage penalty. Since you have access to Blood Weapon from your example, it would mean you could Dark Arts Soul Eater more, and since you do not have the damage penalty it would heal for more.

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drk has fine aggro generation already, and 20% damage loss equates to about 300-400 damage on a DA'd soul eater at my current gear level.

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I also see you fail to realize that you would have 2 tank stances. You can use Grit and be like you were before. Grit isn't going anywhere, Vengeance just adds a new style of more reckless play. Like Deliverance does, except a bit safer.

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i did not. i just would flat out not use this skill when tanking, and i would use neither unless i needed grit when offtanking.
-you can still be healed by the healer in deliverance.
-deliverance actually increases your damage and gives WAR access to hard hitting abilities.
-nothing about not being healed by an actual healer is safe when your self-healing ability is restricted by CDs and GCDS, far from it.

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It would still be a resource management tank and not a lifetap tank however.

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in "vengance" (a name already used by a WAR skill), it is a lifetap tank. your healer can't heal you, and your MP get's over filled with more mp than you can use anyway if they even bother trying (because it isn't even a problem keeping darkside up in most encounters already this would just complicate it by forcing you to use DA when it's available always to stay alive), and your restricted to only healing using soul eater when you don't have blood weapon up (preventing you from even making use of your ridiculous incoming mana anyway because DA is on a 5 second CD.) (which is moot when we bottom out on tp because we need to spam blood weapon to even have a chance at staying alive in the stance, and stance dancing is moot because it costs a gcd to change to grit or a second to take off this skill probably).

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1 Lifetap, a "Lifetap" tank does not make. Which is why I had an idea that vengeance would also make Blood Pact/Blood Weapon restore HP and MP, or just HP. Thus changing the way the class works slightly and introducing new mechanics.

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exactly what we don't need. we already manage two resources: MP, and TP.

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It is meant to give your healers a bit more work in exchange for some power. Which isn't hard to do if you are a proper healer.

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A proper healer would look at the foolish tank trying to tank in this stance and scream at him. and this gives us no power so to speak. dark side gives us power. Deliverance gives us power. this gives us a tank stance mitigation, drains our HP, and takes traditional healing away as a cost.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I disagree, if Grit had no cost then it would kill the style of play and make DRK too similar to the other tanks.

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lower=/=remove.

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Gimmicky would require it would not work. When I have for fact healed Tanks through poisons. It "DOES" work, it isn't unmanageable and I would gladly take that in certain situations then having my tank one shot by spike damage.

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so you would subject a tank to a permanent poison and force them to heal themselves through it, only providing him resources that he can only use effectively every 3 gcds unless bloodweapon is up and he's not tp starved? yeah, good plan.

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I play a tank and healer, so I have an understanding of both sides of the battlefield.

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i've played a tank since 2.0 early access. and i had a healer leveled to 50 well before 3.0 hit.

there's a time to defensively tank, and there's a time to go on the offensive.

forgot one!

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At a huge risk to your threat and aggro and mana.

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DRK has zero problems with threat. 1-2 DA'ed power slashes has held hate for me throughout entire fights. bloodweapon and bloodprice along with delerium combo circumvent mana drain.

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You also spike more, which is hardly a thing healers like. Do you play a healer yourself in the higher levels? Spike is way worse damage to mitigate and heal then damage over time.

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if your not using defensive CDS when off grit in a pre-savage dungeon: your bad, and you should feel bad.

Seems like this is meant to fit the same niche that they precisely did not want to include.

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RPGamer: In the history of the Final Fantasy series the Dark Knight job has typically been more of a DPS job…

Yoshida: No! (Editor’s note: Yoshida disagreed with the assessment of DRK being a DPS class. Everyone laughed)

RPGamer: It’s typically been a DPS class sacrificing HP for damage. How is that being adapted into more of a tank class?

Yoshida: You may have seen this during the presentation but the Dark Knight will be using his MP to draw the power of darkness. But it’s not just a simple using of your MP to execute your actions but you draw from that power of darkness and you can either use it for an attack or use it to boost your defense and you’ll be strategizing on maintaining that power of darkness and managing your MP so it’s a very unique style of play in the tank role. That concept of sacrificing in your HP in order to raise your attack power we’re still considering whether or not to include that sort of action in the Dark Knight skill set. Of course since it is a tank role the Dark Knight you don’t want to go out there sacrificing your HP to raise your damage! No sacrifice! It won’t be the main element of how Dark Knight fights. We do understand that’s a very typical way that Dark Knight has appeared within the Final Fantasy series. We’re still considering whether or not to keep an element of that in the game or not. With this introduction of the Dark Knight into Heavensward we are establishing a new Dark Knight of Final Fantasy and he’s fairly cool so we really recommend you to try him out. You won’t have a scythe to fight, don’t worry.

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Source

They don't want tanks to do this.
If they include life sacrificing, it'll probably be in some one-off cooldown to gain defense.

It's not going to be a full offensive stance.
There are might still be ways to include (very minor) HP draining abilities, but it shouldn't be to gain offensive power and it should not affect our healers in any reasonable way.

I'd rather they just flip it and make Lifesteal more significant to our kit.

Unlike everyone else. I see the point to this and think that it's pretty op and hope they don't put it into the game. More so if you can use darkside with it.

^ This.

It's completely OP. I like the idea a lot. I would love to have that kind of risky gameplay. BUT a tank stance without damage penalty and the power to use BW even with it costing HP would be monstrously OP in good hands. And I don't see that happening at all, because they already said that they didn't want to make a tank consume his own HP.

What DRK truly needs is only more utility.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

^ This.

It's completely OP. I like the idea a lot. I would love to have that kind of risky gameplay. BUT a tank stance without damage penalty and the power to use BW even with it costing HP would be monstrously OP in good hands. And I don't see that happening at all, because they already said that they didn't want to make a tank consume his own HP.

What DRK truly needs is only more utility.

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If its completely overpowered. Why are other people saying it .. is stupid and not conceptual?

That is one of the reasons I made it more powerful. It was less damage reduction. Lol.

I just want different play-styles to tanks. Each tank feels like its the same class with a few different weapons and skill-sets. Unlike the DPS classes which are very unique.

Class is fine just need very minor adjusting but the core root of it works.

A few things to improve to the dark knight
1) add to sole survivor a dark arts effect where the move heals you for 1200 potency like the warrior's equilibrium
2) increase abyssal drain to 150 potency
3) allow blood weapon to be used in grit so that more mp can be recovered so that the 400 potency Soul Eater can be used more often to heal yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sir-Meliodas

A few things to improve to the dark knight
1) add to sole survivor a dark arts effect where the move heals you for 1200 potency like the warrior's equilibrium
2) increase abyssal drain to 150 potency
3) allow blood weapon to be used in grit so that more mp can be recovered so that the 400 potency Soul Eater can be used more often to heal yourself.

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The only thing you've mentioned that would help drk in relevant content is number 3 and it's benefit wouldn't really wouldn't be so that SE could be used to heal yourself but to more or less push DRK further towards the top DPS of the three tanks while in it's tanking stance. Which the OP's new design ability would essentially do. Soul Eatter's heal helps mitigate a bit of damage but is more or less spammed not due to it's healing factor, but the fact it's their highest potency attack under the effect of DA.

The other two would best be served in dungeons and current Alexander raids, but if (when) content starts going away from multiple adds Sole Survivor and Abyssal drain will become basically worthless. If anything SE needs to change carve and spit (w/e it's called) to restore more MP or deal more damage outside of DA, readjust delirium blade or w/e (the -10% int) to something that can stack with a MNK's, and get rid of the evasion on Dark Dance when using DA with it and instead increase their parry rate further. Carve and Spit seems like it could be a better MP restoration tool. D.blade could be better to further increase DRK's prescience as a magical tank. If Dark dance further increased parry instead of evasion then it would work better with Low blow and reprisal. One is a direct damage increase and the other can be used to place the much needed debuff up at certain times, making it less RNG. Though still RNG...=/

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Drk's could really use an actual stance designed around dealing damage, just as both other tanks have. (Same goes for a 1200 potency heal)

Lets not just leave them excluded from the new tank metas for whatever reason now. A second tank stance however, idk about.

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I had a good laugh at this. They're already included. Darkside is effectively your dps stance. Yes, you're paying a price in MP to use it, but it can be used by itself, or in coexistence with Grit (full-time I might add). This cuts down on the damage output reduction that comes with the damage mitigation stances. Sword Oath cannot coexist with Shield Oath, nor can Defiance and Deliverance coexist. Sure, they can be swapped during a fight, but a WAR and PLD won't be offsetting the reduced damage output while they're in their respective mitigation stances. Who else but a DRK can boast the ability to do this deed?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If its completely overpowered. Why are other people saying it .. is stupid and not conceptual?

That is one of the reasons I made it more powerful. It was less damage reduction. Lol.

I just want different play-styles to tanks. Each tank feels like its the same class with a few different weapons and skill-sets. Unlike the DPS classes which are very unique.

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I smell what you're stepping in, and I don't begrudge you your desire, but I'm nearly certain this is a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by VanEinstein

I had a good laugh at this. They're already included. Darkside is effectively your dps stance. Yes, you're paying a price in MP to use it, but it can be used by itself, or in coexistence with Grit (full-time I might add). This cuts down on the damage output reduction that comes with the damage mitigation stances. Sword Oath cannot coexist with Shield Oath, nor can Defiance and Deliverance coexist. Sure, they can be swapped during a fight, but a WAR and PLD won't be offsetting the reduced damage output while they're in their respective mitigation stances. Who else but a DRK can boast the ability to do this deed?

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Darkside is not a DPS stance. It's like a Maim equivalent. Defiance and Deliverance cannot coexist precisely because WARs can keep Maim up 100% of the time which increases their damage by 20%. DRK has a Maim equivalent but no DPS stance. It's like pre-3.0 WAR when their DPS stance was just no-Defiance.

drk wont ever get a hp drain skill. yoschida himself said this over 3 months ago when asked about it. he said he didnt want a TANK to have a constant hp drain ability since it hinders the jobs primary function inside a group.

so forget about your idea for now.

they should rather fix drk issus now. but well probaly dont see any balance changes until 3.1 is released which is around 2 months or more form now. so for now its sadly : deal with it.

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Originally Posted by VanEinstein

I had a good laugh at this. They're already included. Darkside is effectively your dps stance. Yes, you're paying a price in MP to use it, but it can be used by itself, or in coexistence with Grit (full-time I might add). This cuts down on the damage output reduction that comes with the damage mitigation stances. Sword Oath cannot coexist with Shield Oath, nor can Defiance and Deliverance coexist. Sure, they can be swapped during a fight, but a WAR and PLD won't be offsetting the reduced damage output while they're in their respective mitigation stances. Who else but a DRK can boast the ability to do this deed?

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Darkside is effectively their Fight or Flight or maim.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Darkside is not a DPS stance. It's like a Maim equivalent. Defiance and Deliverance cannot coexist precisely because WARs can keep Maim up 100% of the time which increases their damage by 20%. DRK has a Maim equivalent but no DPS stance. It's like pre-3.0 WAR when their DPS stance was just no-Defiance.

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Fair enough. I concede the point. It appears I've been taking Maims presence for granted.

Dark Knights have their dps stance tied into their raw potencies which are high and away the best of all tanks. Dark side plus soil eater is 100 potency shy of fell cleave and is far more spammabme given in dps stance you have near infinite mana from blood weapon. You do more damage out of grit than a paladin does in sword oath, and just behind warriors in their offense stance. This is by design; an extra buff like deliverance would come with potency nerfs. Do the math. Compare your potency to paladin or warrior and you'll see this buff you want is already their. War dps combo is 150,200,280. Drk? 150,250,280 for delirium or 150,250,400 with da. Fracture is 300 over thirty for 80 tp. Scourge is 500 over thirty for sixty. This comes up in many other places to boot, even your ranged pull is 150 vs paladin and warriors 120.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

soil eater

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