I Submit for your Perusal ....

A scenario like many others. Low level roulette, Basic Training Enemy Parties.

The party? A conjuror, a rogue, a marauder (new) and an arcanist.

The rogue runs out into the groups of enemies before the tank gets her bearings, pulling all the mobs on him and nearly dying. The marauder does her best to get aggro, but the rogue continues to pull.

The main enemy shows up and the rogue has all the enemies on him. The conjuror refuses to heal the rogue because, well, rogues make poor tanks. The marauder does her best to take control, and the duty ends.

The conjuror points out that rogues make poor tanks, and the rogue agrees saying they are DPS. The conjuror then asks why the rogue tanked if that's the case, and the rogue and arcanist state the tank is new so they wanted to help her.

The conjuror argues they are not helping, they are doing the tank's job while she watches.

The conjuror is called a number of names.

So I ask ... who was in the right? I'm curious to know.

Because a class that does another's job for whatever reason is silly. Giving the excuse they are doing it because the other class is new is stupid as well. If they are new, assist them in learning. Let them experience what they must do.

I don't think the DD had bad intentions but I think the conjuror is right, if SE wanted cross type play they would have made it so - rogue/ninja is not tank in this game and there is no reason except within joke/unsynced low level dungeon runs to behave so.

Besides low levels is a great time to learn your class before everyone rips you a new one for not being awesome :p, imo they took the tank's opportunity to learn by trying to be nice (and they took it from a good environment, later times are a place to learn but one that can lead to name calling faster).

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

Here's an example... a tank doing "hero in halfshell" guildhest manages to grab the turtle, but doesn't move it to the herb sack. All of the players are saying "move the turtle" but the tank doesn't listen.

Do you:
A: fail the duty
B: spam aoe heals to steal enmity from the "tank" and move that turtle over to the herb sack

Another example... the tank in copperbell mines normal is wearing all int gear with a level 5 weapon. He dies in four hits, and can't hold enmity due to spamming riot blade. As a well geared lancer, wearing gear with tank-level defense, you can slam out damage and tank multiple adds without losing enmity.

Do you:
A: allow the mobs to attack the healer who will inevitable pull due to healing the paper tank
B: hit everything and grab as much enmity as possible, allowing the healer to focus on you instead of the wimpy tank

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

Here's an example... a tank doing "hero in halfshell" guildhest manages to grab the turtle, but doesn't move it to the herb sack. All of the players are saying "move the turtle" but the tank doesn't listen.

Do you:
A: fail the duty
B: spam aoe heals to steal enmity from the "tank" and move that turtle over to the herb sack

Another example... the tank in copperbell mines normal is wearing all int gear with a level 5 weapon. He dies in four hits, and can't hold enmity due to spamming riot blade. As a well geared lancer, wearing gear with tank-level defense, you can slam out damage and tank multiple adds without losing enmity.

Do you:
A: allow the mobs to attack the healer who will inevitable pull due to healing the paper tank
B: hit everything and grab as much enmity as possible, allowing the healer to focus on you instead of the wimpy tank

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I think you may come up with special occasions but at least in OP's story, if accurate, the tank didn't get the chance to and was trying to.

So you'd have:

DD runs ahead pulls pack and says "heal me, tank is new"
A. "Tank looks like they'll do fine, stop being weird." (And wasting the healer's resources, they could heal and dd better on the tank)
B. "Ok, lets ignore the tank and let them twiddle their thumbs- maybe even suggest them to go afk"

If the tank is incapable of listening or doing their job you might have to take matter into your own hands; I agree, though again not OP's scenario.

The DPS are in the wrong here. Just because the tank is new is no excuse to pull everything for a "fast" clear. The healer also saying they were wrong only reinforces it; tank had no shot to even attempt to tank, and I feel its fair for the DPS to be called out for their poor behavior.

This kind of behavior is what discourages new tanks. Considering I'm hearing healers are having queues in dungeons again, I'd say this is something we should avoid...

Personally, when I tank, it peeves me off to no end when DPS pull things "for" me. If it was something like Haukke where a ranged/caster is able to grab a single patrol mob that is out of my range, that I don't mind as long as they don't go popping their buffs and going nuts on it so I can't get it off them.

As a healer, unless the DPS is trying on purpose to tick off the tank, or it's a 40+ dungeon where DPS tanking is really taxing on my MP, or if the tank is actually really trying to hold hate and/or take advice from other players in the party; I'll usually not say anything and let the tank decide if this bothers them or not and back them up if they say anything (as long as it's reasonable).

So for this situation, I do think the Rouge was in the wrong for pulling, especially before the tank is ready, but the healer is also in the wrong for refusing to heal (OP said the DPS harassed the healer after the fight was over. If they had been harassing the healer during the battle, then I'd fully agree that refusing to heal the harassers was the right thing to do). The DPS should not be playing tank and telling them so is a fair thing to do, but a Guildhest isn't a long nor particularly hard fight, and refusing to heal based off someone's impatience is rather silly.

ALWAYS let the tank go in first.
There is no excuse for running in before the tank.
You might then pull agro off them, but that shouldn't hurt that much.

If the tank is really really really bad (in cloth armor), they will likely die and they might notice something is wrong, or they will just keep being bad but you will never meet them again...

Whoa, wait a second. We are talking about the FIRST guildhest. I thought you were talking about the THIRD one. How in the blazes do you expect a marauder to "do their job" in the first guildhest?

Back in 2.0, the first guildhest synced to level 12, which meant that a marauder could use their AOE threat move "overpower". A few months later, that guildhest was changed to sync players to level 11, so overpower is no longer available. Only gladiator's "Flash" is available at that level, but an actual new marauder will not have access to that cross-class skill.

So you literally had a tank with no no way of grabbing threat on the 3-5 enemies that appear at a time. Equipped with a two hit combo, it would take around 6 GCD to establish threat... and in that time, your level 11 dps could have killed everything. This is the literal definition of an "every man for himself" moment.

And as for who makes a better tank, rogue or marauder, does it MATTER at level 11? Assuming they were actually around that level... "tank" gear doesn't appear until level 15. So you had a tank with no tank abilities and no tank gear... versus a rogue with no tank abilities or tank gear.

And that last pull? I've seen lots of players that didn't know to enter the purple ring to spawn the enemies. Having a dps do it just to start the fight is no different than having a dps open a door in haukke manor when the tank didn't know how to proceed.

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen someone with a problem on that guildhest. Complain if someone is screwing around at level 15, when every class has their basic abilities (enmity aoe, ranged enmity, single heal, aoe heal, raise, etc), but before that, just finishing the fight should be good enough.

edit: oh man, I just ran that for giggles. Didn't use flash and still maintained enmity because I only had an archer doing auto-attacks and an arcanist who kept resummoning their carbuncle. Give me an overambitious rogue any day.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Whoa, wait a second. We are talking about the FIRST guildhest. I thought you were talking about the THIRD one. How in the blazes do you expect a marauder to "do their job" in the first guildhest?

Back in 2.0, the first guildhest synced to level 12, which meant that a marauder could use their AOE threat move "overpower". A few months later, that guildhest was changed to sync players to level 11, so overpower is no longer available. Only gladiator's "Flash" is available at that level, but an actual new marauder will not have access to that cross-class skill.

So you literally had a tank with no no way of grabbing threat on the 3-5 enemies that appear at a time. Equipped with a two hit combo, it would take around 6 GCD to establish threat... and in that time, your level 11 dps could have killed everything. This is the literal definition of an "every man for himself" moment.

And as for who makes a better tank, rogue or marauder, does it MATTER at level 11? Assuming they were actually around that level... "tank" gear doesn't appear until level 15. So you had a tank with no tank abilities and no tank gear... versus a rogue with no tank abilities or tank gear.

And that last pull? I've seen lots of players that didn't know to enter the purple ring to spawn the enemies. Having a dps do it just to start the fight is no different than having a dps open a door in haukke manor when the tank didn't know how to proceed.

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen someone with a problem on that guildhest. Complain if someone is screwing around at level 15, when every class has their basic abilities (enmity aoe, ranged enmity, single heal, aoe heal, raise, etc), but before that, just finishing the fight should be good enough.

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What you say makes functional sense, but again imo, guildhest and the low level roulette are not for veteran's speed, "does it really matter how if it gets done?", and more about helping lower level players.

For example when I queue for main story, I will not speed run unless requested by the new person or given permission to leave them behind* lol (though if the majority suggest to do so I will encourage the new person to run, but won't make that decision for them). I actually dislike doing the main story queue because people will kick for the older stuff (and leaving someone behind, while viable feels like "why..."), imo, SE should bump that reward up a lot and then just force cutscenes for everyone. *I have done speed runs on Castrum and such but that was when you'd get vote kicked for asking people to wait, so rather I'd keep them in an eternal cutscene freebie if people didn't want to wait (while funny to do the dungeon with 5 people it still felt like SE's problem to fix).

So, even though yeah your blue carby could tank everything on that first one - I don't think it should matter. Other people doing the job of the person trying to learn does not help them and they shouldn't have queued unless they were prepared for a onze of patience. Imo.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

edit: oh man, I just ran that for giggles. Didn't use flash and still maintained enmity because I only had an archer doing auto-attacks and an arcanist who kept resummoning their carbuncle. Give me an overambitious rogue any day.

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XD lol

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Originally Posted by Shougun

snip

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For anything level 15 and above, sure. Give it a serious try until you know that someone in the group is beyond hope. But we are talking about a fight where the new guy can't even understand what he is doing wrong, because he hasn't acquired the "right" moves yet. The only advice you can give the new guy is "you can't do your job properly yet, so just hit stuff quickly with the rest of us".

I still don't understand why they changed that fight. Sure, level 12 made the fight too quick to slam through, but rather than dropping marauder to a level where they can't use a basic move, why didn't they buff the mobs UP one level.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

For anything level 15 and above, sure. Give it a serious try until you know that someone in the group is beyond hope. But we are talking about a fight where the new guy can't even understand what he is doing wrong, because he hasn't acquired the "right" moves yet. The only advice you can give the new guy is "you can't do your job properly yet, so just hit stuff quickly with the rest of us".

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Are you sure they sync you to level 11 now? For a Gladiator it can be a moment to learn pulling groups before actually doing dungeons (and what your hp can do on larger pulls). I remember when I did my warrior I had overpower, and it was helpful to get situated in that guildhest. Of course I didn't need it (not new to games, or MMOs), but Yoshida's general mantra is early stuff is to help the super super new to games.

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

I still don't understand why they changed that fight. Sure, level 12 made the fight too quick to slam through, but rather than dropping marauder to a level where they can't use a basic move, why didn't they buff the mobs UP one level.

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That doesn't make any sense lol. I mean what SE did, your point is excellent and SE should change that if it's true.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Are you sure they sync you to level 11 now?

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I specifically remember running that guildhest when commendations were first released. Slamming overpower at level 12, I could kill the packs of enemies in 3-4 hits by myself. Basically you could pull the first 6, SLAM SLAM SLAM, run into the purple circle, SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM, get a commendation or two, and repeat.

The next minor patch dropped the level sync down to level 11, and it has been that way since. While I only encountered the trick during my daily roulette (I was leveling warrior at the time), I'm sure that people were exploiting that quick guildhest to maximize their commendations and get the rewards immediately.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

I specifically remember running that guildhest when commendations were first released. Slamming overpower at level 12, I could kill the packs of enemies in 3-4 hits by myself. Basically you could pull the first 6, SLAM SLAM SLAM, run into the purple circle, SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM, get a commendation or two, and repeat.

The next minor patch dropped the level sync down to level 11, and it has been that way since. While I only encountered the trick during my daily roulette (I was leveling warrior at the time), I'm sure that people were exploiting that quick guildhest to maximize their commendations and get the rewards immediately.

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As a professional flasher.. xD I did not realize people were so impressed with overpower that it was a commendation generator (although as tank I'm used to getting at least half the coms so maybe I just didn't notice).

If that was the issue they could make an easy fix and stuff a buff into one of the passives. Reduce overpower damage by 50-75%, add to an existing passive buff overpower to original potency (there is a level 14 passive right before a dungeon). Or while a little less intuitive they could add a buff to all the monsters that reduced AoE damage. Either way, lazy and effective = win lol.

I remember taking everything out though and that was pretty cool feeling specially over "Flash", that made me level MRD/WAR to 50 even though I knew I wanted to MT Paladin for all the defense lulz.

Early hests and dungeons it doesn't really matter who does what, anyone can be the tank/healer/dps and it makes very little difference.

I don't agree that's how it should be, if the early dungeons are supposed to be "teaching" new people how stuff is done, showing that anyone can be any role is a bit of a fallacy. imo the early dungeons should be stricter in making people stick to their intended role, and only much later on allowing roles to dip into other territories, with tank/healers throwing in dps, dps helping with mitigation, etc

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

if the early dungeons are supposed to be "teaching" new people how stuff is done, showing that anyone can be any role is a bit of a fallacy.

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Well, the first dungeon is level 15, and I think studies have shown that the average mmo player doesn't get past level 20. You're going to get a lot of people in those first few dungeons that are just on the verge of quitting because the game isn't what they expected from Final Fantasy, and their apathy for learning could inhibit other players from getting further if it was too difficult.

Additionally, you have the issue of a ps3 mmo for which MANY players do not have keyboards, and cannot ask or respond to questions. And the final problem... the game launched with the generic "sword guy" class as a tank. I imagine a lot of people chose sword, thinking that it would be the basic easy class, only to find out that it is one of the more demanding roles due to it's leadership position in dungeons.

I think the first three dungeons are there to inform players it will be THAT type of game, and if the player really doesn't want to learn, they quit before getting past 20. Coordination only starts being a thing in Haukke Manor onwards, which is statistically where you will start seeing only the more serious players.

Ya, if anyone bothers to read the guildhest instructors dialogue, the only way to do it the technically correct way is to have someone with a ranged attack pull the enemies then have the tank pull the enemies off of the person who initiated the fight. You'll notice that you'll get different speech bubbles based on how you do that fight. A Warrior in that fight has neither access to Overpower or their ranged attack, and the instructor tells you not to attack everything all at once. The only other way around this is to have either a DPS or a Healer pull with a ranged attack then have the tank pull hate off of the puller.

The guildhest begins with two groups opposite each other, one on the West side, the other on the East. It's fine, if the tank goes in first here, gets initial hate on the enemy, then proceeds to hit each one to establish and keep hate. In this particular instance it's easier for a PLD since they have flash available, unlike WAR who doesn't have access to their innate overpower, they could still flash technically but that's all dependent on how early they put it in their additional abilities list, and if they're a fresh MRD with no cross class abilities then they obviously can't flash at all. Anyways, once you down those two groups, which your supposed to do separately, then the next group spawns. You do not have to be in the circle to spawn the enemies, the circle is only there to warn you that enemies are about to spawn. The fight can literally be done and completed without moving at all.

In the final set you get the same two groups that spawned earlier but now they're together with a Goobbue. This is where the instructor tells you not to just go head first and berates you initially for doing so if you do. People do it anyways but regardless, if you're trying to do the guildhest as per the instructors instructions, then this is not the correct way. At this last spawn, in order to pull the groups separately without incurring the wrath of the goobbue as well, you need the DPS or Healer to attack them from afar initially, thus "pulling" them to your "camp". That's where, as stated above, the tank can rip hate back. You then down both groups. Once you're done, you take out the goobbue to finish the guildhest. This way the instructor won't disparage you so much, but for anyone who is actually paying attention to the text and puts two and two together, tanks at that level have no way of attacking enemies individually at long range.

So the DPS in this instance weren't incorrect even in their reasoning. The tank is both new, and incapable, of performing the guildhest in the traditional way since they are yet to be equipped with the proper tools to do so. Even if the tank is not new to the guildhest, they would effectively be under-leveled for the content to be done in the standard "tank initiates combat first" scenario that is the de facto standard for group content from the first dungeon onward.

All this goes without saying that, if the only new person is the tank, there is no way in hell you should be losing this fight, no matter what's going on. The healer not healing the DPS in this case is being ignorant of how the run is "supposed" to be played out. If anything, the healer should be initiating aggro with an aero or a stone, pulling the group, then letting the tank secure aggro from there, but at this low a level when it can be done just by facerolling, then just get the guildhest done. It's poorly designed from the get go in that there are only a few situations that I can think of where it's best if anyone other than the tank initiates a fight first and it is generally counter intuitive for how the next 40 some odd levels should be run. In other words, it's not a good way to teach party mechanics if you've designed the rest of the mechanics of the tank classes to work differently for the majority of the game. This combined with people not reading, just leads to the situations outlined in the OP.

But ya, that's only if this is the guildhest you're talking about. You called it Low-Level Roulette: Basic Training Enemy Parties, but it's really a Guildhest Roulette. In all other Low-Level Roulette runs the tank should be initiating the fights. That guildhest is one of the very few exceptions.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Ya, if anyone bothers to read the guildhest instructors dialogue, the only way to do it the technically correct way is to have someone with a ranged attack pull the enemies then have the tank pull the enemies off of the person who initiated the fight. You'll notice that you'll get different speech bubbles based on how you do that fight. A Warrior in that fight has neither access to Overpower or their ranged attack, and the instructor tells you not to attack everything all at once. The only other way around this is to have either a DPS or a Healer pull with a ranged attack then have the tank pull hate off of the puller.

The guildhest begins with two groups opposite each other, one on the West side, the other on the East. It's fine, if the tank goes in first here, gets initial hate on the enemy, then proceeds to hit each one to establish and keep hate. In this particular instance it's easier for a PLD since they have flash available, unlike WAR who doesn't have access to their innate overpower, they could still flash technically but that's all dependent on how early they put it in their additional abilities list, and if they're a fresh MRD with no cross class abilities then they obviously can't flash at all. Anyways, once you down those two groups, which your supposed to do separately, then the next group spawns. You do not have to be in the circle to spawn the enemies, the circle is only there to warn you that enemies are about to spawn. The fight can literally be done and completed without moving at all.

In the final set you get the same two groups that spawned earlier but now they're together with a Goobbue. This is where the instructor tells you not to just go head first and berates you initially for doing so if you do. People do it anyways but regardless, if you're trying to do the guildhest as per the instructors instructions, then this is not the correct way. At this last spawn, in order to pull the groups separately without incurring the wrath of the goobbue as well, you need the DPS or Healer to attack them from afar initially, thus "pulling" them to your "camp". That's where, as stated above, the tank can rip hate back. You then down both groups. Once you're done, you take out the goobbue to finish the guildhest. This way the instructor won't disparage you so much, but for anyone who is actually paying attention to the text and puts two and two together, tanks at that level have no way of attacking enemies individually at long range.

So the DPS in this instance weren't incorrect even in their reasoning. The tank is both new, and incapable, of performing the guildhest in the traditional way since they are yet to be equipped with the proper tools to do so. Even if the tank is not new to the guildhest, they would effectively be under-leveled for the content to be done in the standard "tank initiates combat first" scenario that is the de facto standard for group content from the first dungeon onward.

All this goes without saying that, if the only new person is the tank, there is no way in hell you should be losing this fight, no matter what's going on. The healer not healing the DPS in this case is being ignorant of how the run is "supposed" to be played out. If anything, the healer should be initiating aggro with an aero or a stone, pulling the group, then letting the tank secure aggro from there, but at this low a level when it can be done just by facerolling, then just get the guildhest done. It's poorly designed from the get go in that there are only a few situations that I can think of where it's best if anyone other than the tank initiates a fight first and it is generally counter intuitive for how the next 40 some odd levels should be run. In other words, it's not a good way to teach party mechanics if you've designed the rest of the mechanics of the tank classes to work differently for the majority of the game. This combined with people not reading, just leads to the situations outlined in the OP.

But ya, that's only if this is the guildhest you're talking about. You called it Low-Level Roulette: Basic Training Enemy Parties, but it's really a Guildhest Roulette. In all other Low-Level Roulette runs the tank should be initiating the fights. That guildhest is one of the very few exceptions.

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Wow. +1 for reading it, clearly I didn't. -1 for SE, they failed to teach their point and their point is fairly bad. You can grab a single pack via melee range, no need for ranged attack, and managing packs one at a time makes sense but obviously isn't required in this guildhest so not taught.

If a bard pulled all my packs I'd slap him so hard swift song would play during combat. Jk, ish - I'd ask them to stop, and then if it became a problem I may begin a votekick (I would pick up their adds, letting them die is against my tankhood lol). I aim to get my party to the end of every instance, and I'll do it with speed, but being forced out of cadence is annoying and can prevent the end goal.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

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The conjuror believed that if the rogue runs out and gets killed doing another player's job, then why waste heals on them? They'll just plummet from full to no health constantly because they are not built to tank.


And though the point you are making is correct (in dealing with weird people in low level roulettes) it doesn't justify the reasoning behind it because the 'tank is new so I, as a DPS will do their job for them'.

Thank you though, for everyone's comments on this. It was quite enlightening.

Thought of this when reading this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7873rVbako as healer just don't heal them waste of mp imo.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

Here's an example... a tank doing "hero in halfshell" guildhest manages to grab the turtle, but doesn't move it to the herb sack. All of the players are saying "move the turtle" but the tank doesn't listen.

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I loved spamming medica and fluid aura when i know the tank wants to hold captive the turtle..
NOBODY DARES TO HOLD CAPTIVE MY TURTLE \o/

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

asdf

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It actually taught me how the party UI works to get used to for later content tho since i hadnt had a party.. It has simple small instance area where other players wont leave you to get lost because you're being new..

As much as the first 3 dungeons also taught me better important roles of holy trinity while not really hurting to stick with intended roles.. It's after toto rak that i couldnt really pull as dps/healer anymore, the it starts to get more serious for the rest of the dungeons

If the player is new, guide them through it, not do it for them. Otherwise they will never learn

a lot of em are bots trust me, specially if its a pld

As a healer, if an impatient dps pulls, i just /wave to them as they die and the mob resets, then say in instance chat "You have two choices: Let the tank pull, or leave the duty and suffer the 30 min debuff"

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

As a healer, if an impatient dps pulls, i just /wave to them as they die and the mob resets, then say in instance chat "You have two choices: Let the tank pull, or leave the duty and suffer the 30 min debuff"

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Amen to that. A dps too stupid to understand their role is better off dead, which is definitely what the rogue in the OP is.

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Originally Posted by dank1

a lot of em are bots trust me, specially if its a pld

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Or maybe they are a new player and reading the description? It's pretty damn long, you know?