Paladin Suggestions

Part 1. Rage of Halone
So Rage of Halone was developed as an all purpose attack, the only three hit combo a paladin had. While it lagged behind a Warriors butchers block in terms of potency, because you 'spammed' this ability, the general threat out put a Paladin was putting out was about parity with a Warrior whom was also using other combos. The single ability has a partly 240 potency for a 3rd hit, but had bonus aggro and a debuff tied in. It worked very well in a single combo paradigm.

Turning to a muti combo paradigm, and things differ---Rage of Halone lags behind very good dps, and while Paladins have other combos, rage is not generating enough aggro to allow for Paladins to more freely use other combos and retain aggro. An easy example of this is that both Warriors and Dark Knights can hold aggro just fine with their basic aggro combo with their tank stances turned off, while using other combos as needed. A paladin cannot do this in sword oath--generally reduced to spamming rages inefficiently if wanting to 'offensively tank'. You might say 'well that isnt a role for them' and that is fine--I dont disagree with the view point, but this still wells up in defensive stances. Where a Dark knight can use an aggro combo 'as needed' and a warrior can do the same with a butchers block here or there, a paladin is basically required to fit in rage of halone into at best a 3 finisher rotation. The solutions for this are generally things like 'bring a ninja' or 'have less good dps' or 'stack strength' but these are not as necessary for other tanks (which to note, I've leveled all 3 to 60, I like all 3 of them as well).

Of course having 1 ability that does 3 things (extra emnity, a debuff and damage) isnt going to fly. The solution is not merely 'buff rage of halone.

Suggestion:
Increase Savage Blades Potency from 200 to 220 (in line with Spinning Slash).
Increase Potency of Rage of Halone from 240 to 250(inferior to other classes threat builders still, but not as stinging for the Paladin)
Remove Shield Swipe from GCD. Remove Pacification. Shield Swipe cannot proc within 5 seconds of having been used.
The Added damage from Sword Oath is effected by the triggering abilities increased emnity if present (i.e a rage of halones 'extra sword oath' damage is also treated to have increased enmity).


Part 2. AoE Tanking
A terrible aspect for Paladins is how -bad- they are at AoE Threat in general. Flash spam is generally not useful, and only makes monsters quickly immune to blind (if they are even affected by it) and does nothing for dps where War and Drk contribute. This is not to say Paladins should have excellent or even comparable AoE DPS---only that theres is -so- terrible it could use a look at.

Suggestions:
Circle of Judgement: New Trait for Circle of Wrath. If 3 or more targets are struck by Circle of Scorn, the cool down is reduced by 10 seconds. This drops it from 25 to 15, which basically allows for it to be reapplied just as the DOT ticks off.
Flash: While in Shield Oath, Flash a 1.3x threat multiplier (currently 1.1x). While in Sword Oath, Flash deals damage equal to 100 potency, but looses blind. This gives OT paladins some aoe damage, and helps MT paladins generate a little more aoe threat to not lag so far behind.

Part 3. Self Healing and Utility

Paladin has great utility. No one will dispute that--but some of that utility is very clunky, hard to use, and has multiple hurdles to achieve. This is not an attempt to make Paladin easy mode, but acknowledging where certain things could be better for gameplay.

1: The casting time on clemency.
---You cannot parry or block during this. This seems out of flavor for a paladin.
---Very very prone to interruptions in anything higher than dungeons. If you take 20% of more of your health in damage, you are interrupted, so what seemed great leveling up will become harder to use in things like alex extreme.
---Slowness of cast means most healing on self or others results in an over heal because healers will always out pace you.

Suggestion: Remove the cast time, and make it a GCD power (not oGCD like Wars). This means it will eat up 2.5 seconds (as opposed to 3 sec cast) but allows
A) Skill Speed to affect it. This seems more logical than spell speed which is on no tank gear.
B) It cannot be interrupted, and hits the target faster.

Keep in mind, Clemency is a spell that consumes about half your mp bar--and takes a while to recover (Paladin mana recovery is not, nor should it be, comparable to Darks--but just because these forums are full of Dark Knights, keep in mind it takes a paladin much longer to recover from mana usage in combat. Yes even with sheltron).
Obviously potency may be adjusted, mana cost may be adjusted, since it may not perform in the same light in which it was balanced.

2. Divine Veil is nice...kind of.
Having an ability we trigger that really requires a macro for others to then...really trigger is strange. This should be left to the paladins skill and determination. It would be nice if the trigger was removed requiring an external heal, and 'maybe' if it effects the paladin (this last bit, hardly required--but it be nice).

Part 4. Stances
Do I want buffs for stances? God no.

Warriors enjoy the ability to change stances without a cost, ogcd and without breaking their skill chains. I feel frankly, while the mana cost can remain, that Paladins and DRK should be able to change stances on and off without consuming a GCD and instead incur the 10 sec CD like warriors have.

In addition, Shield Slam breaks skill chains and is overly penalizing. No stuns elsewhere in the game do this, and while shield slam can be repeated (largely irrelevant outside of t5 and a3) and already costs a huge amount of tp.

Part 5. Smaller Suggestions

Blind (Also Effects DRK). This used to effect EX content, until Titan EX where blind was able to make table flips miss targets, which SE hated. The answer was making all raid content from that point immune---heavy handed I believe.

I would like to propose that blind affect 'all' targets in the game but that blind itself be nerfed to only affect non-ability (i.e, Auto Attack) damage. This allows blind to provide Dark and Paladins some mitigation, but not in a method that invalidates key mechanics, tank busters and more.

That is all:)

Feel free to tear it apart.

Divine Veil needs a second animation when it is triggered

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

Divine Veil needs a second animation when it is triggered

---

Sure, or just---dont have a trigger.

Paladin hits a button. Everyone around them gets a shield. What is wrong with that?

Healers are so focused on bars in the middle of a fight, that I doubt adding an animation for the trigger is going to make a big difference, although as a point robustness--I agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Sure, or just---dont have a trigger.

Paladin hits a button. Everyone around them gets a shield. What is wrong with that?

---

Because that is literally WHM stoneskin. Actually no, better, because instant cast and usable in combat.

Secondly it's a strong ability if done right, and the trigger I feel allows for it to be as strong as it is. Idk, I feel like if it was easy to activate they would nerf the potency, since it is already instant cast.

That shit does need a second animation though, or at least a distinctive sound. Just so healers know that something happened. It could be just like how stone skin or protect PPP up for a sec when they activate. There are times in heavy fights when I as the tank don't know if it went off.

I actually find triggering it to be easy. You know when you are about to get healed especially in Ravana and Alexander.

The problem I have with DV is other people even realizing they have it.

love the post and i couldnt agree more on all points.

I main pally now since beta and currently I am 186 about to hit savage and I feel if I go sword oath to contribute some extra dps as main tank on some pulls I must have a ninja.

All your suggestions are spot on and they really need to look at pally and make some minor changes over time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Part 1. Rage of Halone
So Rage of Halone was developed as an all purpose attack, the only three hit combo a paladin had. While it lagged behind a Warriors butchers block in terms of potency, because you 'spammed' this ability, the general threat out put a Paladin was putting out was about parity with a Warrior whom was also using other combos. The single ability has a partly 240 potency for a 3rd hit, but had bonus aggro and a debuff tied in. It worked very well in a single combo paradigm.

Turning to a muti combo paradigm, and things differ---Rage of Halone lags behind very good dps, and while Paladins have other combos, rage is not generating enough aggro to allow for Paladins to more freely use other combos and retain aggro. An easy example of this is that both Warriors and Dark Knights can hold aggro just fine with their basic aggro combo with their tank stances turned off, while using other combos as needed. A paladin cannot do this in sword oath--generally reduced to spamming rages inefficiently if wanting to 'offensively tank'. You might say 'well that isnt a role for them' and that is fine--I dont disagree with the view point, but this still wells up in defensive stances. Where a Dark knight can use an aggro combo 'as needed' and a warrior can do the same with a butchers block here or there, a paladin is basically required to fit in rage of halone into at best a 3 finisher rotation. The solutions for this are generally things like 'bring a ninja' or 'have less good dps' or 'stack strength' but these are not as necessary for other tanks (which to note, I've leveled all 3 to 60, I like all 3 of them as well).

Of course having 1 ability that does 3 things (extra emnity, a debuff and damage) isnt going to fly. The solution is not merely 'buff rage of halone.

Suggestion:
Increase Savage Blades Potency from 200 to 220 (in line with Spinning Slash).
Increase Potency of Rage of Halone from 240 to 250(inferior to other classes threat builders still, but not as stinging for the Paladin)
Remove Shield Swipe from GCD. Remove Pacification. Shield Swipe cannot proc within 5 seconds of having been used.
The Added damage from Sword Oath is effected by the triggering abilities increased emnity if present (i.e a rage of halones 'extra sword oath' damage is also treated to have increased enmity).

---

Off to a bad start, huh? Okay, Rage of Halone is our Enmity rotation, we got that fact down. It applies a defensive debuff to our target, we got that down. The potency isn't as high as the other tank 3rd hit enmity combos. SE has specifically stated that Paladins do less damage in turn for better defensive capabilities, hence why our 3rd hit enmity combo not only does fair damage and cause enmity, but also lowers the strength of our enemy. Your bit about dropping into sword oath. Is this while you're MT? WHY? Leave the stance dancing to the classes that have the non-GCD triggering stances. Paladins generally change stances before or after a tank swap depending on if they are going from OT to MT or MT to OT. Why anyone would willingly switch to Sword Oath while MT and lose their 20% damage reduction is beyond me, but I've seen stupider things happen.

Another thing, all these people asking for Shield Swipe to be off the global cooldown, and they don't even realize that we use this skill as a means to preserve and recover TP. What are you going to do when your 40 TP skill is now off the GCD and you're beating it out on top of your 60 or 70 TP skills in half the time? Run out of TP even faster. Your suggestion for Shield Swipe just makes the skill that much less advantageous to use. Sure, remove the pacification, but leave the global cooldown trigger. If you're really having so much problem with enmity, this is the skill you should look at for increasing it. We have already been given increased Enmity on the skill, so where you should look to increase potency is here. Increasing it from 210 to something like 240 would be perfect. Increasing the potency on Rage of Halone just means that when we OT, we have a better chance of still ripping agro, which I should add, I have done on several occasions already against both Warriors and Dark Knights in equivalent gear as me WHILE IN SWORD OATH even. Applying a potency boost to Shield Swipe allows for us to increase our potency more when we are MT without affecting our OT potency. Further, putting any kind of cooldown LONGER than global on Shield Swipe just means our TP regeneration from it when we pop Bulwark is lessened. The skill needs to be either left alone, or if changed, given more potency, lose the pacification and the TP cost, but otherwise be left unchanged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Part 2. AoE Tanking
A terrible aspect for Paladins is how -bad- they are at AoE Threat in general. Flash spam is generally not useful, and only makes monsters quickly immune to blind (if they are even affected by it) and does nothing for dps where War and Drk contribute. This is not to say Paladins should have excellent or even comparable AoE DPS---only that theres is -so- terrible it could use a look at.

Suggestions:
Circle of Judgement: New Trait for Circle of Wrath. If 3 or more targets are struck by Circle of Scorn, the cool down is reduced by 10 seconds. This drops it from 25 to 15, which basically allows for it to be reapplied just as the DOT ticks off.
Flash: While in Shield Oath, Flash a 1.3x threat multiplier (currently 1.1x). While in Sword Oath, Flash deals damage equal to 100 potency, but looses blind. This gives OT paladins some aoe damage, and helps MT paladins generate a little more aoe threat to not lag so far behind.

---

While I see a desire for an AOE damage spam, I don't recognize the necessity for it. This is an aspect of both Warrior and Dark Knight that I am fine living without. We already have Circle of Scorn, and while it doesn't last the full duration of its cooldown, I don't feel like we have missed out on anything. We already provide enough AOE enmity to keep hate away from DPS and healers. The necessity to keep it away from other tanks simply isn't there. If I lose enmity to a Warrior or a Dark Knight, then I let them have it and just peel the mobs that will do the most damage away from them with RoH so that instead of them dealing with 8 enemies at once with one slamming them for 3k, They just have 7 that might hit for a total of 3k, and I take the one that would shrek them otherwise. If anything, I could see lowering the cooldown on Circle of Scorn to be in line with its duration, but don't introduce some complicated numbers game that I know SE would rather keep away from having to code for. Cooldown decreases are much easier to code for, and thus would be simpler to introduce. However, that's the only change I could see implementing. Adding damage to flash while OT is just too similar to DRK's Unleash for me to actually feel any real difference between the two except for your stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Part 3. Self Healing and Utility

Paladin has great utility. No one will dispute that--but some of that utility is very clunky, hard to use, and has multiple hurdles to achieve. This is not an attempt to make Paladin easy mode, but acknowledging where certain things could be better for gameplay.

1: The casting time on clemency.
---You cannot parry or block during this. This seems out of flavor for a paladin.
---Very very prone to interruptions in anything higher than dungeons. If you take 20% of more of your health in damage, you are interrupted, so what seemed great leveling up will become harder to use in things like alex extreme.
---Slowness of cast means most healing on self or others results in an over heal because healers will always out pace you.

Suggestion: Remove the cast time, and make it a GCD power (not oGCD like Wars). This means it will eat up 2.5 seconds (as opposed to 3 sec cast) but allows
A) Skill Speed to affect it. This seems more logical than spell speed which is on no tank gear.
B) It cannot be interrupted, and hits the target faster.

Keep in mind, Clemency is a spell that consumes about half your mp bar--and takes a while to recover (Paladin mana recovery is not, nor should it be, comparable to Darks--but just because these forums are full of Dark Knights, keep in mind it takes a paladin much longer to recover from mana usage in combat. Yes even with sheltron).
Obviously potency may be adjusted, mana cost may be adjusted, since it may not perform in the same light in which it was balanced.

2. Divine Veil is nice...kind of.
Having an ability we trigger that really requires a macro for others to then...really trigger is strange. This should be left to the paladins skill and determination. It would be nice if the trigger was removed requiring an external heal, and 'maybe' if it effects the paladin (this last bit, hardly required--but it be nice).

---

PLD's MP recovery may not be as strong as DRK's, however our MP usage is also vastly lower. First, Flash consumes less MP than Unleash. Second, we have a distinct lack of MP consuming skills beyond Clemency, Flash, Stoneskin, and Cure (lol). So making an argument based on MP recovery is flawed due to the fact that we simply don't require MP for things like the DRK does. Between the steep cost of Dark Arts, the high cost on several skills, as well as the continuous drain of MP while under Darkside, DRK eats through MP even faster than BLMs while lacking the massive MP recovery that comes from Umbral dancing. So we don't have any trouble casting a Clemency and then immediately recovering the full cost within less than 15 seconds. Clemency is in fact quite easy to use regularly. Most auto attacks from bosses and mobs won't actually break the cast, and if you time the cast appropriately, even skills won't break it due to the ability to clip cast, much the same way Black Mages and Summoners can clip cast to finish spells and move out of AOEs at the same time. Yes, it's a long cast time, but that's the cost of using the spell. Further, this spell, unlike Equilibrium, can be used on other targets, and ALWAYS heals, where Equilibrium either heals or it recovers TP depending on the Warrior's stance, but never does both. Further, the full benefit from Clemency comes from being cast on another target, and results in half the healing also being applied to you. This means that this spell, which in proper gear can crit for 6-7k, will also at the same time heal you for 3-3.5k, resulting in a net healing total of 9-10.5k. No other cast time heal in the entire game can boast such numbers except for maybe a crit cure 2 on a Warrior with Defiance + Convalescence + Divine Seal. But I have crit healed for that without ANY buffs. If you're having trouble casting this spell, then that's simply a balance for the high healing, the low cooldown, and the high, but completely recoverable MP cost. The ONLY change I could see making to Clemency is having it trigger Divine Veil. As far as DV goes, nothing really needs to change. It's already an amazing skill that shines in a well coordinated group. Or, as in my case, when your healer is in the same room as you are IRL. But that's what chat services are for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Part 4. Smaller Suggestions

Blind (Also Effects DRK). This used to effect EX content, until Titan EX where blind was able to make table flips miss targets, which SE hated. The answer was making all raid content from that point immune---heavy handed I believe.

I would like to propose that blind affect 'all' targets in the game but that blind itself be nerfed to only affect non-ability (i.e, Auto Attack) damage. This allows blind to provide Dark and Paladins some mitigation, but not in a method that invalidates key mechanics, tank busters and more.

That is all:)

Feel free to tear it apart.

---

This I can agree with, as long as this is the same case with all named skills across the entire game. This would mean that any named skill would not be effected by blind. This goes for trash mobs too. However, the diminishing returns need to stay.

EDIT: To give you an idea of what I do while tanking: I have two rotations. One while MT, one while OT. As MT, I ONLY use Rage of Halone and Goring Blade rotations. The reason for this is because while MT, I also use Shield Swipe whenever possible, which helps me recover TP, generates Enmity even during my Goring Blade combo, and allows me to utilize the full duration of both the strength decrease and the DOT. I can almost always count on blocking 3 or 4 attacks in the duration of either of these debuffs. This rotation obviously changes when I'm against magical bosses though, and includes the usage of Royal Authority then. However, since most bosses in the game are still physical damagers, I generally stick to this rotation. However, as the off tank, I make use of all three combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Remove Shield Swipe from GCD.

---

I used to hate Shield swipe but after getting back into leveling my PLD I like it as it is now since it helps space out your TP Heavy utility moves like Shield lob and Shield bash that way you can mix in shield bashes on trash mobs and stun them for 6 seconds taking less damage at the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Part 2. AoE Tanking

---

I kinda figured flash was suppose to be used in sets in correlation to the blind timer since you can fit in 3 flashes before it resets to a reduced 2nd flash timer and then 2 then and then one before immunity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sentenza

I kinda figured flash was suppose to be used in sets in correlation to the blind timer since you can fit in 3 flashes before it resets to a reduced 2nd flash timer and then 2 then and then one before immunity

---

Somebody actually gets it, kind of. Flash can be spammed, but that's the quickest way to go OOM as a Paladin. I like to cycle it into my goring blade combo, and apply goring blade to multiple targets. Essentially, Flash, Fast Blade, Flash, Riot Blade, Flash, Goring Blade, Switch Target, Fast Blade, Flash, Riot Blade, Flash, Goring Blade, Switch Target, etc. Usually results in the first target's Goring Blade falling off just as I get back to reapplying it to them. I also don't Flash if I have Circle of Scorn up. Instead, I'll use Circle of Scorn, then immediately continue my combo rotation. So, something like this happens. Flash, Fast Blade, Circle of Scorn, Riot Blade, Flash, Goring Blade, Switch target, Fast Blade, Flash... and so on.

I think their issue and the issue you are likely to run into is that Flash can reapply the blind debuff and cause duration clipping. If you flash and apply the 10 second debuff, then flash again at about 4 seconds left on the debuff, it will be reapplied as 5 seconds, and that 4 seconds you had left will be clipped off. This is one of the reasons I stagger flashes in my rotation. The first flash applies the 10 seconds, then the second one applies nothing, because the duration on the current blind is about 7 seconds, and the duration it is trying to apply is 5 seconds, so it doesn't apply. Then, the third flash after Riot Blade usually comes along right at about the 1 second mark, where the first Flash is about to fall off. So this one applies another 5 seconds of Blind. So then, I use Goring Blade and usually Circle of Scorn here too, switch target, and then use Fast Blade. By the time my fourth flash is coming, the blind from the third is about to or has fallen off, so it gets the full 2 second duration, which is barely enough to maybe cause one or two skills to miss. After that, it's "who cares anymore, just give me more enmity" or, more likely by this point, the mobs are quickly doing down, and I'm just cycling my Goring Blade Combo to everything and watching them all die while recovering my MP for the next pull.

@Ceodore

If you play PLD at an average lvl then yes its probably fine.

PLDs flaws are apparent when you start playing with top end DPS, healers and tanks.

Of course PLDs stance dance while MTing, why wouldn't we? We have a plethora of defensive CDs we can rotate while in sword oath. WARs and DRKs can sit in their offensive stance doing maximum DPS while maintaining hate. PLDs are stuck with Halone spam to keep hate off the OT and DPS. (SwO)

Our AoE DPS is nil. Yes, flash can hold hate off DPS and Healers, but on turns like A2, why even bring a PLD?

Turns like A1 our WAR can MT and push close to 900 dps, my PLD is stuck in the 700 range. That's a problem in job design. Turns like A4 PLD has zero defensive advantage but are a huge DPS loss which makes the turn harder. PLDs are supposed to be more defensive but then they make encounters where none of our advantages work.

Sheltron - good design, but now PLD is king of physical tank busters (if they add any)
Clemency - garbage, too slow, too much MP, if you are finding a use for this move (besides solo use) then you need better healers
Divine Veil - better then most people give it credit but not needed
Goring blade - awesome, needs a hate bonus
Royal - awesome, needs a hate bonus

Meh ill pop DV on ravana. Since an aoe cure is going out anyways to top ppl off. Its not a bad ability, but not great. Situational

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

@Ceodore

If you play PLD at an average lvl then yes its probably fine.

PLDs flaws are apparent when you start playing with top end DPS, healers and tanks.

Of course PLDs stance dance while MTing, why wouldn't we? We have a plethora of defensive CDs we can rotate while in sword oath. WARs and DRKs can sit in their offensive stance doing maximum DPS while maintaining hate. PLDs are stuck with Halone spam to keep hate off the OT and DPS. (SwO)

Our AoE DPS is nil. Yes, flash can hold hate off DPS and Healers, but on turns like A2, why even bring a PLD?

Turns like A1 our WAR can MT and push close to 900 dps, my PLD is stuck in the 700 range. That's a problem in job design. Turns like A4 PLD has zero defensive advantage but are a huge DPS loss which makes the turn harder. PLDs are supposed to be more defensive but then they make encounters where none of our advantages work.

Sheltron - good design, but now PLD is king of physical tank busters (if they add any)
Clemency - garbage, too slow, too much MP, if you are finding a use for this move (besides solo use) then you need better healers
Divine Veil - better then most people give it credit but not needed
Goring blade - awesome, needs a hate bonus
Royal - awesome, needs a hate bonus

---

I've also ran all these turns. In A4, it's actually better if the PLD OTs, since they will get thrown into the other room with the PHYSICAL damaging add. Our CDs are much more appropriate for this than MTing the boss. Also, a difference in DPS have been stated as being intentional by SE between Paladin and the other tanks. This was on purpose by design. We also have less AOE damage, yes, but that's also why there are heavy hitting single target enemies in the A2 fight as well which are better tanked by a Paladin who can put out still decent single target damage while everyone AOEs down the big group of Jagd Dolls being handled by the tank who can actually pull larger numbers on so many targets. Just because a tank doesn't perform every task as well as every other tank doesn't mean they need to, it means you utilize them to their fullest potential on what they CAN perform well on. For instance, on A2, when I have the single big spider enemy, I can then time my Clemency better to also heal the other tank who is taking a load to the face from several enemies at once. Even with two healers who can handle the damage, it also helps relieve them some so they can actually heal me as well or a dps who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or to just make their job a little easier. Just because I do help them doesn't make them bad, it just means that much more of a safety cushion for finishing the fight.

Who knows, perhaps there will be tank crunches soon in maybe Alexander Savage. No one is sure, because no one actually knows. So I would calm down and "look forward to it"

Rage of Halone is 260 potency, not 240.

Wrote it at work and was going off the top of my head. 260! Yep!

To which, I dont think rage of halone needs so much of a buff, but Savage Blade does since its shared in both rotations. Sword Oaths damage should also gain a hate bonus while using hate moves (both darks and warrior get this with their always on damage bonuses when they drop tank stance, allowing them to tank while in offensive stance. Paladin can't really do this to any degree.


Clemency being a GCD (non spell) would be great. Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

And the comparison to Divine Veil and Stone Shield is a bit strange, given one has 150 second cooldown and the other has none? Of course a 2.5 minute cd is better than an ability you can use at will? Sentinel is better than Rampart for the same reason ^_^

And per what was said, Yes Paladins wont know any issues unless you are in a progress guild and are tanking off top end dps/OT's that are pushing the limit. Keeping hate off a ot warriors that is throwing out a BB every 3 rotations is kind of eye opening----you become a slave to rage of halone at that point--nothing as satisfying as getting 2 new combos and realizing you are a slave to 2.0's 1-2-3 combo with a goring after ever few.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Shield Swipe being an oGCD would be a great change.

---

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OnizukaBR

New animation for flash and give it 10 potency xD, man it is really boring spamming flash doing 0 damage and have a lame animation. War and Drk are so much cooler tanking packs of mobs

---

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

Why do people never see the issue with this when it comes to TP management? It baffles me every time.

---

13 tp per shield is not really tp management. You are better off just throwing out a flash, getting the full tp of a gcd and throwing that tp into a goring blade combo? The average damage / average tp cost is not in shield swipes favor. The only time swipe is better is if you want get extra hate in the middle of a dps combo and think spending the gcd on it is somehow worth while. You regen 50 tp over 3 seconds. A gcd is 2.5--add some lag for 3, shield swipe costs 40 vs 63 (average of other combos). You gain back a MASSIVE 13 every time you swipe. Swipe 10 times for 130 tp over a fight, or just flash three times for 150 that you can put into much more efficient uses?

Swipe being secret TP management is really laughable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

What's funny, is that Flash is a very unique skill that actually has more applications than people give it credit for. It actually even goes through immunities to cause enmity. For instance, in Tam-Tara, on the final boss, when he goes invuln and is tethered to the imps, you can actually flash and still generate enmity. With a potency, this feature would actually disappear. Or on World of Darkness, you can actually Flash Could of Darkness during her add phase and continue to generate enmity on her. With a potency, this would also disappear. Skills with potency modifiers are notorious for requiring the damage to actually hit for the enmity to actually register. This is why skills like Overpower and Unleash don't actually generate any enmity during these phases.

---

There are fringe cases where Flash has a nice effect.
Then there are the majority of situations you would rather have it behave differently.
When asking for quality of life changes, I would gladly give up the fringe for the majority, given its at the core of our aoe threat management. This isnt tempered will--flash is meant to compare against unleash, overpower and its clearly (outside fringe situations) the weakest of the lot. Which, if Paladins do the least damage (and they do--a bit on single target and laughable on aoe) then I still want their 'threat' to be at level, but at this time its not scaling the same way.

Maim effects aoe threat. Dark Side effects aoe threat.
Flash gains no benefits from FoF.
Deliverance and Dark Side both amplify the threat of increased emnity attacks.
Sword Oath does nothing--the added potency is not effected.

There are issues with Paladins. It's not 2.0 War--no one is saying that. It needs some small tweaks, some ability updates, somethings -nudged-.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

-Snipped for size management-

---

Actually, you recover 60 TP every 3 seconds while in combat. Now, Flash does no damage, Shield Swipe does. I'll take a single target damaging enmity increase for less TP recovery over no damage, MP consuming enmity increase on a single target fight any day. We aren't having TP issues with trash where AOE enmity is more helpful. We are having TP issues on bosses, where there is mostly one target. Being able to continue to damage while recovering even a slight amount of TP is better than doing absolutely no damage and recovering a full GCD, especially since Blocking comes quite often in these fights, and making use of the proc is better than just letting it fall away. Further, making it oGCD would mean that you would be consuming more TP by using it instead of recovering it. Swipe is, in fact, excellent TP management because it not only uses less TP than what you recover from using it, it also triggers a global, allowing you to recover some TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

-Snipped for size management-

---

Okay, first, yes, Deliverance effect the enmity on OP, but you still result in less enmity than if used with Defiance, and Warriors can not use both at the same time like Dark Knights can do with Grit and Dark Side. I WILL admit to the other classes having better AOE enmity, but so long as I can keep hate off of DPS and healers, I have no issues with this. I can still perform my role, even if it is at a slight disadvantage as opposed to other tanks. We still have better damage mitigation than the other two classes, especially with Defiance having its nerf to the healing from the emergency heals (note, Defiance no longer increases healing on heals that are instant cast, this has been confirmed)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

Snip

---

Everything ive seen save for posts from 2012 indicate 50 per 3 (since 60 per 3 would mean it would take a very very long time to go out of tp given the average combo is 63 tp (70/60/60), gcds are 2.5 and people have latency/in and out of combat etc). Either way, the point stands you are only generating 13 tp per use of shield swipe compared to your average combo. A flash eats of a full gcd, and gives you a full gcd worth of regen of tp. That tp is more efficiently used in a combo instead of swipe. If TP management is an issue, using swipe is less optimal than flash, and you will do more damage per TP with goring blade or the royal combo (average damage per tp).

It feels nifty to slap a button cause it lights up, but swipe is kind of a trap. If you have tp issues, use flash. If you dont have tp issues, use other abilities.

Second part is the crux of the issue. If you are in a bleeding edge progression guild, the only way you are holding threat off war ot's and good dps is staying in shield the entire fight and spamming rage --> rage--> goring. Other tanks can drop out of tank stances (my war co tank most of ravannah ex in deliverence)--that is because all of their damage applications effect their emnity increases.


We have the issue of:
1) Sword Oath doesnt have its damage effect by increased emnity
2) Flash deals no potency to be magnified
3) Our threat combo does the least damage out of any aggro combo, which coupled with naturally low ways to magnify our damage (darks do this largely by OGDS, about 2000 potency a minute oGCD vs our 1100, or via straight modifiers in the case of wars (maim/zerk/lulul all dat damage).

So i do not have a problem with you wanting to increase PLD's threat generation while MT'ing in fact I welcome it coming from a WAR's perspective, however I think you're going about it the wrong way. Here are my thoughts coming from the other side of the tank equation:

-If you increased PLD's damage to within say 50-100 DPS of WAR then why would you bring a WAR when PLD has superior mitigation and similar DPS? Same would go for DRK
-If you increased PLD's aoe threat by giving them more aoe damage(this isnt really an issue) there would be nothing unique about the other 2 tanks aoe's
-If you allowed PLD to switch stances oGCD then you would lose one of the draws of WAR and half of DRK(Darkside)\

So here are my solutions:
-Do not increase PLD's DPS. Increase the threat modifier that either Shield Oath or that of RoH applies. If they give 300% enmity up it to 350% so that they can hold off of your OT. This should give PLD some breathing room to use GB and RA more frequently while also recognizing that the strength de-buff is important. I would imagine start of the fight going: RoH -> RoH -> Goring -> RoH -> Goring/RA until RoH debuff falls off then RoH and this would hold enmity for a while then go back do a few RoH's continue.
-Do not give flash a damage component, but instead allow flash to proc CoS off CD say 2 times ever 10 seconds. so you could potentially CoS -> Flash -> CoS -> Flash -> CoS assuming it procs that way
-I dont find PLD's stances to much of an issue considering PLD is essentially THE MT. However i would do this remove the MP or decrease it. PLD seems to have quite the MP sink now that clemency is somewhat useful.
- Utility I completly agree with this. either that or make clemency require a finite amount of damage to interrupt say 5000 damage
-Blind i think it should effect but maybe have either reduced duration or reduced effectiveness to raid bosses.

TL/DR the solution is not to increase the damage so PLD can once again take WAR's spot, but to increase its threat generation passively so it can use its DPS combos more often while MTing

Again this is only from the side of someone who only played PLD through 2.55, but hasnt taken it past 50 yet

Nothing much has changed on PLD level 50 onwards. If there's anything i'd suggest, continue to give us more swords that swing fast. The heart of our DPS isn't done with burst damage like double fell cleaves but with taking advatage of sword oath's additional 50 pot. It lasts for as long as we like, with no mp drain like darkside. We don't thrive with managing stacks like war. Flash, yes i agree with the differentiation between oaths. Sheltron, i might ask for an increase in mp return seeing that it's not always up or blocking everything. As for Clemency, future expacs might address the interruptible natures of it. I just don't see it as that broken but needs getting used to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pouncing

Snip

---

Basically this. The suggestions i made (minus maybe swipe ogcd) dont effect damage so much--I'm more concerned with incrementing our threat up so we are free to use other combos and not be married to halone.

Also I would say, this extra mitigation we earn due to our low damage becomes largely invalidated in a magic damage paradigm. If busters continue to be magic damage in alexander, then we pay a cost for something we are not using (Darks still do great damage, wars as well regardless of the damage source).

I think bullet points would be

-make blind useful and work
-clemency as a gcd instead of a spell. Skill speed helps it, not interrupted, but still limited by mana and takes up the same time block (2.5 vs 3)
-increase our threat in oath (overall) and oath (via extra enmity powers)

Responses to your ideas OP:

1.I have an alternative to Rage of Halone, give the enmity bonus and strength down bonus to Royal Authority (leave RA damage as is) and let us have it replace Rage of Halone altogether at 60 in the same way you'd take Fire off your bar when you learn Fire II. (If you do low level content, you can always swap the abilities on your bar).

2. I've never had issues with aoe threat, flash is definitely not the most exciting way to AoE but my opener for AoE: Flash -> Circle while GCD is going -> Flash again usually works fine and I just throw in the occasional flash if I need to. I do wish that the best way for aoe threat wasn't flash spam to riot blade combo with the occasional circle thrown in. Unleash/Overpower are way more satisfying to use imo.

3. Clemency: I use this skill a lot in A4 while keeping up my MP with Riot Blade in the last phase (I usually end up OTing this fight) until it's my turn to eat Perpetual Ray. I agree on changing it. I'm not sure about making it instant cast, tbh I'd rather see it have the 2.5 sec GCD and halve the MP cost while leaving it's heal intact. It's highly situational and could use some love.

Veil: I really think the button itself should trigger the shield and instead of proximity it should just hit our whole party automatically.

4. Sword Oath is pretty boring compared to the other DPS stances, I think it could use a buff of some kind not necessarily a +damage%, but maybe reduce tp costs? Just a thought.

5. No real comment about this one outside of Blind seems pretty useless of the time. Maybe add a secondary effect? Maybe a debuff that reduces/negates an enemies chance to crit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

1: The casting time on clemency.
---You cannot parry or block during this. This seems out of flavor for a paladin.
---Very very prone to interruptions in anything higher than dungeons. If you take 20% of more of your health in damage, you are interrupted, so what seemed great leveling up will become harder to use in things like alex extreme.
---Slowness of cast means most healing on self or others results in an over heal because healers will always out pace you.

---

This is propably most annoying thing atm, its sad to see those big fat 8k clemency crits wasted as an overheal ;__; Also while DV is awesome utility its kinda clunky to use even with voice comms, in PuG's its in mercy of RNG. Other than those two things im rather happy with PLD in general, alot more fun than it used to be in ARR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Everything ive seen save for posts from 2012 indicate 50 per 3 (since 60 per 3 would mean it would take a very very long time to go out of tp given the average combo is 63 tp (70/60/60), gcds are 2.5 and people have latency/in and out of combat etc).

---

It's very definitely 100% 60 TP per 3 seconds. To test:

Step 1: Find a dummy or medium level mob. Nothing that'll die in three autos, but nothing that'll kill you either.
Step 2: Punch it.
Step 3: Sprint.
Step 4: Wait for a TP tick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

heavy hitting single target enemies in the A2 fight as well which are better tanked by a Paladin "

---

A2 is terrible for PLD. Sure we have the best mitigation set for that turn but killing the hordes faster mitigates more damage then our JAs can.

WARs and DRKs are bursting in the 1500 DPS range during that fight, PLD stays in the 700dps range. (SwOing the entire fight) If you ShO at all its even worse.

The add in A4 again is best handled by a PLD, but that is 10 (x2-3) seconds of the entire ~5:30 fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

A2 is terrible for PLD. Sure we have the best mitigation set for that turn but killing the hordes faster mitigates more damage then our JAs can.

WARs and DRKs are bursting in the 1500 DPS range during that fight, PLD stays in the 700dps range. (SwOing the entire fight) If you ShO at all its even worse.

The add in A4 again is best handled by a PLD, but that is 10 (x2-3) seconds of the entire ~5:30 fight.

---

This. People ignore that more dps to a degree, shortens a fight and can reduce the need to pop cds and strain healer mana. A paladin taking 15% less damage through a phase would certainly not be worth them contributing 30% less damage (this are absolutely arbitrary numbers). The times this is important is when said damage and that 15% can be the difference between life or death, which to this time, is not seen in Alexander. If things remain as is, than many of the mechanics I would look to a paladin to better mitigate are magic damage, with the seeming exception of A3.

Effectively, the situations in which a Paladin must excel are now somewhat limited to:
1) Single target fight
2) Physical fight

If both situations do not come up, then what you have 'paid' for with your lowered dps compared to other tanks simply does not come into play. And while you cannot participate in aoe contributions meaningfully, it is not as if those other tanks cannot perform valiantly at single target/physical (not as good certainly--but the difference is not as massive as Paladins pathetic threat, absent aoe damage, or single target damage/burst).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khalithar

Snip

---

Maybe having Royal Authority gain increased emnity and extend the duration of the rage debuff if the paladin has placed the rage debuff on the target, something similar to the new ninja combo (although certainly much more potent, so maybe somewhat suspect). I.E

Additional Effect: If Circle of Scorn or Rage of Halone afflict the target, increase the duration by 5 seconds and deal increased enmity.

5 Seconds would effectively let a paladin use our royal authority combo a few times without having to re-apply rage of halone, but it would taper off (full combo is longer than five seconds). Adding in CoS is simply a small dps and threat increase on a singlet target.


Sword Oath gaining emnity on emnity moves, and maybe some secondary effect might spicen it up. Critical strikes regen tp? A flat attack speed increase? Something.

I think if clemency is a 2.5 gcd, most of its issues are fixed and its in a great place. If we reduce the mp cost, it likely will become OP :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

Snip

---

I stand corrected! 60 it is. Still doesnt mean i think shield swipe is a good tp management skill. 13 tp per button press as opposed to flashing for a full 60 and using it in a real combo is much efficient use of tp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

-snip-

---

Prepare to get schooled in the art of TP balance and DPS. I'll go through each 3 hit combo rotation and show you the difference between using Flash for TP recovery and using Shield Swipe for TP preservation as well as the difference in the potency per second as well as the different amount of times you can sustain that DPS and how much total DPS you can do with each assuming a 10 minute long fight. To make things easier, remember that TP recovery is 60/3 seconds, or equivalent to 20/second. Also, remember that when you run out of TP, your rotation slows down because of the nature of TP regeneration. This comes out to having to wait 9.5 seconds for every 190 TP, 7.5 second rotation, 11.5 seconds for every 230 TP, 10 second rotation, 13.5 seconds for every 270 TP, 12.5 second rotation, and 15.16667... second for every 310, 15 second rotation. These are going to be the 4 kinds of rotations I look at, since the first has no Shield Swipes in it, the second has 1, third has 2, and fourth has 3 (or 1 shield swipe per combo skill) and show you where the perfection point is for doing the most potency possible assuming a 10 minute long fight for each rotation.

RoH Combo Rotation

No Shield Swipe: Total Potency: 610 potency. Length of one rotation: 7.5 seconds. Total TP used: 190 TP. Total TP recovered: 150. Thus total TP lost in the 7.5 seconds is 40 TP, with a Potency per second of 81.333... This means that you will run out of TP after 25 rotations, or 187.5 seconds, or 3 minutes and 7.5 seconds. After this point, your potency per second drops to 65. This comes out to a total potency of approximately 42070 over a 10 minute fight

1 Shield Swipe per rotation: Total Potency: 820. Length of one rotation: 10 seconds. Total TP used: 230 TP. Total TP recovered: 200. Thus, total TP lost in the 10 seconds is 30 TP with a Potency per second of 82. This means that you will run out of TP after 33.333... rotations, or 333.333... seconds, or 5 minutes and 33.333... seconds. After this point, your potency per second drops to 71.3. This comes out to a total potency of approximately 46343 over a 10 minute fight, about 4273 more potency over the fight over the base, or 7.12 potency per second more.

2 Shield Swipes per rotation: Total Potency: 1030. Length of one rotation: 12.5 second. Total TP used: 270 TP. Total TP recovered: 250 TP. Thus, total TP lost in the 12.5 seconds is 20 TP with a Potency per second of 82.4. This means that you will run out of TP after 50 rotations, or 625 seconds, or 10 minutes and 25 seconds. In a 10 minute fight, you'll never run out of TP then, and always have this same potency. So the total potency in the fight is 49500, or 3157 more potency over 1 Shield Swipe, and 7430 more potency than no Shield Swipes

3 Shield Swipes per rotation: Total Potency: 1240. Length of rotation: 15 seconds. Total TP used: 310 TP. Total TP recovered: 300 TP. Thus, total TP lost in the 15 seconds is 10 TP with a Potency per second of 82.6667... This means you will run out of TP after 100 rotations or 1500 seconds, or 25 minutes. In a 10 minute fight, you will never run out of TP. This results in a total potency of 49600, so an increase of 100 potency over 2 Shield Swipes.

Conclusion, assuming a RoH combo, using Shield Swipe will ALWAYS result in a potency increase closer to 84 potency per second, which is Shield Swipe's potency per second, which is higher than RoH's combo without it. Of course, this changes when you do rotations with other combos.

Royal Authority: Total Potency: 690. Total combo duration: 7.5 seconds. Total TP used: 190. Total TP recovered: 150. TP loss: 40. This results in a complete loss of TP after 3 minutes and 7.5 seconds. At which point, your potency per second drops to 72.6315, and you now have a total potency over 10 minutes of 47221, Already less than the optimal 2 Shield Swipes per second on the RoH combo. Changing to just one Shield Swipe will see an increase in your potency over the length of the fight to 50895. Changing to 2 results in an increase to 53760 total potency over the 10 minute fight. Changing to 3 results finally in a loss of potency down to 52800 over 10 minutes.

Goring Blade doesn't change it either with its total potency of 540. This is a total potency of 890 on a 7.5 second rotation. This results in a potency per second of 118.667... for the 187.5 seconds before you run out of TP. With this rotation, it's a total potency of 60895 over 10 minutes. Including one Shield Swipe results in a potency increase to 62301.449 over the 10 second fight by just changing from no Shield Swipes to 1 per rotation. Changing to 2 however does result in an increase in potency on a 10 minute fight to 62880. Changing to 3 Shield Swipes per rotation finally results in a potency loss to 60800 over a 10 minute fight.

So, as you will see if you read all of this, as I'm sure most people won't, the perfect number of Shield Swipes to use to last an entire 10 minute fight for the highest potency possible while maintaining your TP throughout the fight is 2 per 3 skill combo rotation. IF you use Flash instead once per rotation only results in a net TP recovery of 10 TP per rotation and a potency loss of 21 per second over using just one Shield Swipe or a total loss of 210 potency per rotation, and thus a total potency loss of 33.6 per second on a 12.5 second rotation or a total of 420 potency per 12.5 seconds and only a TP recovery of 60 TP per 12.5 seconds rotation. So, Shield Swipe IS the best way to maintain TP AND maintain your DPS as well.

To recovery the total TP loss from one combo rotation without any Shield Swipe in it, you would have to use Flash at the end of 2 other similar rotations. Remember, you lose 40 TP per 7.5 second rotation. You think Flash is a 60TP recovery, but it isn’t. It’s only a 50 TP recovery. You have to remember that the global cool down is actually 2.5 seconds, not 3, so natural TP recovery in 2.5 seconds is only 50 TP, not the full 60 you think it is. Adding this to a 7.5 second rotation increases the rotation to 10 seconds, which means it’s a TP consumption of 190 on a 10 second rotation, and you only recover 20 TP per second, so a net gain of only 10 TP. You will have to use Flash at the end of 4 rotations to recover the TP lost in just one 7.5 second rotation, and you will net a loss of 840 potency.

The perfect TP preservation scenario is 2 Shield Swipes per each 3 skill combo and will result in the highest possible total potency on a 10 minute fight. Now you are unlikely to get two procs per 12.5 seconds throughout a whole fight, and you can’t block magical damage either. So you are going to have TP trouble at some point in a fight, but that’s also what Goad is for. And if it does come to it, that is what Flash is for too. However, Flash IS NOT the better TP management choice if Shield Swipe is available.

School is out…

It sounds like you want pld to be the best at something(mitigation) while being just a tad worse than the other tanks at everything else. I believe pld is fine your suggestions flow around pld takin a bit from drk. Especially the flash doing dmg bit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

Maybe having Royal Authority gain increased emnity and extend the duration of the rage debuff if the paladin has placed the rage debuff on the target, something similar to the new ninja combo (although certainly much more potent, so maybe somewhat suspect). I.E

Additional Effect: If Circle of Scorn or Rage of Halone afflict the target, increase the duration by 5 seconds and deal increased enmity.

5 Seconds would effectively let a paladin use our royal authority combo a few times without having to re-apply rage of halone, but it would taper off (full combo is longer than five seconds). Adding in CoS is simply a small dps and threat increase on a singlet target.

---

I actually really like that idea. Though I'd prefer having RA refresh the duration of Rage on the target, circle of scorn extension doesn't really seem needed though as 1. The move costs nothing and 2. It's off the GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceodore

Snip

---

Hard to go through your math when you have some core numbers wrong.

Goring blade is 920 damage over its combo, not 890. Its 8 ticks at 40 (you can test it on a dummy?). It doesnt discount your argument but its amusing that with all your school references, you missed this arithmetic?

You are correct though, in a condition where you will go out of tp, that shield swipe is a more efficient use of tp, although a far simpler way to prove it than your math is simply to do basic potency/tp cost (where shield swipe is 5.25, vs the goring blades 4.84 and RA 3.63) and results in the best potency for tp cost. That is of course, not to say flash isnt better tp recovery (it purely is) but that its not as efficient a use for that tp --save in the case you want to keep Rage Debuff on (Ravanna EX).

To which--sure--this is all correct --although since tp recovery really isnt a main item of the OC I'm 100% fine with this. Paladins tanking rarely have tp concerns anyways--unless you absolute ignore clemency (which isnt damage, but is tp recovery none the less). A ninja using goad mean that you have better options for your gcds---RA does more damage per GCD than shield swipe, so if you have tp resources or arnt in danger of running out in a fight, you can still safely ignore swipe. Its only going to be useful in a situation where you hit 0 before the fight ends). Now.. as OT's DRK and Paladin have issues with tp certainly, but i think the solution there is ninjas and bards personally. I run with one of both so largely not an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmniKLD

It sounds like you want pld to be the best at something(mitigation) while being just a tad worse than the other tanks at everything else. I believe pld is fine your suggestions flow around pld takin a bit from drk. Especially the flash doing dmg bit

---

I have each of the tanks at 60 and have been doing the content (current, no savage, but rav ex and all of alex) as each of the three which is where im basing the ideas of. I do -not- think Paladins should compete with darks or wars on damage, especially aoe. What I'm saying is that they are so far behind though (not even registering) that they could use something. As an OT (not tanking) having some aoe damage (ergo the flash idea) seemed like a hook. A way to maintain circle of scorn better when multi tanking is really more the crux of the aoe item.


To which--the main contention points of the post are

single target threat (not so much damage, thats largely secondary for me. This comes up if you play with dps that are parsing for 1K plus single target in rav and a4 (vs dummies:P)
aoe threat (not so much damage, thats largely secondary for me. Again, an issue when you are playing against people pushing themselves to the max. No issue in DF groups XD)
and utility powers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

-Snip-

---

You still don't get it. Flash IS NOT a better TP management skill as it literally has 0 potency for a total of 10 TP recovery if you use it once per 3 skill combo rotation. You only get 60 TP returned if you use it twice per rotation, and this results in such a drastic potency per second loss that it's absolutely stupid. Further, MY POTENCY on Goring Blade is correct. Goring Blade's Potency is indeed 540, However it's Riot Blade where my Potency is off. Yes, it comes out to 920, however, my point still remains that Shield Swipe is the better choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faytte

-Snip-

---

The only change I could see making to our single target damage is removing Pacification and the TP cost of Shield Swipe and increasing the damage closer to Rage of Halone. Do NOT take it off the global cooldown though. This would increase our single target damage against physical damagers, and increase its already main use of a TP recovery skill.
The only change I could see making to our AOE damage is lowering the CD of Circle of Scorn to match the duration. This would also increase our AOE enmity and our single target enmity slightly, as this skill has a use on either situations as it is oGCD, so NOT using it whenever possible is just folly.
As far as utility goes, we are well off already, but making Divine Veil trigger on your own Clemency, whether it was cast on you or another target, is all I would consider changing.

Beyond these changes, I see nothing else that needs altering.

I would love if flash did 100 potency. However then there would be no reason to be DRK lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I would love if flash did 100 potency. However then there would be no reason to be DRK lol

---

Yeah, on top of the fact that DRK would then just cross class Flash and never use their Unleash because they would do the exact same thing, but Flash has a cheaper MP cost. Also, even with a potency of 100, Shield Swipe would still be a better TP recovery skill against single targets.