Game doesn't explains players jobs well enough

There are too many poop dps doing poop damage.

Then I thought back to myself how is this possible, and remember Guildhests and the job/class quests.

Guildhests teach you mechanics they don't explain rotations that should be done for general dps checks. Granted a lot of people flop mechanics but thats another issue.

What did I do for my Drk jobs. Run into some flames, fight enemies in ishgard and churning mists. What did I do for War run near some light bulbs that conveniently heal?
The explanation of playing ones job is subtle so it's almost not surprising that so many players can't do it, especially when the game doesn't really "test" you at any point during these quests to see if you've gotten the formula down.


Yoshi may feel his team communicated enough but given what I've seen over the past 2 years, they could do with taking their communication further to guide these players.
The game doesn't require parses, it does however need to properly guide its players to perform to the minimum standards it demands. It makes little sense to base content on expected dps minus 10-15% and yet you've got no information for these players on dealing that expected dps. This would be fine for a single player game where figuring these things out is entirely on ones own time, but with 3/7 others players, the majority of 'failures' should be learning mechanics of the fight if you don't know them, not dealing with incapability of doing ones job at a basic level.

You've got bards still complaining in your ear that they can't do damage, then it gets proven that they can, but why did you really here these complaints? Players not properly learning how to play to your standard. Mages who frankly are doing half my damage as a tank when in Defiance/Grit+darkside/Shield Oath.

If I can ask for something in 3.1 its some sort of job specific solo instance quest (as part of the storyline) with its own dps check, scaling all the dps to the expected ilevel that tells em what to do to meet that check. At that point you can figure you've coached all those players to meet the minimum expectation you have for them in terms of dps. They have more responsibilities then that but it's a start. As it is now if you don't meet expected damage, but someone goes above expected damage, you get through which is basically hit the wall enough and someone will eventually carry you.

At least you have guides that players typed up to help us.
People should take up the time and look for player notes.
That's what I did.

Two words to explain this. FATE Grinders.

^ This.

If FATEs and Hunts weren't the crazy easy-mode exp / gear up route in this game and more people were rewarded for doing Dungeons / Trials then we wouldn't have such a problem with people not understanding their jobs.

I honestly think SE is making a huge mistake with FATE's / Hunts. They should not be so lucrative and easy.

Want to make PvP more popular? Take what you give for hunts and put it in there. Then at least people would ATTEMPT to learn some mechanics of the game.

Also why... WHY does Dungeon Roulette give LESS EXP THAN A SINGLE FATE. Are you kidding me????

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Originally Posted by Xyrn86

Two words to explain this. FATE Grinders.

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Basically this, people spam the same 2 or 3 skills then when they get into an actual dungeon they have zero idea how to actually do damage, or heal properly, or even tank. Or you end up with stuff like this.

http://i.imgur.com/gk7adqw.png

Putting it on Fates is iffy.
Guildhests teach mechanics not job rotations.
The majority of all instances require to go through the story which then requires you to of done all the required dungeons/trials of the story, they all have dungeon/trial experience, they just can't operate at minimum expectations because someone else picks up the slack. A dungeon/trial doesn't teach you your rotation either, it does however bar you from succession if you cannot complete the tasks asked of you unless others pick up the slack which is fairly common.

It's not just DPS that are bad. There are a lot of bad players in all the categories. DPS are just more noticeable because there's so many more of them than Tanks or Healers. The problem also isn't FATE grinding, it's that the solo content and non-endgame content doesn't require you really even know anything beyond the basics of your rotation. That's fine, since it makes the game more accessible, but it also means that players who are used to games holding their hands and telling them exactly what to do, don't know how to, (or even that they should), teach themselves more about how to utilize their skills properly. There really is no way around this that wouldn't drive off a lot of players, though......

People who run around in FATE parties suck at dungeons. They are however very good at clearing a FATE and getting max exper for it. They might be really good at running the many FATE spots you see in HW but they aren't there because SE gated them all behind that horrible dungeon grind we call MSQ.

Rest assured, most of us crappy dungeon people are running them solo with no exper because it's still a better alternative than being a forum punching bag. We will be back to running FATE content as soon as we are done playing dancing monkey for Square.

I think that the game does a pretty good job of teaching new and old players alike.
There is a lot of information in the game, the player just needs to actually bother reading it. (help text and action tool tips, and ofc the guildhest help text as well)
Likewise, there is also an abundance of information available out of game and again, all a player has to do is seek out that information and then read it.

However, that would mean that players slow down a little and actually learn their jobs instead of always rushing. In addition, this also means that other players would need to show a little patience and also be willing to slow down a little =\

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

I think that the game does a pretty good job of teaching new and old players alike.
There is a lot of information in the game, the player just needs to actually bother reading it. (help text and action tool tips, and ofc the guildhest help text as well)
Likewise, there is also an abundance of information available out of game and again, all a player has to do is seek out that information and then read it.

However, that would mean that players slow down a little and actually learn their jobs instead of always rushing. In addition, this also means that other players would need to show a little patience and also be willing to slow down a little =\

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I totally agree with this. I mean, there are guides out there, but for those who don't want to take the time to read through some of those, they should at least read the stuff in game. It would help them a lot.

Something I feel would help a lot is if SE changed the synching feature so that you can actually use your full arsenal of skills even when level synched.

While levelling in dungeons... If the dungeon you run happens to be the highest you can run according to your level, no problem... If you get synched down, that new rotation that you just learned is useless as you no longer have some of the skills. This l eads to players not bothering learning to use their new skills until they hit level cap.

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Originally Posted by Svalitz

Also why... WHY does Dungeon Roulette give LESS EXP THAN A SINGLE FATE. Are you kidding me????

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http://puu.sh/jcMdO/72daa878a9.jpg

It... doesn't? That's from Trial Roulette at level 52.

http://puu.sh/jcNvT/8e9b396810.jpg

That's from Leveling Roulette at level 53.

http://puu.sh/jcN2C/6a4951380b.jpg

For the sake of comparison, here is what I Fought a Dzu awards at level 52.

How much time that Leveling roullete took you and how much time that single FATE took you? Thats the comparison.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

How much time that Leveling roullete took you and how much time that single FATE took you? Thats the comparison.

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I got the Howling Eye for my Leveling Roulette. It took 4 and a half minutes to complete.

I Fought a Dzu took over 15 minutes. What was that comparison again? :P

He didn't say anything about time. He simply said that roulette gives less than a single fate, which isn't the case.

If you read the tool tips and hit the buttons in order that they tell you to, you will do acceptable dps.

There's only so low SE can stoop. They have no obligation to hand-hold those with an extreme lack of intelligence.

You have to do most dungeons at least once to progress the main story. That gives you plenty of practice on your main job.

If someone chooses not to do dungeons with their alt jobs, or otherwise practice their role, that's not SE's fault. People like the OP really have to stop blaming SE and other people rather than the bad players that only have themselves to blame.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I got the Howling Eye for my Leveling Roulette. It took 4 and a half minutes to complete.

I Fought a Dzu took over 15 minutes. What was that comparison again? :P

He didn't say anything about time. He simply said that roulette gives less than a single fate, which isn't the case.

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Yea thats garuda. How about Step of Faith or even titan that ppl keep failing. FATEs are a constant exp gain while roullete u are at the mercy of people that dont know hot to do their job properly. Most people will take the route of less resistance and thats FATEs.

The game does somewhat explain things for you. It is very good at hand holding, but not smothering you, the rest they want you to find out from community websites (or yeah, watch youtube videos, read forum). The biggest offender is so many players are just bad, they do not bother to read, or figure out how to do proper rotations, and what is expected from their roles. And god forbid you are trying to teach them how to play.... People also cannot deal with mechanics, even when it is happening on the same exact pattern, and following a very strict rotation. It seems that majority of US players also cannot read, do not want to read, and never bother to check forums (reddit, youtube, wiki, etc...) to find out more info about their classes, or the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Basically this, people spam the same 2 or 3 skills then when they get into an actual dungeon they have zero idea how to actually do damage, or heal properly, or even tank. Or you end up with stuff like this.

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This is just sad. Is that A4, too?
The game doesn't need to explain further. People need to read their tooltips!

In 11 the game explained you way less than 14 explains you. When I first started 11, I didn't know what a tank, pull, voke or aggro meant. I learned so much from just playing the game, more experienced people would be on other job in my party and I watched them do their thing to learn how the job was usually played and the role it fit. And this was even before I knew about FFXIclopedia! As a plus, it was at parties where you met nice people that would give you tips and teach you about the roles for each job. I guess the fact that you could interact with people more during combat it being outside world, gave you access to that knowledge and training. On top of that, you HAD to work as a team, the ranged pulled mobs, the tank voked them, if there was a THF, the tank had to position the mob so there would be enough space at the back of it, the THF had to SATA viperbite, skillchain with another melee in the party, BLMs or SMNs had to nuke at the right time for the magic burst.

Here though, we have instanced dungeons where everyone is usually in a hurry to clear or don't speak a word (even when you ask a question...). We have Fate grinding that teaches you nothing about your job. The game feels more solo oriented so you don't really have to work as a team with others, you can just spam your abilities mindlessly and get the job done (badly, but done). What can you do about the large percentage of apathetic people in the community? Probably nothing the way the game is... but at least you could read your tooltips to save yourself.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

snip

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Yeah I do believe that conversation was taken during an Alex run, dunno the real source though as it was linked by a static member while we were running.

I admit the fact you said that kinda makes me itch to go back to 11, shame with how dead it was my past few tries I am sure it wouldn't fair much better a 3rd time.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You have to do most dungeons at least once to progress the main story. That gives you plenty of practice on your main job.

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It doesn't. When I came back to the game, Second Coils were the current end game. I only learned about rotations when I was doing T4. My mediocre 200 DPS spamming Heavy Shot was enough to clear all my MSQ content, but not enough for things that matter.
That's one more reason as to why people are having problems in Bismarck normal.

The problem is, I only found out I wasn't doing acceptable DPS when someone with a parser told me. I don't blame the DPS that get in Bismarck with their 1 2 3 rotation and wipe to the DPS check. They never had a MSQ DPS check that tight before and no way to know they're lacking.

Of course, I opened Google, typed "Bard FFXIV rotation" and pretty much the first link was all the information I needed (then experience took over, but I needed a starting point). But MSQ should make players gradually get better, and everything being a faceroll doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Basically this, people spam the same 2 or 3 skills then when they get into an actual dungeon they have zero idea how to actually do damage, or heal properly, or even tank. Or you end up with stuff like this.

http://i.imgur.com/gk7adqw.png

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My inner BRD died a little.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

Of course, I opened Google, typed "Bard FFXIV rotation" and pretty much the first link was all the information I needed (then experience took over, but I needed a starting point). But MSQ should make players gradually get better, and everything being a faceroll doesn't help.

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I feel like that starting point is already in the game in the form of tooltips. When confronted with new abilities, I tried them out, then did additional reading to figure out how best to integrate them (or not) into my existing rotation. If the tooltips and descriptions didn't provide enough information for me, I went to Google. I asked questions of other people also, both people I ran into in dungeons, and in my FC. All the information is out there in different forms.

Hm..I wouldn't mind if job quests were more like the AST one. Right at lvl 30, it did a really good job of introducing and getting you used to the different cards and what they do.
You basically went around the instance, picked up one card after another, got an explanation on it and had to use it in a fight before you went to the next card.

But in the end, even that won't help against bad players. The information is all there for the players, every skill has a tooltip about it's strength, additional effects and how it links to other skills to form a rotation.
Nobody has to read external guides to get decent at their class, the information provided ingame is obvious enough. If people ignore it, it's because they WANT to ignore it, not because there is an actual lack of information on abilities and skills and such :/

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Originally Posted by alt_key

I feel like that starting point is already in the game in the form of tooltips. When confronted with new abilities, I tried them out, then did additional reading to figure out how best to integrate them (or not) into my existing rotation. If the tooltips and descriptions didn't provide enough information for me, I went to Google. I asked questions of other people also, both people I ran into in dungeons, and in my FC. All the information is out there in different forms.

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Well yes. But, for example, myself:

I had no idea how important it is for BRD to manage cooldowns, how much of a difference the order you use them make. The tooltip only says "Increases damage by x%", but that's it. Of course, I don't want the game to hold my hand and give me the best possible rotation or something like that, but I shouldn't be able to clear the whole MSQ without using a single cooldown whatsoever. And I did. My ~100 DPS that couldn't even clear the first hard mode primal shouln't be able to get through the MSQ like that.

We don't get punished when we don't perform well in MSQ, and that's why DPS checks like Bismarck seem so outrageous. But if you ask a party of people that do end game content, they cleared it like it was nothing.
When I first did Bismarck normal, it was on the second day of Early Access, so I got people with the same mindset as me, trying to get their level and be geared, most likely raiders. Because of that, the run was super smooth (everyone was a first timer):
Right before first pull, our second healer jumped off, because we didn't know we could fall. Brave sacrifice. Then after that wipe, we cleared on our second pull.

I'm not saying that everyone should be a raider and do "1000 DPS per second", but the reason people that constantly do end game have better chances of getting through this kind of content and say it's a "faceroll" is because they get punished when they are lacking.
But again, I'd never know I was lacking DPS if it wasn't for a friend's parser, so I don't blame people for ignorance.