Dark Knight, or Paladin?

Hi all, I'm having a...strange problem. I love both Paladin and Dark Knight, but the setup of Esoterics forces me to have to pick one to gear up. I love Paladin's shield, Hallowed Ground, and Clemency, but at the same time hate that it's punished for Flash by doing zero damage. Meanwhile Dark Knight has a goodly damage lead, and I also love how dark arts works. I also like the look of both sets, so...

I can't make up my mind, who should I give the inital AF2 tomes to? (or I could just pick a third option and go scholar I guess but the gear feels kind of wasted going to a healer).

So you listed 3 things you like about PLD and only 2 about DRK, also one thing you dislike about PLD and nothing about DRK. So the one dislike cancels out one like about PLD so then you evenly like both. So grab a coin and pick a side, you will then have your answer.

I'm in the same boat I'm a career PLD with WAR being my secondary job. I have PLD DRK and WAR at 60. WAR would be the easy pick in terms of which is best. PLD and sword/board is my favorite but PLD is lacking hard right now. DRK is an excellent job for DPS and Alex tanking.

Let me know what you decide! Since weapon is your first purchase we have a 1.5 weeks to figure it out.

Personally I'm disappointed with esoterics forcing me to pick 1 of the three tanks.

I think I'm leaning to stick to WAR since it's been my main since 2.0 and the fluidity of their stance dancing is pulling me in more than DRK's Dark Arts and MP management. However, I have this VERY VERY strong urge to switch to SMN main. Not only is it my favorite DPS class, their esoterics set is cute! lol

EDIT: Forgot to post something relevant lol

DRK does more DPS than PLD in general. But PLD brings more utility. Outside of the obvious magical vs physical mitigation, these factors can help you decide.

If you want more utility go PLD. If you want more DPS and less utility go DRK.

I have the same problem.

However, I would suggest to everyone that you should take "effectiveness" out of the question. Rather, focus on whether you like the gameplay, and (if this is important to you), the aesthetics.

For me, I love the way paladin plays. It is very slow and methodical and having a fixed rotation gives me freedom to worry about the raid instead.

However, I love the DRK weapon. And I love learning new classes, and right now I suck at DRK.

However, I hate the DRK armor.

However, I'd just like to wield a 2h sword in one hand and a giant shield in the other (D3 Crusader anyone? ^^)...while wearing the awesome PLD AF2.

Oh man =(

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

However, I hate the DRK armor.

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But... How...

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

But... How...

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Very spike. Much emo.

I prefer the clean lines of PLD armor, and love the AF2. The DRK AF2 seems a very generic spiky dark plate set with no real character...similarly the sword looks like an oversized frat paddle with spikes. I was really hoping for swords more...I dunno. Elegant, or something.

That is what made me realize I love paladin swords. The Hot Claire is pretty amazing, and I was running Zantetsuken (a 2h weapon in 1h size ^^) previously.

I went with PLD simply because of aesthetics.

I'm in a very similar situation with PLD and DRK.

I leveled DRK as soon as HW was released, and have it at 60 through finishing msq etc. I'm now working on PLD and using DRK for my expert roulette.

I really enjoyed leveling DRK, however when doing the exact same dungeons as a PLD, I am finding them a whole lot less stressful and a whole lot easier. Whilst DRK damage is awesome whilst tanking, especially compared to PLD, I feel that the inclusion of dark arts effects on defensive cooldowns was a mistake. I felt that whilst leveling, a lot of the DRK cooldowns were quite lacklustre compared to PLD, unless buffed. It seems silly to need one tank use resources to buff their cooldowns.

This brings me onto the second point, resources. I feel that the MP management of DRK is just an unnecessary layer of complexity. The DRK abilities just don't seem to mesh all that we'll with recovering MP and abilities, particularly key ones such as grit, cost way too much. PLD doesn't suffer quite so much in this department as flash is relatively MP efficient and shield/sword are pretty cheap. MP management as DRK just seems like an extra thing to worry about, but the effect is to bring it up to PLD/WAR standards.

Looks wise, it's a wash. The new DRK artifact gear is gorgeous, as is the weapon, but there's something about the classic sword and board type knight, especially in some regal armour that looks awesome. I'd really like a cloak vanity slot though and to actually do some pvp for the lionsmane gear.

Overall, I think once I have it leveled to 60 I'll be going PLD for everything except dungeon farming where the extra dps of DRK will really come in handy.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

MP management as DRK just seems like an extra thing to worry about, but the effect is to bring it up to PLD/WAR standards.

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Yeah, this bothers me about the DRK more than anything else. You have this extra shit to worry about but there doesn't seem to be any payoff. A WAR that knows how to stance dance and use their cooldowns properly is rewarded with a massive spike in damage. It's not necessary but it's something to shoot for if you're looking to get the most out of your job. But you have to do all this fussing over your MP as a DRK just to function at a basic level and it doesn't look like there's any way to go above and beyond with it without running out of gas in 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

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DRK MP management is fine and is in line with WAR's wrath management and PLD's CD management. Granted PLD is the "easiest" to "manage".

DRK has the highest consistent damage if MP is managed. And ONLY 2 of the DRK CDs are buffed by Dark Arts and they are VERY potent. DRK is by no means squishier than PLD or WAR. ALL three tanks have the exact same effective HP with slight difference due to base VIT. The different tool kits make up for what they lack in different departments. (PLD has a shield, WAR and DRK have self heals for fluff damage, etc.)

Now if MP management is not your thing, that doesn't make the DRK weaker than the other two tanks. It just means DRK is not the tank for you.

Thanks for the posts all.

ultimately I think i'll go with dark knight because, for the content I do (casual dungeoning, normal/ez mode raids), Paladin is considerably worse than Dark Knight. Way harder to hold aggro if you want to maximize damage, and the damage in both tank stances...dark knight just completely blows Paladin out of the water where it counts.

it's kind of sad how behind paladin's damage is, really ._.

Not really that bad. My only observation with PLD trailing in terms of dps is when there's a huge pull. Since DRK aoe threat deals damage, then it's just padding to their dps. DRK was given a massive enmitygain from DA Power Slash is due to the fact that you'll mostly be doing syphon strike to fuel your darkside. Think of a PLD doing nothing but riot blade to sustain their Flash spamming. That's the reason behind.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Now if MP management is not your thing, that doesn't make the DRK weaker than the other two tanks. It just means DRK is not the tank for you.

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I don't mind the concept of MP management at all. I just find the way it's implemented on the DRK kinda...clunky? I don't know how put it exactly, it just doesn't feel like it flows naturally and the MP costs for a lot of spells just seems all over the place. I mean, DA+DP eats up damn near half my MP bar for what, exactly? Grit eats up all that mana for what, exactly? That's what I mean by there not being much payoff to it. It doesn't feel like it's adding anything, it's just...there.

It just seems like they slapped arbitrarily high MP costs on everything to make you "manage" it (i.e. spam Syphon Strike forever)

PLD has the worst aggro and dps of the three tanks.
Laughable AoE.
The self heal is incredibly slow, and more a tool for OTing.
Their 180sec cd is slightly stronger (40% vs 30%)
Their RNG based mitigator is considerably weaker (60% block for 15 seconds every 180 seconds vs 30% parry/20% dodge for 20 seconds every 60 seconds).
Their potencies are quite bad.
Their ability to tank out of shield oath is quite different, cause unlike darkside or deliverence/maim, the natural emnity increases do not have any damage magnification from sword oath. Everything must come from FoF.

Most of the paladin advantages are negated or diminished in certain alex fights. So far, 2 war or 1 war 1 dark seems more ideal..

Basically--dont go PLD right now. Its actually not in a great spot.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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I'd take Bulwark over Dark Dance anyday. The dodge part on Dark Dance is absolute shit and a waste of MP, and Bulwark can actually be quite reliable for rapid physical damage chains like Bahamut Claws in T9 or things like Rapid Sever in Fractal Continuum. Dark Dance is not. 30% is too low for that. The two CDs are not even comparable because you don't use them in the same purpose at all. Dark Dance you'll pretty much just pop it when it's available or when Reprisal is available to make it proc. Bulwark will actually be used for physical tank busters often in conjunction with foresight and convalescence or when tanking a lot of mobs like A2 and it's a really great tool that makes you block almost every single hit. With Dark Dance you don't parry that much more than without it. I think most people here tend to overrate what this shitty cooldown does. It just helps a little getting Low Blow procs and Reprisal. Base block rate even with a tower shield is much higher than parry rate and Bulwark scales amazingly well with that.

PLDs potencies are not bad at all. Goring Blade is 540 (which is almost a DRG's Chaos Thrust, their most powerful move), Royal Authority 340 (Full Thrust is 360, Aeolian Edge is 320). Granted their RoH combo is only 260. But you don't need to use it that much, especially against a magic damage dealing enemy. RoH is not your bread and butter anymore. Add that Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn which are OGCD, PLDs have pretty good damage now.

Granted they have crap AoE damage and enmity.

FoF is the strongest offensive cooldown in the entire game. 30% more damage for 30sec every 90 sec is freaking HUUUUGE. It's like 33% uptime during an entire fight. Berserk is 50% more attack power (which is not exactly 50% more damage) for 20 sec every 90 sec. It's a bit more powerful but has less uptime over the fight and gives 5 sec pacification at the end which will not always be dispelled. FoF is better, that's all, and that's why PLDs don't have a Darkside/Maim equivalent.

Add that their DPS stance is the most powerful of the 3 tanks. +50 potency per auto-attack is huge considering PLD has one of the fastest auto-attacks in the game, I read somewhere that at level 50 with Dreadwyrm Blade it was equivalent to +11% damage. It varies depending on the sword you're using and its auto-attack delay, but it's always around the 10% range.

PLD is not that bad, it's still the safest of the 3 tanks, it has great utility, it still has Hallowed Ground (which is amazing), it still has the best passive mitigation, and it does quite good damage now. It still has its place in end-game raids.

PLDs are good, we love them.

WARs DPS stance shits on PLDs. Fellcleave decimation and equilibrium plus crit stats and a 5% damage buff.

Yeah obviously but I was speaking only about the pure damage addition.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

WARs DPS stance shits on PLDs. Fellcleave decimation and equilibrium plus crit stats and a 5% damage buff.

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PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

A PLD's dps mostly come from its auto-attack. SE made a good decision for that and is taking the right steps on giving us swords with faster swings. i say let the WARs get their juicy burst damage while give us faster swings which will bump our dps without changing our rotations, whatsoever. As for DRKs, just give them a way to regain TP since Blood Weapon drains TP so fast.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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This is an absolutely disingenuous way to compare classes. Both Dragoons are Ninjas have built in damage multipliers (Ninjas via poisons and futon) as well as extensive OGCD attacks that put paladin ones to shame. When you compare TANK VS TANK the potencies damage is far clearer. A Dark Knight for instance has darkside up at all times for a consistant 15% increase (vs FoF being 10% over time) and now you can start comparing potency.

Paladin Combos:
Damage: 150+200+340=690 (Royal Authority)
Damage(over time): 150+230+540=920 (Goring, every 24 seconds)
Enmity: 150+200+610
OGC:
Circle of Scorn for 250 every 25 seconds
Spirits Within: 300(Full health) every 30 seconds


Dark Knights: Values increased at the end by 5% given darkside over fof
Damage/Self Heal: 150+250+260 (No darkside Soul Eater) 660 raw---693 adjusted
Damage/Enmity: 150+220+300 =670 ----703.5 adjusted
Damage/Debuff: 150+250+280. 680 raw--714 adjusted
Even if you ignore the adjusted damage, it is clearly ahead. There is no Dark Arts Here.
But you say, Goring Blade So good? 540 for the last step of the combo is impressive. Scourge does 500 potency over time however, does not need a combo, and unlike fracture, starts at 60 tp (might as well be a combo finisher).

So hey, lets bring in OGCDs. This should be fun!.
Low Blow: 100 every 25 seconds
Plunge: 200 ever 30 seconds
Carve and Spit: 100/450 every minute
Salt the Earth: 525 every 45 seconds
Reprisal: 210 every 30 seconds with a proc

Might have missed one infact.

Next--I main Warrior (check loadstone)--you are absolutely wrong about how good berserk is. 50% attack power is better amazing compared to FoF. It absolutely does result in 1.5x damage (damage formula here; http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Formula-Thread . Attack power is the sum of that formula, and is used in things other than damage---Like your self heal from Second Wind, or the potency of your flashes. Damage only effects damage). FoF does more for damage over time, certainly, but that is not how either class actually works. Warriors will dump everything they can in that time frame, along side having access to inner release and having their maim stacks in order--Paladin has nothing like that, other than having their 2 ogcds ready to go.

Nextly--their dps stance has many--many issues. It does not magnify aggro like raw darkside or deliverence does to enmity increases (which is why both dark and war can offensively tank a1 savage and a2 savage at the moment. Paladins only can in spurts before aggro catches up on them quickly). Secondly, while math wise it is quite powerful, the proof is in the pudding. If you take a 4-6 minute parse of the three classes, they lag behind--plain and simple (ignore silly 2 or 2.5 minute parses, since they generally mean nothing).

PLD is in a bad position, basically the class right now boils down to Hallowed Ground. There is content that ignores your shield, which counts for many of your class perks, you do the least damage, clemency is too slow to generally matter. Divine Veil is nice in certain places, but hardly a deal breaker for any group.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

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I'm not sure on your basis of close. Most parses i see out of savage have paladins 300+ dps behind the other tanks. Even dummy doll parses are 200+ behind (please, dont link pareses that are not at least 4 to 5 minutes long. 2 minute parses are largely dismissed). Paladins were doing so at the start of content, but this have largely changed as more and more tanks (even paladins) are tanking in offensive stances. A1 Savage and A2 Savage basically require this, or are not negatively impacted without it. Paladins however cannot keep aggro very long staying in sword oath vs great dps--meaning they have to swap back to shield oath commonly. Sword Oath, unlike raw darkside or deliverence, has no effect on the abilities that generate enmity, which couples with their lower raw enmity generation than either other class leads them to basically still being married to Rage of Halone. Rage of Halone was built at a time that it was ALL paladins spammed--your only combo. Fact Paladins had poor enmity was fine, cause all you did was spam the enmity combo.


This is not the case anymore--so largely as a tank the times you can royal safely are pretty small (or your dps are very lazy and not good--I'm only speaking from savage static experience here).

Paladins are parsing lower than dark and dark is lower than war, they threat the least out of each of them, and their only short cooldown cd(60 seconds or less) is locked to physical only (Darks have 2 physical short cds, 1 magical. War has a short cd skin/rampart and burst self heal).

This becomes pronounced in A1 Savage where dark knights and wars can pop 2 defensives or more with every tank buster (a war can pop IB/Vengeance every time, raw intuition to help with autos after and equilibirum to heal back up. Dark can do skin + mind every buster(and one with wall), dark dance to help with autos and have a soul eater ready for some health).

Paladins can pop rampart every buster and on one of them, throw in sentinel in for one). Bulwark can be up every OTHER buster to help with autos, and clemency is interrupted by the buster, so its irrelevant (starting the cast after the fact----too long, healers will full heal you before you finish 3 seconds. Not to mention, it prevents you from blocking which is why you have bulwark up).

Its a class in a really terrible spot at the moment, where basically you pay for your 'great mitigation' with lowered aggro and damage, but your great mitigation does not always apply or apply meaningfully--which reduces you to...

Hallowed Ground.

Or being an off tank and healing the main tank--cause I know thats what every paladin wanted to do when they rolled Paladin..

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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I was not speaking about tank-stance DPS. It's clear that PLD is behind the two others. But while doing pure DPS (meaning sword oath and stuff) they are all pretty balanced (and you can do that while tanking when you don't need the extra mitigation). WAR just has an advantage TP-wise and in terms of brutal burst-damage, but in terms of sustained DPS, considering the PLD and DRK can benefit from the slashing debuff, they all have potentially near the same DPS. DRK has the highest potencies because he doesn't have any damage increasing CD (only Darkside which is awesome). WAR has the lowest potencies in their combos and slower (but harder) auto-attacks but they have Maim, dat Berserk and Fell Cleave/Decimate for high burst damage. PLD is middle-ground potency-wise but has the fastest auto-attacks and the AMAZING FoF. Don't underestimate a SwO PLD's auto-attacks.

I was main WAR before switching to DRK and I still love my axe. I'm a big WAR fan since the beginning, but it's a fact, even if Berserk does give +50% damage, unlike I first said, it's still inferior to FoF over the course of an entire fight. Tho it's true that the WAR still has the insane burst damage advantage and that's why we love them too. And I never said Berserk was bad. It's amazingly good too.

Even if PLD's DPS stance doesn't increase weaponskill damage, a good PLD with a good amount of STR should still be able to keep agro while being in SwO and using Goring Blade and RA.

I often see your posts saying that PLD is bad right now, and I disagree. They don't only bring HG, they still have the best physical damage mitigation, and still have great utility. Divine Veil is some really good shit and Clemency can sometimes save lives with a bit of anticipation. Don't forget that it's also still the easiest tank to play and that they still are the safest one to pick as a main tank when discovering a new encounter. It's still a great job. It just doesn't "shine" as much as it used to be, and I'm happy about that, it means that the 3 tanks are pretty well-balanced (with DRK having some slightly underwhelming things but I'm pretty sure SE will fix that some times in the future and it doesn't prevents it to be the best tank for magic damage dealing bosses).

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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Just saw your second post and I must answer to this as well. If you saw PLDs doing 300+ DPS behind the other tanks, the problem comes from the player behind the PLD, not from the job. A good PLD is not THAT far behind. Depending on the encounter it can even be in the same range. And on dummy, the 3 tanks are doing pretty much similar sustained DPS. PLD may be a bit lower but it's just a bit, no more than that.

My static's PLD (yes we run PLD + DRK and it's fine, tho I miss the ability of being able to apply the slashing debuff instead of our NIN but hell, I love playing DRK, he loves playing PLD, we have no DPS issues with our current comp in savage, so I stick to DRK. I would switch to WAR only if it's a 100% necessity) has no issues using RA combo while keeping enmity even with hardcore DPS. Don't forget that RA comes from Savage Blade. It still builds some enmity and the simple fact of dealing high damage because he's STR specced with hybrid accessories gives him enough room to fit RA.

You're exaggerating a lot when it comes to saying that PLD is "in a bad spot" or just "bad". It's true that against magic tank busters, they are a bit behind, but they still can tank efficiently, and their damage are nowhere near as low as you tend to think.

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

The only busters atm in Alex are magic (watched all of a3 Savage tonight on the left twitch stream and while there's decent physical there's no busters perse). Paladins are not good at dealing with common heavy damage sources however :long cds mean they generally can pop one XD per mechanic (or two of its physical via sheltron). Meanwhile in a1 Savage a war can pop ib and vengeance for the magic buster each and every time, along with thrill of battle and equilibrium...

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Originally Posted by Faytte

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

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In an organized team you won't run out of TP. You either get Goad or if more than one people needs TP there is a BRD or MCH. And every fights as for now has downtimes which makes you recover TP. A1 savage for example, when the boss is in the air, he's not targettable for easily 10-15 sec. Without being out of TP, DRK parses equally to WAR and PLD parses just a little bit lower. Parsing out of TP is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

I'm 186 on both pal and war(and dark for the matter). Hive weapons across the board. I can dummy parse 1k on a four minute parse on war, 850 on dark (run out a tp) and low 700s on paladin (run out a tp). Paladin dps isn't hard by any degree but people showing a quick two minute parse as proof of anything is pretty mute. You more or stay on the boss none stop in a1 Savage, although with run breaks let regen tp(so either drk or pal running out on a dummy is moot). To be clear once either tank ran out of to stopped the parse (which is why I do four minute parses).

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I don't get the last sentence. Are you saying you stop the parse when you run out of TP?
But then you say that's why you do four minute parses, and you should definitely run out of TP before then.

You're right that 2 minute parses aren't the best. A lot of that is opening burst and dps doesn't stabilize within that time frame.
That said, I have never seen anyone acknowledge a parse that goes beyond the TP limit. I'm with Freyy, those are invalid.

Dummy parses are not meant to simulate real fights. While some bosses are basically target dummies for a tank, many aren't.
A dummy parse isn't more valid now that we're on A1 than it was when we were on Ravana Ex.
It's a basic measure of dps in a completely isolated fashion.
Running out of TP is trying to simulate a specific fight scenario, which doesn't meet that universal standard dummy parses are generally used for.

If you're doing 4 minute parses, you have to make sure TP doesn't play a factor on the damage output.
It should only be your DPS potential while continuously using your abilities for the given time.
You can get a friend to goad you or a bard to sing. Or both.

But don't simulate running out of tp in a given fight.
That would be like dps pretending to dodge or do mechanics during their dummy parses.
They're meant to simulate maximum potential in ideal circumstances. No artificial handicaps.

You also have to take into account the fact that the WAR gives himself his own slashing debuff when parsing alone on a dummy, it's a big advantage compared to the other tanks. In real fights, DRK and PLD will most likely benefit from the slashing debuff too, thus if you want to have the same results on a dummy you need someone to apply the slashing debuff while you're parsing, then you'll see your real DPS and be able to compare it to WAR. When all 3 tanks can benefit from the slashing debuff, they are almost completely equal. I'm pretty sure that Faytte didn't parse with slashing debuff on DRK and PLD. It makes kind of a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

You also have to take into account the fact that the WAR gives himself his own slashing debuff when parsing alone on a dummy, it's a big advantage compared to the other tanks.debuff on DRK and PLD. It makes kind of a big difference.

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We have a ninja in our static my dps has gone up since she joined. Slashing debuff is amazing. As DRK I parse 600dps on ravana.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

PLD can still parse close to WARs. The recorded differences are mostly a consequence of fight mechanics. Ravana Ex is fantastic for Warriors (who deal most of their damage through ability use and have high periods of burst) because of how Liberation works, while it's "bleh" for Paladins who simply can't pump out the same level of burst, dependent as they are on Sword Oath for a solid chunk of their damage.

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PLDs run out of TP in 2:50 seconds. WARs don't run out of TP.

If the counter is some fights have a pause/stop to replenish TP, then WAR still has a huge advantage since 40-50% of their DPS comes during zerk, so any time zerk is down and the boss is untargetable they are actually adding to their advantage.

PLDs threat level in Sword oath is terrible compared to DRK/WAR in their respective stance. Again this means more Halone spam and less Royal, which kills their DPS in a real game situation. (Faytte was more elegant in pointing this out)

Throw the 3 min dummy parses out and you'll realize how bad of a place PLD is in right now with hate generation and DPS.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

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But PLDs are still not shit. Yeah they may have a lower enmity ATM and lower damage but it's not THAT bad. And the advantage you're stating with Berserk and fights with downtimes affect everyone with offensive cooldowns. The same could be said with PLD and FoF. Berserk grants better burst damage yeah. But even when a fight has downtimes you rarely only hit the boss for 20 seconds before the next downtime, it lasts generally 1-2 min.

I mean the point is not that PLD are "awful" or "no place in raid teams" like it was in 2.0 warrior.

The point is simply that for the most part they are worse. Not really extremely worse, just quantifiably worse for most content.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

But PLDs are still not shit. Yeah they may have a lower enmity ATM and lower damage but it's not THAT bad.

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Not the bad , but still bad.

-Outside of our tank stance:
(If any of your DPS are pushing over 1200) You might as well forget Royal Authority and spam that Halone because that Drag/Mnk is pulling up on you fast. It's not worth potential agro loss.
As an OT this is perfect though. Sword Oath with it's added pot. Is great but still doesn't add raw Attack boost!
FoF is great in Sword Oath, but in Shield Oath you're basically making up what the other tanks do already.

Our Physical CDs are still the best in the game and our physical mitigation can't be matched....... somewhat.
WARs still have a very high HP pool with being able to use IB pretty much at will
DRK still has 30% damage reduction on top of 10% reduction , which is pretty much a Sentinel for them. Also INT debuff is great for parties without MNKs but seeing as MNKs still hold a top portion of raid spots , this advantage has been slightly reduced, but still great though.

I also don't agree with worse for most content for PLDs either

Rav EX and Bis EX- are pretty much any ones game. No cleaves in Bismarck and the Blade in Ravana is physical which is PLDs specialty

AS1- PLDs handle the tank busters pretty easily with a 45%ish damage reduction stemming from Sentinel and Stoneskinning ourselves before plasma
AS2- Bulwark and Awareness are very handy , not to mention the RNG for the shield is up'd greatly here.
I have not seen game play from 3 or 4 yet.

We're somewhere on the back end but not that far behind. If Royal Authority generated enmity it would make us pretty vital considering then you could Skill Speed Build a tank and use Sword Oath once you've established agro in Shield Oath, and re-apply Halone De buff when needed without having to worry about agro.

I always live by the creed play what you enjoy the most because it'll get fixed eventually if broken. Forcing yourself to play something you like less for the sake of efficiency (unless you're in a bleeding edge content FC.) is silly.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

-Outside of our tank stance:
(If any of your DPS are pushing over 1200) You might as well forget Royal Authority and spam that Halone because that Drag/Mnk is pulling up on you fast. It's not worth potential agro loss.

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And?

It's the same for a DRK. If a DRK isn't in tank stance, they need to be using power slash quite a bit more often in order to hold threat against any DPS that high. Having to use Power Slash instead of one of the siphon combos (SE/DL) is actually a bigger loss of damage for the DRK than a PLD swapping from RA to RoH. For a DRK, mana is damage. By not using a siphon combo, they're losing out on 1/2 of a DA + SE boost they could have used (about 120 potency over DL).

WAR is the only one that can really hold threat outside of their tank stance without much sacrifice to their offensive power. But that's because they're losing almost all of their mitigation to do this. It's unlikely they'll be using SP and they lose access to IB. PLD keeps all of their other mitigation abilities outside of Shield Oath while the DRK only loses the self heal on SE.

At least this aspect of the 3 tanks seems pretty reasonably balanced.

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

I don\\\\'t mind the concept of MP management at all. I just find the way it\\\\'s implemented on the DRK kinda...clunky? I don\\\\'t know how put it exactly, it just doesn\\\\'t feel like it flows naturally and the MP costs for a lot of spells just seems all over the place. I mean, DA+DP eats up damn near half my MP bar for what, exactly? Grit eats up all that mana for what, exactly? That\\\\'s what I mean by there not being much payoff to it. It doesn\\\\'t feel like it\\\\'s adding anything, it\\\\'s just...there.

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I felt the same at first but now it\\'s so second nature. You get a feel for it. Have done ravana ex with 3 tanks because warrior and dark knight dps are that good lol with 2 healers mind you. You can\\'t be afraid to let your mp sink to 20ish percent. That and really dark mind is the only cd your gonna buff. Dark dance with dark arts is a waste of mp.the biggest problem is tp bleed if you don\\'t have a nin on some fight lol

.... how can any tank have agro issues end game if geared right? maybe gear 1 fending accessory and that's it especially on PLD to we have a shield.
ATM though this is true best MTs either dark or PLD while best OT is war due to slashing debuff no discussion.

you won't run into threat issues if all you do is 123 threat in shield oats

the difficult comes in when you're trying to use sword oath at all with competent DPS.

essentially it's like a double tax on Paladins - their threat combo deals considerably less damage than the other tanks, along with them having no insane snap aggro (dark arts power slash, berserk MAN MODE burst opening), meaning that in spite of royal athority being 340 potency plus sword oath potentially giving comparable DPS on paper, in practice paladins are forced to repeatedly perform far more subpar threat combos than the other tanks, which in turn does less damage than the threat combos of the other two.

^ This. I think they should just increase RoH to 280 or 300 potency.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

you won't run into threat issues if all you do is 123 threat in shield oats

the difficult comes in when you're trying to use sword oath at all with competent DPS.

essentially it's like a double tax on Paladins - their threat combo deals considerably less damage than the other tanks, along with them having no insane snap aggro (dark arts power slash, berserk MAN MODE burst opening), meaning that in spite of royal athority being 340 potency plus sword oath potentially giving comparable DPS on paper, in practice paladins are forced to repeatedly perform far more subpar threat combos than the other tanks, which in turn does less damage than the threat combos of the other two.

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As above, the DRK loses more damage by doing his threat combo than the PLD does when he uses RoH instead of RA. The RA combo also generates more threat than the DRK's siphon combos (including Darkside and the extra damage that siphon's mana drain will give you). Circle of scorn also has a threat modifier.

I fail to see how a PLD in Sword Oath is any worse off on threat generation than a DRK with Grit off.