I Submit for your Perusal ....

[I_Punch_Bees]

A scenario like many others. Low level roulette, Basic Training Enemy Parties.

The party? A conjuror, a rogue, a marauder (new) and an arcanist.

The rogue runs out into the groups of enemies before the tank gets her bearings, pulling all the mobs on him and nearly dying. The marauder does her best to get aggro, but the rogue continues to pull.

The main enemy shows up and the rogue has all the enemies on him. The conjuror refuses to heal the rogue because, well, rogues make poor tanks. The marauder does her best to take control, and the duty ends.

The conjuror points out that rogues make poor tanks, and the rogue agrees saying they are DPS. The conjuror then asks why the rogue tanked if that's the case, and the rogue and arcanist state the tank is new so they wanted to help her.

The conjuror argues they are not helping, they are doing the tank's job while she watches.

The conjuror is called a number of names.

So I ask ... who was in the right? I'm curious to know.

Because a class that does another's job for whatever reason is silly. Giving the excuse they are doing it because the other class is new is stupid as well. If they are new, assist them in learning. Let them experience what they must do.

[Shougun]

I don't think the DD had bad intentions but I think the conjuror is right, if SE wanted cross type play they would have made it so - rogue/ninja is not tank in this game and there is no reason except within joke/unsynced low level dungeon runs to behave so.

Besides low levels is a great time to learn your class before everyone rips you a new one for not being awesome , imo they took the tank's opportunity to learn by trying to be nice (and they took it from a good environment, later times are a place to learn but one that can lead to name calling faster).

[Gunspec]

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

Here's an example... a tank doing "hero in halfshell" guildhest manages to grab the turtle, but doesn't move it to the herb sack. All of the players are saying "move the turtle" but the tank doesn't listen.

Do you:
A: fail the duty
B: spam aoe heals to steal enmity from the "tank" and move that turtle over to the herb sack

Another example... the tank in copperbell mines normal is wearing all int gear with a level 5 weapon. He dies in four hits, and can't hold enmity due to spamming riot blade. As a well geared lancer, wearing gear with tank-level defense, you can slam out damage and tank multiple adds without losing enmity.

Do you:
A: allow the mobs to attack the healer who will inevitable pull due to healing the paper tank
B: hit everything and grab as much enmity as possible, allowing the healer to focus on you instead of the wimpy tank

[Shougun]

Um... as someone who regularly heal-tanks sub-level 20 content, as long as it gets the job done and doesn't take too long, anything goes. You get a lot of weird people in low level stuff, from tanks in cloth using nothing but riot blade, to thaumaturges that do nothing but spam blizzard I. I'll give pointers if it seems I might be listented to, but more often than not these folks just keep pressing whatever buttons they like.

And how in the name of god does a conjurer let someone die in the mentioned guildhest? I've run that entire place without even using a single heal, just spamming stone and aero.

Here's an example... a tank doing "hero in halfshell" guildhest manages to grab the turtle, but doesn't move it to the herb sack. All of the players are saying "move the turtle" but the tank doesn't listen.

Do you:
A: fail the duty
B: spam aoe heals to steal enmity from the "tank" and move that turtle over to the herb sack

Another example... the tank in copperbell mines normal is wearing all int gear with a level 5 weapon. He dies in four hits, and can't hold enmity due to spamming riot blade. As a well geared lancer, wearing gear with tank-level defense, you can slam out damage and tank multiple adds without losing enmity.

Do you:
A: allow the mobs to attack the healer who will inevitable pull due to healing the paper tank
B: hit everything and grab as much enmity as possible, allowing the healer to focus on you instead of the wimpy tank

I think you may come up with special occasions but at least in OP's story, if accurate, the tank didn't get the chance to and was trying to.

So you'd have:

DD runs ahead pulls pack and says "heal me, tank is new"
A. "Tank looks like they'll do fine, stop being weird." (And wasting the healer's resources, they could heal and dd better on the tank)
B. "Ok, lets ignore the tank and let them twiddle their thumbs- maybe even suggest them to go afk"

If the tank is incapable of listening or doing their job you might have to take matter into your own hands; I agree, though again not OP's scenario.

[PArcher]

The DPS are in the wrong here. Just because the tank is new is no excuse to pull everything for a "fast" clear. The healer also saying they were wrong only reinforces it; tank had no shot to even attempt to tank, and I feel its fair for the DPS to be called out for their poor behavior.

This kind of behavior is what discourages new tanks. Considering I'm hearing healers are having queues in dungeons again, I'd say this is something we should avoid...

[Selli]

Personally, when I tank, it peeves me off to no end when DPS pull things "for" me. If it was something like Haukke where a ranged/caster is able to grab a single patrol mob that is out of my range, that I don't mind as long as they don't go popping their buffs and going nuts on it so I can't get it off them.

As a healer, unless the DPS is trying on purpose to tick off the tank, or it's a 40+ dungeon where DPS tanking is really taxing on my MP, or if the tank is actually really trying to hold hate and/or take advice from other players in the party; I'll usually not say anything and let the tank decide if this bothers them or not and back them up if they say anything (as long as it's reasonable).

So for this situation, I do think the Rouge was in the wrong for pulling, especially before the tank is ready, but the healer is also in the wrong for refusing to heal (OP said the DPS harassed the healer after the fight was over. If they had been harassing the healer during the battle, then I'd fully agree that refusing to heal the harassers was the right thing to do). The DPS should not be playing tank and telling them so is a fair thing to do, but a Guildhest isn't a long nor particularly hard fight, and refusing to heal based off someone's impatience is rather silly.

[sirDarts]

ALWAYS let the tank go in first.
There is no excuse for running in before the tank.
You might then pull agro off them, but that shouldn't hurt that much.

If the tank is really really really bad (in cloth armor), they will likely die and they might notice something is wrong, or they will just keep being bad but you will never meet them again...

[Gunspec]

Whoa, wait a second. We are talking about the FIRST guildhest. I thought you were talking about the THIRD one. How in the blazes do you expect a marauder to "do their job" in the first guildhest?

Back in 2.0, the first guildhest synced to level 12, which meant that a marauder could use their AOE threat move "overpower". A few months later, that guildhest was changed to sync players to level 11, so overpower is no longer available. Only gladiator's "Flash" is available at that level, but an actual new marauder will not have access to that cross-class skill.

So you literally had a tank with no no way of grabbing threat on the 3-5 enemies that appear at a time. Equipped with a two hit combo, it would take around 6 GCD to establish threat... and in that time, your level 11 dps could have killed everything. This is the literal definition of an "every man for himself" moment.

And as for who makes a better tank, rogue or marauder, does it MATTER at level 11? Assuming they were actually around that level... "tank" gear doesn't appear until level 15. So you had a tank with no tank abilities and no tank gear... versus a rogue with no tank abilities or tank gear.

And that last pull? I've seen lots of players that didn't know to enter the purple ring to spawn the enemies. Having a dps do it just to start the fight is no different than having a dps open a door in haukke manor when the tank didn't know how to proceed.

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen someone with a problem on that guildhest. Complain if someone is screwing around at level 15, when every class has their basic abilities (enmity aoe, ranged enmity, single heal, aoe heal, raise, etc), but before that, just finishing the fight should be good enough.

edit: oh man, I just ran that for giggles. Didn't use flash and still maintained enmity because I only had an archer doing auto-attacks and an arcanist who kept resummoning their carbuncle. Give me an overambitious rogue any day.

[Shougun]

Whoa, wait a second. We are talking about the FIRST guildhest. I thought you were talking about the THIRD one. How in the blazes do you expect a marauder to "do their job" in the first guildhest?

Back in 2.0, the first guildhest synced to level 12, which meant that a marauder could use their AOE threat move "overpower". A few months later, that guildhest was changed to sync players to level 11, so overpower is no longer available. Only gladiator's "Flash" is available at that level, but an actual new marauder will not have access to that cross-class skill.

So you literally had a tank with no no way of grabbing threat on the 3-5 enemies that appear at a time. Equipped with a two hit combo, it would take around 6 GCD to establish threat... and in that time, your level 11 dps could have killed everything. This is the literal definition of an "every man for himself" moment.

And as for who makes a better tank, rogue or marauder, does it MATTER at level 11? Assuming they were actually around that level... "tank" gear doesn't appear until level 15. So you had a tank with no tank abilities and no tank gear... versus a rogue with no tank abilities or tank gear.

And that last pull? I've seen lots of players that didn't know to enter the purple ring to spawn the enemies. Having a dps do it just to start the fight is no different than having a dps open a door in haukke manor when the tank didn't know how to proceed.

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen someone with a problem on that guildhest. Complain if someone is screwing around at level 15, when every class has their basic abilities (enmity aoe, ranged enmity, single heal, aoe heal, raise, etc), but before that, just finishing the fight should be good enough.

What you say makes functional sense, but again imo, guildhest and the low level roulette are not for veteran's speed, "does it really matter how if it gets done?", and more about helping lower level players.

For example when I queue for main story, I will not speed run unless requested by the new person or given permission to leave them behind* lol (though if the majority suggest to do so I will encourage the new person to run, but won't make that decision for them). I actually dislike doing the main story queue because people will kick for the older stuff (and leaving someone behind, while viable feels like "why..."), imo, SE should bump that reward up a lot and then just force cutscenes for everyone. *I have done speed runs on Castrum and such but that was when you'd get vote kicked for asking people to wait, so rather I'd keep them in an eternal cutscene freebie if people didn't want to wait (while funny to do the dungeon with 5 people it still felt like SE's problem to fix).

So, even though yeah your blue carby could tank everything on that first one - I don't think it should matter. Other people doing the job of the person trying to learn does not help them and they shouldn't have queued unless they were prepared for a onze of patience. Imo.

edit: oh man, I just ran that for giggles. Didn't use flash and still maintained enmity because I only had an archer doing auto-attacks and an arcanist who kept resummoning their carbuncle. Give me an overambitious rogue any day.

XD lol

[Gunspec]

snip

For anything level 15 and above, sure. Give it a serious try until you know that someone in the group is beyond hope. But we are talking about a fight where the new guy can't even understand what he is doing wrong, because he hasn't acquired the "right" moves yet. The only advice you can give the new guy is "you can't do your job properly yet, so just hit stuff quickly with the rest of us".

I still don't understand why they changed that fight. Sure, level 12 made the fight too quick to slam through, but rather than dropping marauder to a level where they can't use a basic move, why didn't they buff the mobs UP one level.