The Horrors of Grinding Sohm Al as a tank

So, on my alternate character, I have been grinding Sohm Al for the gaelikitten minion.

The first time I did it, things went okay. I kept DCing because my router is a piece of crap, but my team mates were patient. Cleared dungeon. No gaelikitten.
The second time, I had this WHM and SMN duo who kept attacking the targets that I wasn't attacking, thus making it very difficult to maintain aggro. The BRD didn't even say a word. At one point, I thought it was he who was attacking the off targets, and called him on it, but then the SMN admitted to it. I apologized. Not a word of response. Not a word in general. Then the SMN DC'd, and we got another BRD as a replacement. On the last fight, the WHM kept standing in front of the dragon. We wiped about 3 times, before the WHM told me to pull the dragon to the edge so she wouldn't have to move around so much in order to get out of the AoE. Okay. Can do. But seriously, she shouldn't have been standing in front of the dragon in the first place. Dungeon cleared (finally). No gaelikitten.
Third run went smoothly. Everyone did what they were supposed to. Dungeon cleared. No gaelikitten.
Fourth run was awful. We had a new BLM, a veteran WHM, and a know-it-all BLM. First off, we get to the first boss. I explained mechs to the new BLM. Veteran BLM corrects me, saying "No. Just burn boss. Don't do mechs". Okay. That just makes it harder on the healer. I don't care if you can do a bajillion DPS/second. If you ignore the bees, the giant plant is going to do an AoE that takes about half of everyone's health. More work for the healer.
Then, in the next section, I was pulling the mobs away from the Pyro and Cryo dragons, so that we wouldn't have to deal with the glacier sprites. Or we wouldn't have if the BLMs didn't stand so far up the path as to draw aggro from the hordes of glacier sprites.
2nd boss went okay. No problems.
Last boss. BLM wouldn't attack the same wing that I was attacking, so I switched wings. And then the BLM started attacking the other wing.
Dungeon cleared. No gaelikitten. (Must be a really rare drop)

Anyone else having tanking horror stories in Sohm Al?

Best to ignore bees, it's really just 1 medica for a WHM (maybe 2 Helios for AST), no big deal. As for the way you choose to do your pulls, it can be disorienting for DPS who were surprised by it.

Not meaning to argue with you, it's definitely frustrating when you're the tank and party members are trying to do things differently from the way you've set up the pull for. And if someone wants to do a boss a certain way then they should be explaining the fights to the newbies instead of leaving it to someone else--being undecided on mechanics often causes more wipes than picking method Z over method X or vice versa. A more appropriate approach for the BLM would have been to chime in explaining why bees can be ignored and seeing if people are cool with that.

In any case, your runs don't sound that bad. The SMN should be aggroing everything because it's an important part of their dps , and if you aren't able to manage all the enemies you need to mark them (assuming you weren't marking) though a lot of DPS at that level would probably ignore your marks anyways, so I guess there's often no winning there. For the record though it is possible to hold all targets as a PLD no matter what's being attacked, except in maybe rare (I've never seen it) situations where 2 very capable DPS are determined to pull from you and go all out on separate targets... Again not meaning to hate on you XD, it's DF and players should respect the fact that there will be players of all different levels of ability and experience.

Thanks for the feedback.

I actually was marking, but the DPS were ignoring it. lol

DPS trying to agro things off of you? Tell me something new.

It's a DPS thing. They WANT to steal agro from you because it would make them feel powerful and STWONG.

In that case, the best way to do it is to make sure that when the DPS does take agro off of you, make sure it's either:

a) at the edge of death
b) stunned

So when they do get agro, you could be sure that they won't get damaged much. If they complain about it, then they can continue to do it. In light of positive side of things, more DPS = faster dead things. And no one can agro dead things.

When I was an unsynced PLD, Sohm Al was a bad dream if there's a DRG around. BLM's I can handle, they just aoe most of the time so a flash spam can handle things. But a DRG will probably take agro off of me if I don't focus on his target.

Well, the important point is if you have trouble maintaining agro, your best bet is to kill things as fast as you can and let the DPS do their thing.

One big issue with Heavensward is that a lot of players are viewing it as progression content, where they assume "by this point in the game people should [insert remark here]", but it's not. We're running with players who are brand new to their role, or brand new to the game. I recently healed a DRK through Dusk Vigil and it was his first time tanking a dungeon (he didn't do too bad for having vendor-bought gear). And there are players who started a few months ago (maybe less) and are currently more geared than I am.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

One big issue with Heavensward is that a lot of players are viewing it as progression content, where they assume "by this point in the game people should [insert remark here]", but it's not. We're running with players who are brand new to their role, or brand new to the game.

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I wish everyone understood this.

When a dps is able to pull agro from you, they'll get achievement, that's why they do that.

It shouldnt be really hard to maintain agro actually in sohm al, and i never mark mobs, I let the dps do their things, you just have to know which mob to single target enmity focus. For a SMN, spam ur aoe enmity 4-5 times, then rotate single target enmity to every mob you've pulled. If it's still hard, then I think you need to upgrade your weapon. Good luck with ur farming, gaelikitten is a cute minion, I wish I have it myself.

ABsolutely right. I just started tanking at the beginning of the summer, so yeah. I'm not as high geared as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Julienne

...who kept attacking the targets that I wasn't attacking, thus making it very difficult to maintain aggro...
...BLM wouldn't attack the same wing that I was attacking...

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Being that you are newer to tanking, I just want to offer some advice. Do not focus a single target, even if you have DPS that respect your numbering, how are you handling AoE pulls? The best thing you can do while tanking trash is to cycle targets. Keep an eye on your threat meters and use your larger emnity builders on mobs that DPS may have a sizable amount of hate on. Mobs where you are clearly in the lead you can ignore for just a little bit, but I stress cycle those targets. Tanking is every bit proactive and not as reactive as some new tanks tend to play.

I really have no horror stories from dungeons as a tank. Could mention cases where the heals or DPS were really sub-par, but it rarely causes more than 1 wipe. That's mostly because I'm the tank and having a good tank goes an unusually long way toward ensuring success.

A few comments since OP mentioned being kinda inexperienced with it (alternate character):
1) Don't count on marks to do anything. Game mechanics reward DPS hitting multiple targets (AEs, DoTs), so they are going to do that. Luckily it's quite feasible for tank to hold agro on multiple targets - WAR spams Overpower, DRK drops a few Unleash, PLD hits some Flash & rotates combos between targets. Hardest for PLD, but like I main WAR and it's just insanely easy to hold threat. Haven't bothered marking dungeon targets in well over a year and good luck on anyone taking threat - even when they're single targeting and I'm AE attacking. And even if they do manage it with cooldowns and not caring, well, then they take a few hits and either I get it back or else it dies. Rarely do DPS die in that case - stuff just doesn't hit that hard - and even if that does happen somehow it's not a wipe.
2) Seems you've overestimated 1st boss Sohm Al's area attack. Yes, it gets stronger the more hornets it eats. No, it doesn't stress any but the worst of healers even at it's highest.

Source: Leveling WAR, BLM, PLD, WHM 50 -> 60 with dungeons being by far largest source of XP. Done plenty of DF.

As a tank main everytime I dps I try my best to pull threat. Keeps tanks on there toes and teaches new tanks how to handle it.
Best thing to happen to me while leveling my tank after deciding I wanted to main a tank class was having dps that didn't hold back. Made having only my zenith when high allagen was a thing manageable because I already learned how to deal with over geared dps.

honestly i never had a very hard time holding aggro as a tank (even on paladin which has arguably the worst enmity gain of all the tanks...) the only time i have ever had anything even remotely similar is when i had a bard (a rlly bad one at that) that ran ahead of the group and pulled the mobs before any of us got there and died before i could even get there and gain enmity ... and long before the healer could get there as i was forced to actually waste my TP by using sprint to just try to get there in time...

wow sohm al drops a minion? I hav run it around 20+ times now just helping my wife lvl a second job to 60 and never seen it drop. she like to collct minions as well

Not trying to be mean to you OP. But from the info you've given sounds like you need to learn to tank multiple mobs. Summoners main method of attack is AoEing through DoT's if their not doing that their basically a waste of a party slot, period. Denying them or complaining about their main method of attack only shows your weakness as a tank. If their pulling hate off of you through ruin, that's worse and you just need to learn to tank in general.

First boss burn down is a general strategy for that boss. Seeing as that the AoE damage is the only method of attack the first boss has after it's initial rotation, no healer should have any trouble healing through that new or veteran. If they do they need to go back to level 1 and restart re-leveling as a healer because they didn't learn the function of cure. The only time it does anything else other than target -> sucks in -> Single AoE is if you take too long to kill it.

For the ice sprites, leave a way marker as you run towards the first group of mobs. You want them to be in that general, the sprite should (most cases) catch up to who ever arrgoed it and explode before reaching you or the rest of the party as you run back to the way marker's general area.

Final boss, doesn't matter which wing your DPS is attacking and if you're DRK or WAR it's probably best if you did attack the other one as if you go into your DPS stance or in the case of DRK take off grit you can get the other wing down 20-50% with proper rotations when the other DPS take down their wing, making them go down faster.

The whm being a retard and standing in front of the dragon is a real complaint though. I'd have kicked them out.

Worse experience I had....same as OP and healer/DPS standing in front of boss. And people not knowing 2nd boss mechanics and getting owned by mad dash.

Yeah, I know this feeling. I suppose as an unfortunate side-effect, I've become known amongst my FC as the tank you don't want to run with.

I don't feel like I should have to mark targets. It should be common sense to attack the same target, so I don't have to spam AOE hate generating abilities, but if I get DPS that refuse to use common sense, I start marking, if they continue to keep attacking the targets out of order, I'll let it go once or twice, sometimes mistakes happen. However, if they continue to do it I let them have it.

There have been a couple times I've been threatened to be "kicked" because I've let the DPS have it after ripping it from me, and then they start yelling in party chat for me to pull it off of them, and I ignore it, let them die, then I'll take it back. Heh, probably on the proverbial shit list of some DPS, but I stopped caring anymore. You continue to ignore my marking, and continue to purposefully take hate, I'll let you have it, and let you die. Better hope the healer feels like healing you.

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Originally Posted by Tsurayu

Yeah, I know this feeling. I suppose as an unfortunate side-effect, I've become known amongst my FC as the tank you don't want to run with.

I don't feel like I should have to mark targets. It should be common sense to attack the same target, so I don't have to spam AOE hate generating abilities, but if I get DPS that refuse to use common sense, I start marking, if they continue to keep attacking the targets out of order, I'll let it go once or twice, sometimes mistakes happen. However, if they continue to do it I let them have it.

There have been a couple times I've been threatened to be "kicked" because I've let the DPS have it after ripping it from me, and then they start yelling in party chat for me to pull it off of them, and I ignore it, let them die, then I'll take it back. Heh, probably on the proverbial shit list of some DPS, but I stopped caring anymore. You continue to ignore my marking, and continue to purposefully take hate, I'll let you have it, and let you die. Better hope the healer feels like healing you.

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I'm sorry, but I don't agree.There should be no reason you can't hold hate on multiple mobs. You don't even have to spam AoE to do it, granted you just throw in more. I mentioned it to the OP on the first page, but a tank that just focuses on a single target at a time is either new or not a good tank. Even when most DPS are performing their single target rotations, some jobs like SMN perform best by multi-dotting. When I DPS on DRG I'm sometimes switching between targets a lot depending on the situation, when I tank I understand this, so would never complain about it. Cycle targets as a tank and manage your emnity meters. It's honestly not difficult.

No I agree with that. I guess I should have reiterated I'm not talking about something that happens on a regular basis, but say you've got like a mob set of like three mobs, but one of them should die first because it either buffs the other mobs, or does AOE damage, whatever. Just one that should die first.

I feel I shouldn't have to constantly tab-target cycle hate generation through the enemies (beyond some initial aggro to prevent the healer from sneaking up on hate). I should be able to essentially help the DPS kill that particular add quickly, so we can end the entire encounter quicker in general.

But instead I will (rarely to be fair) encounter DPS that just want to randomly attack the other mobs that aren't the immediate threat of the other one, and I either have to take the time to cycle through targets, or throw a couple of AOE hate generating threat abilties, making the entire encounter take longer and more stressful for no reason.

Now when I have a party of DPS that want to continue to do that every pull in an instance I start getting aggrevated and my previous discussion ends up happening. I may be the tank, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate DPS that insist on making my job harder just because it's fun to take a piss on the tank.

Edit: Guess I should reiterate this tends to be only an issue I have with what are typically considered single-target DPS classes. Obviously I understand the need to keep group hate in an encounter in general, and especially when I have DPS who, by design, are meant to take down multiple targets quickly. So I suppose in the end, I do realize that this is more of a knit-pick considering you really need, as a tank, to keep aggro as a whole, but it is just annoying when I have to put extra effort for what I see as no-gain, but rather make the encounter take longer.

When I'm a DRG, if I rip aggro off the tank (it happens; I use regular dungeons as a chance to build muscle memory on the full rotation so on even random trash mobs I will blow all my CDs as I would in something like Alexander), I'll just use Elusive Jump + Spineshatter/Dragonfire Dive to halve my aggro and get back into position. While the tank's primary focus is to maintain aggro, sometimes gear discrepancies, skill level or even something as simple as getting a few lucky crits can mess with that. Part of a DPSes responsibility is making sure to deal as much damage as possible while also managing their aggro output. As far as I know, all DPS classes have at least one tool. They need to use them.

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

As a tank main everytime I dps I try my best to pull threat. Keeps tanks on there toes and teaches new tanks how to handle it.
Best thing to happen to me while leveling my tank after deciding I wanted to main a tank class was having dps that didn't hold back. Made having only my zenith when high allagen was a thing manageable because I already learned how to deal with over geared dps.

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I know at least 2 good tanks who won't run DF because of players like this^ basically stopped DFing after level 25, but went on to tank T9 and up (successfully and preferred over other tanks) with friends.

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Originally Posted by spelley

When I'm a DRG, if I rip aggro off the tank (it happens; I use regular dungeons as a chance to build muscle memory on the full rotation so on even random trash mobs I will blow all my CDs as I would in something like Alexander), I'll just use Elusive Jump + Spineshatter/Dragonfire Dive to halve my aggro and get back into position. While the tank's primary focus is to maintain aggro, sometimes gear discrepancies, skill level or even something as simple as getting a few lucky crits can mess with that. Part of a DPSes responsibility is making sure to deal as much damage as possible while also managing their aggro output. As far as I know, all DPS classes have at least one tool. They need to use them.

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wait does BLM have a aggro degenerating tool? i don't rem there being one for them... or monk for that matter

grinded duns only from 50-60 on my alt tank and never had any issues.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

wait does BLM have a aggro degenerating tool? i don't rem there being one for them... or monk for that matter

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Quelling Strikes is a must-have on BLM (even though it is cross-class), which also is used by SMN/BRD/MCN. Dragoons have Elusive Jump and NIN has Smoke Screen AND Shadewalker. MNK is apparently the only one who doesn't have Quelling Strikes or their own mitigation tool. MNK also is more about sustained damage however, and not big bursty hits which helps alleviate some of the problems.

As a SMN, my job is to hit all the targets at once, not just the marked target. Your job with a SMN in the party is to tank everything. Quelling Strikes will be used but it's not available for every pull. There will be no damage ramp-up time. It will start fast, it will hit hard, and it won't stop til they're dead. You can tank through this. Best of luck.

I got that winged cat minion from first sohm al run. Sorry about itXD

Holy cow I didn't even know that's where that minion dropped from. I've ran that a bunch on both my ninja and astrolgian for experience and never seen it once. I am sorry for your pain. :(

It's not just that dungeon but players in DF in general. I see it all the time when I DF Fractals and Neverreap for ExRoul. WHM's that use only regen+med2 and sit there on full MP without helping dps, melee dps that ignore positional and eat every aoe, dps that single target separate mobs that are not my target and then switch when I change to their target (ffs burn one target down then move to another stop spreading single target damage!), blm that single target during mass pulls, as well as all sorts of other nonsensical ridiculousness.

My guess, people just turn their brains off (if they have one to begin with) and expect to be carried through. This type of mentality makes no sense to me as all it does is cause the run to take longer.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

I know at least 2 good tanks who won't run DF because of players like this^ basically stopped DFing after level 25, but went on to tank T9 and up (successfully and preferred over other tanks) with friends.

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And my friends prefer me over other tanks as well. Thing is I don't let things in df affect what I choose to do. To quit running df because of something as silly as this is pretty funny to me.

To the OP, You are missing the concept of target for those DPS

BLM: Target is either 1 target or AoE target
SMN: Target is 'dot all target'
BRD: Target is 'dot all target'

It's in their nature and you'll have to live with it and practice with your tanking. You don't need an overwhelming aggro on 1 mob, which most of new tank do and fail.

The hardest aggro to maintain when you have nin/drg focus all their buffs on 1 target while SMN/BLM focus all their buffs on AoE.

Btw.. regarding glacier sprites, just leave them be. A known healer will draw aggro from all of 'em, far away from group.

I went Al sohm the other day as AST...

Tank ran off sprinting after the 2nd boss while everyone was browsing loot and got himself killed before I even entered the room.

Then I was kicked,

GG that guy.

G freaking G.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

wait does BLM have a aggro degenerating tool? i don't rem there being one for them... or monk for that matter

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BLM can use quelling strikes to lower aggro on their rotations and give the tank a good chance to rip hate right back... or they can proactively use it early to give the tank more time to gather enmity.

MNK... doesn't really have anything. If your pulling hate on a mob in a group though you can always switch to another mob for 2-3 GCD's and then go back after the tank throw's a Rage/Butcher's/PowerSlash on the mob.

Horrors I face daily on DF:

Melee that does 200 DPS less than my tank, refuses to attack my target, switches to the next mob at 10% expecting the tank to finish it off, and runs off before the last mob dies to pick his nose in front of the next group since he can't pull obviously.

BLM that single targets mobs in a massive pull, or spams Freeze in AoE because reasons!

BRD/MCN doing less than the tank DPS in AoE, never turns off songs.

Healers are one of two, either just stand there and wait for my HP to go below 50% before they cast a heal withou doing any DPS. Or just spam their biggest heal on me even when I'm topped off due to CD usage.

If I'm not a tank: Tanks that stand there before each pull counting the stars and contemplating life. I hate this because usually it lets things like Aethertrail Attunement drop and needs to be rebuilt again.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Horrors I face daily on DF:

Melee that does 200 DPS less than my tank, refuses to attack my target, switches to the next mob at 10% expecting the tank to finish it off,

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This drives me nuts. We'll have an entire group of enemies just hovering at 10-20% health because I guess I'm supposed to solo them with my mad Shield Oath DPS.

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback. I have now learned to hold aggro better, so the runs aren't nearly as difficult as they were before. The only problem is getting THAT STUPID CAT!!!!!:mad:

I'm new to tanking, but as a dps, I always attack what's marked. I see no point in making things harder on the tank (and thus the group) in general. If I do grab aggro, I'll use Blank to knock the mob back to the tank and switch targets until he gets threat back. I've basically taken to the rule that if dps keeps constantly pulling aggro because they refuse to attack the right targets, then they can tank it. I learned that in Halatali when two BLMs just kept spamming AoEs and I realized Flash just couldn't keep up, especially without an enmity stance.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I'm new to tanking, but as a dps, I always attack what's marked. I see no point in making things harder on the tank (and thus the group) in general. If I do grab aggro, I'll use Blank to knock the mob back to the tank and switch targets until he gets threat back. I've basically taken to the rule that if dps keeps constantly pulling aggro because they refuse to attack the right targets, then they can tank it. I learned that in Halatali when two BLMs just kept spamming AoEs and I realized Flash just couldn't keep up, especially without an enmity stance.

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actually....flash can keep up with fire 2...even without a tank stance at that level. And if they weren't spamming AoEs they were killing off their damage potential considerably. In which case the tank needs to step up their tanking ability.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

When a dps is able to pull agro from you, they'll get achievement, that's why they do that.

It shouldnt be really hard to maintain agro actually in sohm al, and i never mark mobs, I let the dps do their things, you just have to know which mob to single target enmity focus. For a SMN, spam ur aoe enmity 4-5 times, then rotate single target enmity to every mob you've pulled. If it's still hard, then I think you need to upgrade your weapon. Good luck with ur farming, gaelikitten is a cute minion, I wish I have it myself.

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Is this a real thing? I've never heard of it. I main DRG so sometimes I an accidentally pull aggro if the tank is undergeared/otherwise not generating enough enmity, but I always dump it right away if I do take it. But if there's an achievement..... hmm

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

As a tank main everytime I dps I try my best to pull threat. Keeps tanks on there toes and teaches new tanks how to handle it.

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Took note of your name so in case I encounter you, you rip it, you own it. Not only could this dissuade new tanks for playing the role due to frustration, it could also launch countless threads on the forum as to why someone may have trouble keeping aggro, because people are intentionally pulling aggro instead of working together as intended. Making someones job harder for them is not really helping them.

The enmity bar doesn't just go "poof, green to red" in a millisecond, generally. It takes either an exceptionnal combo or an incredible level of DPS/overhealing to get such a result. It's a progressive enmity for the vast majority of DPS, going Green > yellow > orange > red.
Most players will just switch target when they notice their enmity's rising. They don't ? They are the bad guys then, if they can't do such an easy thing as switching targets.
The only players one tank should be careful about are aoe-makers (mostly smn/blm), but as said before, even then the enmity is rising in a progressive and slow fashion, which -if you are an average (or better) tank - you will have nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Sennema

Is this a real thing? I've never heard of it. I main DRG so sometimes I an accidentally pull aggro if the tank is undergeared/otherwise not generating enough enmity, but I always dump it right away if I do take it. But if there's an achievement..... hmm

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I think they meant the DPS gets a *sense of achievement. Not a game achievement like "A tanks nuisance III".

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Took note of your name so in case I encounter you, you rip it, you own it. Not only could this dissuade new tanks for playing the role due to frustration, it could also launch countless threads on the forum as to why someone may have trouble keeping aggro, because people are intentionally pulling aggro instead of working together as intended

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I mean if that makes you feel better. But you shouldn't lose hate to begin with. If you have a tank to 50 or above I assume you know what your doing. I mean I'll go easy on pld before they get tank stance but pulling after that is kinda to bad so sad to me. I never complained when dps would go after separate targets I learned to adapt not my fault others choose to whine about it instead.
I'm not talking about pulling mobs before them or going after a target they didn't shield lob first. Whatever I pull off them they touched first. You had it you lost it best of luck in the future.