After getting dark knight 60 and playing it for a while

I feel like it's kit is sort of incomplete, and it's abilities are underwhelming in a few ways... Possible changes that I think would help the job a bit:

Cross classes: I feel like Lancer sub would be perfect on Dark knight... Keen flurry, and Invigorate would help Dark knight immensely. I would say lose Gladiator, but we need provoke(Convalescence is nice too ). Marauder also has bloodbath, foresight, and Mercy stroke(very nice when combined with sole survivor). A way to make this all right would be to add the provoke effect to something like plunge(with Dark Arts maybe?). Or just lose the MRD sub.

Blood Weapon: Gives you 10% speed bonus, which in turn causes TP to run dry. It's a big problem as an OT. This could be fixed by changing it so that TP costs are reduced while it's in effect. Either that or change the speed bonus to a damage bonus, and slightly increase the MP return per hit.

Living Dead: A bad skill, I almost forget it exists sometimes. It stresses the healers far more than Hallowed ground or Holmgang, and is almost never a good idea to formulate a strategy using it. As of now, if you're in a PUG, it is pretty much a death sentence once walking dead is activated. It can work in very organized groups, but it draws a lot of resources, and with what other tanks bring to the table, why bother? There are a lot of ways to fix this skill.

Soul Eater: Good skill overall, but I feel like the HP return should be slightly increased, seeing as it's one of our main mitigation tools.

Dark Dance: This skill is insanely good for large trash pulls when used with Dark Arts, but is a bit unimpressive when used against boss mobs. I'm honestly not sure what to fix on this(or if it needs fixed at all), but a lot of people say they would like it to increase Parry more with Dark Arts, instead of adding evade chance.

Shadow Wall: Feels a bit underwhelming compared to the same tier of skill the other tanks have... I feel like it should have a Dark Arts variation. Or just increase the duration/decrease the cooldown.

Dark Passenger: Amazing skill for large trash pulls. Needs to lose the MP cost though. DRK is already very MP hungry, and this skill doesn't help. Or keep the MP cost and add an enmity boost to it.

Carve and Spit: I don't know. It feels pretty weak when used without Dark arts for the MP restore. Pretty good when used with Dark Arts though. Maybe add a minor TP restore on the non-Dark arts version.

Blood Price: Pretty meh when used against a single target. I feel like it needs a way to be more useful while tanking a single enemy(Maybe w/ Dark Arts).

Delirium: It's okay... But I feel like it's a little underwhelming for a combo finisher. Maybe add a damage buff of 10% or so similar to maim? Or have it restore the same amount MP as Siphon strike so it could be an MP return combo(and not be useless when a monk is around).

Dark Arts: MP cost is steep, but that's okay, it makes you be more aware when playing Dark knight. As you can see above, I think it should be more active in Dark knight's kit. It's the main gimmick of the job, and I feel like it isn't used enough.

I agree that Lancers give a very good cross class actions for DRK in the form of:
- Feint
- Keen Flury
- Life Surge
- Invigorate

I wouldn't mind it replacing MRD rather than GLA(Provoke, Convalescence and Awareness are my choice of cross class for them).

I can't even imagine the horror of having DRKs have access to the Lancer skillset, namely because of Blood for Blood. I mean, it would be okay when you OT and even when MTing during the most laid-back of fluff moments, but pugging with DRK-tanks would be pretty nightmare-inducing after that.

That being said, apart from that sweat-inducing horror image, mild tweaks are indeed needed, TP issues one of them, Dark Dance getting a tweak, and then one more button to be pushed for more reliable physical tank buster mitigation. (Shadowskin and Shadow Wall have shite uptimes overall right now).

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

I can't even imagine the horror of having DRKs have access to the Lancer skillset, namely because of Blood for Blood. I mean, it would be okay when you OT and even when MTing during the most laid-back of fluff moments, but pugging with DRK-tanks would be pretty nightmare-inducing after that.

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What is the matter ? Pugging is already a nightmare. You don't see a tank without defiance/SO/grit on a boss that really matters. It would be the same with blood for blood. You wouldn't see tanks using it on bosses that matter.
As for the rest, it won't change anything. Bad players will be worse, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Teno

You don't see a tank without defiance/SO/grit on a boss that really matters. It would be the same with blood for blood. You wouldn't see tanks using it on bosses that matter.

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Well, I gotta give it to you for thinking positive, at the very least.

For the most part I agree with the OP. Pretty much touched on a number of abilities that are just a bit weak or weird feeling.

Though the Delirium change doesn't need to be anything more than add blunt resistance so we can put it up in place of a MNK so they can just DPS more, similar to how a WAR-NIN combo works now. Or as people have said before have it add some sort of other separate debuff effect to it like a %magic resistance down or something. It just needs something more to bring real utility.

Don't forget for Living Dead, it gets worse the stronger you get. More HP/VIT gear means healers will have to heal you more if it does proc.

I do agree the Dark Arts cost is huge, which wouldn't be an issue except DRK is MP starved and many of the abilities it buffs aren't that great when buffed. I honestly use it almost exclusively for a buffed Soul Eater now for the extra damage (not much healing since 80% of the time it seems when it's up in combo the healers already have me topped off). Some of the other abilities are just weak,

-Dark Dance buffed is not only worthless, but the evasion goes against DRK needing to get hit for some key abilities.
-Dark Passenger/Abyssal Drain are merely for trash pulls, worthless on most boss fights.
-Carve and Spit is up for debate, I personally don't think using all that MP for essentially 50 potency is worth it, and would rather use it to get MP back and use more Soul Eater. But I've not done the math so it could be better to DA it, but I imagine it's probably only slightly better.

Dark Mind is about the only other worthwhile ability to buff, but requires you're taking magic damage. Which is either difficult to know if what's hitting you is magical, or a lot of enemies are physical. So it's good, but situational.

1. Blood Weapon's speed boost affects your spells. Even if you do run out of TP, Unmend has its recast time lowered while under Blood Weapon, and even without Blood weapon doing 150 potency is better then doing simply auto attacks which is the reality for any other melee when they run out of TP as they do not have a second attack resource. TP invigorating moves post-pone running out of TP but do not invalidate TP renewal, which is part of BRD/MCH/NIN's value.


2. What is with this bad "Cross class Lancer" crap that keeps coming. 1) The current cross-classes of PLD/WAR are fine, 2) If there was an alternative they would've put it as ROG or PUG who would bring their own benefits without conflicting with their design goals from Goad's support & Perfect Dodge's defense to Pug's combination of FLeet foot + DA dark dance, Second Wind, Haymaker in relation to the Darks own Evasion, Internal release, & Mantra. Unless they create a tank job for LNC don't expect any tanks to have their skillset (Templar plz).

3. Dark Passengers MP cost is fine and all but arbitrary for large pulls due to Blood Price and Sole Survivor.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

-Dark Passenger/Abyssal Drain are merely for trash pulls, worthless on most boss fights.

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Isn't Dark Passenger a bigger DPS increase than a DA'd Souleater, for less resources used? Comboed SE without DA is 260 potency, whilst DA'd it is 400 potency, meaning a 140 potency increase. A non-DA'd DP is 150 potency, doesn't waste a GCD and also costs exactly half of one DA use. So unless you really need the self-heal from the SE (if MTing in Grit), shouldn't you always go for DP instead due to the +10 potency, it being oGCD and because its cost is literally half of a DA?

I mainly leveled DRK to 60 so I would understand them better from a healing standpoint as I am a healer main first and foremost (though I like tanking), but I just figured I'd sort of ask that right now, as I've seen people post similar thoughts in passing before too.

For single target, if MP management is a factor, unbuffed Passenger (+150 oGCD) with unbuffed Souleater (150 + 260 > 400) or Delirium (150 + 280 > 400) to get a 'better' Potency than strictly DA'd Souleater - but at half the MP cost.

Pretty much every 30 seconds you're getting a buffed SE combo for half it's cost (tho less self healing). The Passenger DA buff is only really worth it for trash mobs multiple targets. In single target, the 884 cost of using Passenger added to the 1769 MP cost of Dark Arts means that 250 + 260/280 is coming at 1.5x the MP cost of buffed SE (400), and unless there's MP needed to be wasted - it's better to put the .5x MP into a second buffed SE. With the Dark Arts 5 second recast, it can be difficult to load a DA buffed Passenger and DA'd SE in the same combo

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Originally Posted by Kelg

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Your WS/CD analysis are more or less the same as a lot of others. I agree 100% with this:

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Originally Posted by Kelg

Dark Arts: MP cost is steep, but that's okay, it makes you be more aware when playing Dark knight. As you can see above, I think it should be more active in Dark knight's kit. It's the main gimmick of the job, and I feel like it isn't used enough.

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^AST is in the same situation.

Dark Arts & Card Drawing are the job-identifying actions for each class. BUT, instead of these abilities actually adding to and enhancing a solid core, CARDs and DARKNESS serve to allow a PLD-core (inferior) DRK to play pretend at (inferior) WAR, and a WHM-core (inferior) AST to play pretend at (inferior) SCH.

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Said that in a general sense Tranquil

I wasn't suggesting DA'ing the DP though, unless you just said that in general. (Because it sort of sounded like you were telling me why not to DA a DP on single-target xd). Anyway, I am not really sure why I put my message in a question-format because the math leaves no questions to be answered in that regard for a single-target non-DA'd DP vs. using a DA on SE. I only pretty much DA my DP on big trash pulls when Blood Price is about to run out or isn't up anymore, because mobs missing me is kind of counter-intuitive. Thanks for the response though.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

What is with this bad "Cross class Lancer" crap that keeps coming.

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The reason people bring it up is because parry works well with both reprisal, and low blow(resets). More parry support would make sense in dark knight's ability list. It also helps with tp, which is a problem if you want to do good dps as an OT.

Same Ideologies were said for Warrior in 2.0.
Blood for Blood isn't getting put on a Drk so I don't see why anyone wastes their breath when if they had that intention the Dark Knight would already have its traditional health sacrificial gameplay.

@ Kelg

Soul Eater should siphon more life, I agree.

Blood Weapon useable in Grit would be a welcome change, however it wouldn't resolve our TP issues. I struggle with TP issues more then MP.

Carve and Split needs a revamping. The mana return is again negligible. For it being the level 60 ability, its lackluster.

Blood Price - Seeing as how its mainly used for packs of mobs and most if not all the dungeons trash pulls are packs of mobs, its currently pretty good in my opinion. It's not meant to be used for single target. That's why we have the siphon for single target mana regen. Don't complete the full chain, just use the first ability then siphon a couple times in a row once you have agro and bam, all your mana is pretty much returned.

Cross class - We could definitely use more variety. Its rather bland currently.

I think this is the first time I agree with most changes. Only thing I don't like are the sub lancer because what we'll gain can be instead revisioned in the actual skillset and Delirium, it's not bad the way it is, maybe the debuff could last longer but overall it's OK, it's not even weak.

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Originally Posted by Greven

I think this is the first time I agree with most changes. Only thing I don't like are the sub lancer because what we'll gain can be instead revisioned in the actual skillset and Delirium, it's not bad the way it is, maybe the debuff could last longer but overall it's OK, it's not even weak.

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I don't think Delirium is weak as in damage, it's actually fairly strong. I think the effect is a little lacking, mainly because having a monk makes it just an attack.

I agree with most of the points here. Coming from a level 50 Paladin (pre-HW), DRK seems unfocused and a bit weak overall.

My biggest complaints would be that multiple abilities are underwhelming (Dark Dance, Delirium, Shadow Wall, Living Dead), and that there is no specific focus for the job. While it seems like it was designed to deal with magic mitigation and managing MP, it doesn't do great in either (there aren't any situations in which a DRK would be chosen over a PLD or WAR).

My biggest problem so far (beside TP) is Dark Arts. For the cost, I can't really justify the effects gained (especially with the MP drain bug). I feel like this should be the main mechanic of DRK, yet it feels lackluster overall.

At any rate, I'm only 55 on DRK and by no means a pro. So maybe I just need some more practice.

I have been having little to no issues with DRK. Aggro is never an issue, and MP is rarely a problem. I just don't think many people have figured out how to optimize damage while not blowing all your MP. Also Carve and Spit is really misunderstood imo, it's a free 884 MP that's off the GCD and honestly functions better in that aspect than just a DPS gain.

DRK is about riding that fine line between damage and aggro. A lot of tanks are always trying to push bigger numbers, and I'm cool with that, that's just not me. I like seeing the big numbers like everyone else, but not if it means sacrificing more MP than I need to just for a better parse. Focusing on when to use your cooldowns and using them correctly makes DRK pretty sturdy. After running PLD throughout 2.0 DRK is a nice change of pace with a bit more attention needed. I play a tank job to tank, my DPS is good because I have a good rotation but my main goal is aggro.

DRK will never do as much damage as WAR, or be a turtle like PLD, but then again you're not a PLD/WAR so play like a DRK.

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Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

SNIP.

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I feel like you might have missed the points entirely. The people that are natural tanks surely have no problem keeping agro or managing MP. It's Dark Knight's survivability kit that's an issue, lack of Blood Weapon as MT(seeing this is the main source of MP Management next to Syphon Blade), TP Dry in 3 minutes, and few other issues.

When you try pushing for the limits, you see what is really wrong with the job and what is preventing you from touching the ceiling. If you just play average, then you won't see the issues. To say Dark Knight has no flaws is equivalent to say Astrologian and Bards(before changes) are perfectly fine once you figure things out. There's things preventing you from being on even footing or complementing your party.

yeah add MORE skills that require DORK arts. stupid idea if current dork arts manacost remains. would basicly limit us to about 2 actions and then be nearly fully drained. imo dark arts should only cost little mana and be used more often too create micro management to deepen the class complexity instead of beeing a "i wanna lose EVEN MORE MANA button".

Have been putzing around with DRK and have been looking at their abilities and rotations to get a feel of what I was getting into. I'll lend this thread my support since I do see some issues looming in the horizon.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

Living Dead: A bad skill, I almost forget it exists sometimes. It stresses the healers far more than Hallowed ground or Holmgang, and is almost never a good idea to formulate a strategy using it. As of now, if you're in a PUG, it is pretty much a death sentence once walking dead is activated. It can work in very organized groups, but it draws a lot of resources, and with what other tanks bring to the table, why bother? There are a lot of ways to fix this skill.

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Here's a suggestion for this skill:

- Living Dead: Everyone has their own personal fix for this ability. What I'd do is change it so that popping Living Dead puts the Living Dead status on you. While under the effects of Living Dead, you get a second HP bar set to your max HP that will decrease as you take damage (your "real" HP bar is unaffected by damage taken). The second HP bar is not affected by heals and instead heals will go to your "real" HP bar. The caveat is that your "real" HP has to be higher than 80% by the time Living Dead wears off (i.e after the 10 second duration or your second HP bar hitting 0). If it is, then you go back to normal. If not, you die. This removes the bullshit aspect of Living Dead and gives healers breathing room during "oh shit" situations.

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Delirium: It's okay... But I feel like it's a little underwhelming for a combo finisher. Maybe add a damage buff of 10% or so similar to maim? Or have it restore the same amount MP as Siphon strike so it could be an MP return combo(and not be useless when a monk is around).

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I like this idea.

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Dark Arts: MP cost is steep, but that's okay, it makes you be more aware when playing Dark knight. As you can see above, I think it should be more active in Dark knight's kit. It's the main gimmick of the job, and I feel like it isn't used enough.

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Dark Arts would have to be redesigned as a resource to be used more often or being a greater aspect of DRK gameplay. It wouldn't be a bad choice, since it already smells like a resource and serves a purpose eerily similar to that of a resource.

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Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

Also Carve and Spit is really misunderstood imo, it's a free 884 MP that's off the GCD and honestly functions better in that aspect than just a DPS gain.

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Carve and Spit is wasted as an MP regen ability. You'd have a better argument if it restored more than a syphon strike rotation. As it is now its best to use as a dps gain since cycling through 2x delirium combo should keep mp stable if your pushing DA + soul eater combo.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

yeah add MORE skills that require DORK arts. stupid idea if current dork arts manacost remains. would basicly limit us to about 2 actions and then be nearly fully drained. imo dark arts should only cost little mana and be used more often too create micro management to deepen the class complexity instead of beeing a "i wanna lose EVEN MORE MANA button".

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You should have to make choices when using Dark Arts... It's not like you should be able to use it with every variation, every time you use the skill. Might as well not even have Dark Arts at all if that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Cidolfas86

Carve and Spit is wasted as an MP regen ability. You'd have a better argument if it restored more than a syphon strike rotation. As it is now its best to use as a dps gain since cycling through 2x delirium combo should keep mp stable if your pushing DA + soul eater combo.

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Why should it give back more MP? Right now it's a great tool to save you from emergency mode should you get a little overzealous with DA. Are DPS that bad that you need to augment CaS instead of using it to keep yourself rolling in mp? During big pulls, using DA+AD when optimal wrecks your MP, but with Blood Price and CaS I'm losing very little MP all together and have more for things like DP and DA/PS.

Also, I think it's crazy that the same people saying Blood Weapon ruins your TP are also saying that we need to be able to use it in Grit. Why? So you can burn out as MT too? It's about MANAGING your resources, not plowing through them.

And on the point of our survivability kit being lackluster, our big CD may have less mitigation than PLD, but we also have a self heal every 6 secs or so. Some of our mitigation is passive and some is active, and I feel like if everyone could look at the class without the WAR/PLD blinders on and looked at different ways to use things besides "more DPS" they would see that DRK isn't in such a horrible place.

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Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

And on the point of our survivability kit being lackluster, our big CD may have less mitigation than PLD, but we also have a self heal every 6 secs or so. Some of our mitigation is passive and some is active, and I feel like if everyone could look at the class without the WAR/PLD blinders on and looked at different ways to use things besides "more DPS" they would see that DRK isn't in such a horrible place.

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I absolutely agree Drk isn't in a horrible place however...


Soul eater legitimately does not heal enough. And I don't mean that in the cliche "Oh static healing is bad" crap.
Look at the Healing potency per second a Warrior can put out, or even a Paladin as a result of Clemency. Dark Knight actually does not have a healing advantage unfortunately and to even try in compete in that department you're throwing out DA Soul Eaters like nobodies business.

At best Drk deals decent damage while self healing but as far as actual healing goes, Drk may very well have the worst self-healing of the three tanks. While comparing the 3 tanks isn't what you want if we're arguing the self-heal niche it isn't really there. I keep going back to magical damage mitigation...because it's actually there :p. For a Drk to bring their self-healing to its full capability they need a Warrior off-tanking for them dropping Storms Path & Eye. Which I suppose isn't a bad thing "team synergy" and all that, but isolated on their own, it's way easier to recover Health as a PLD/WAR so long as the PLD doesn't get interrupted which can happen but in general puts Drk behind them both.

Cross classes: Some of your core abilities would likely get nerfed if you went to having lancer as an cross class. No offense but plenty of jobs do not like one or more of their cross class (paladins for instance gain almost nothing from white mage other than some convinience, more so now since clemency tends to be more clutch to cast in combat than stone shield).

Blood Weapon: Call for Goad or bard songs? Paladins do this all the time. If a paladin has to use their insane tp cost stun in fights (a3 adds, dungeons for mitigation purposes, etc) they plummet---classes are not all meant to be perfectly self sustaining.

Living Dead: Its buggy--not bad. It has certain advantages over the other two 'do not die' spells. For one, it does not proc until you WOULD die--meaning its effective EHP gain is higher than Holmgang. The living dead state lasts longer than holmgang when procced--so yes the downside has to be there with 2 great upsides.

Soul Eater: Soul eater heals -without- dark arts for almost as much as inner beast, and is a combo attack you can spam. With DA up, it heals for more. That is the strongest self heal through a basic attack in the game (in either version).

Dark Dance: 20 second up time, 1 minute cd. Its hard to buff something like this without increasing its cd, or lowering its up time. Bulwark for instance is 60% to block (vs 30% parry/20% dodge) and has 5 less seconds of uptime about 3 times the cd. Frankly, Dark Dance is fantastic due to how much coverage it gives you--many bosses auto or have physical swings (Bis EX, Rav EX) and even physical busters (rav ex). This is a great cooldown.

Shadow Wall: It's weaker cause you also have dark mind, a one minute cd for 30% mitigation against what seems currently to be ALOT of the raid damage. So yes--your BIG cd is weaker than say, Paladins, who cannot spam any of their defensives like you can. You cannot cherry pick cd's to compare and show that they are weaker--DRK's are defined by -short- cooldowns or -constant- access- to their perks, assuming they can manage their mp.

Dark Passenger: Not all skills are good in all situations. Paladin flash is useless in raids save for its threat--no damage, everything is immune to blind. Ditto the pacification on shield swipe which is largely useless everywhere. These skills dont need to change though--Blind and Pacification do. They need to be nerfed down a little bit and then be allowed to apply to ~All~ monsters. Blind should only affect auto attacks, namely (not powers, tank busters, etc) while pacification needs to be taken off from shield swipe. Similar situations could exist for Drk, but the core ability is fine, it just doesnt scale into raids which is another issue. If it applied a proper blind, it would be fine in more situations and warrant its mana cost.

Carve and Split: 450 damage off gcd. This is weak? Or gain back burst mana when you need it? You think this is weak? I will trade you spirits within for this in a heart beat (spirits hitting up to 300 potency, but generally less given how fast potency tappers off with even a bit of damage).

Blood Price: Its meant to help you with aoe pulls and some self sustain. Your only option for AOE threat are mana spenders after all. Single target, you can easily self manage your own mana---you are not spending as much mana to maintain threat.

Delirium: I laughed at this suggestion. You want a damage debuff that ALSO increases your own damage? Did you ignore the fact that unlike other tanks, you can keep a constant 15% damage buff up while you are tanking? Or that a ton of bosses are using magical damage?

Dark Arts: You are not managing mana properly if the cost of dark arts is an issue. That or you are misunderstanding it--its not meant to be spammed--. You can use it very often--sure, but you also have to regen mana (which is easy enough, frankly).

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Originally Posted by Hundred

I absolutely agree Drk isn't in a horrible place however...


Soul eater legitimately does not heal enough. And I don't mean that in the cliche "Oh static healing is bad" crap.
Look at the Healing potency per second a Warrior can put out, or even a Paladin as a result of Clemency. Dark Knight actually does not have a healing advantage unfortunately and to even try in compete in that department you're throwing out DA Soul Eaters like nobodies business.

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Warrior attack based self heal is 300 potency and consumes 5 stacks of wrath. DRK is 260/400. If you are looking at their other powers, these are defensives that replace damage reducers that DRK and Paladins have. You reduce 30% magic damage every minute, while a warrior heals back up that damage instead through bursty self heal cds. That is not the same as constant offensive self healing, where DRK's are clearly ahead of War.


As to Paladin, Clemency is a 3 second cast, and you cant really compare it to the other classes. As an MT you cannot hit a button and save yourself--it takes a lot of foresight and skill, and with harder content you are very prone to being interrupted during the cast (not to mention, you cannot parry or block while spell casting, which is more important given the interrupt mechanic).

DRK's have a great constant self heal, and have access to very short cd defensives. Other tanks work differently (paladin has many defensives, but all on signifncant cds. Wars have limited reduction compared to the other two, but more burst healing).

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Soul Eater: Soul eater heals -without- dark arts for almost as much as inner beast, and is a combo attack you can spam. With DA up, it heals for more. That is the strongest self heal through a basic attack in the game (in either version).

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SoulEater w/o Dark Arts is not as good as IB.

SE w/o DA: 260 * 1.15 (DS) * .8 (Grit) = 239
IB :300 * 1.2 (maim) = 360
SE w/ DA : 400 * 1.15 * .8 = 368

Overall I don't think DRK is bad, but is more difficult to play optimally than the other tanks. Maybe increasing SE's heal % can be good. With DA it heals for almost the same amount as IB does.

From what i know, darkside is 15% more damage, not 50%

Nvm. T'was already edited

To souleater's defense, you can do that every 3rd GCD vs IB's 8, at the very least.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

SoulEater w/o Dark Arts is not as good as IB.

SE w/o DA: 260 * 1.15 (DS) * .8 (Grit) = 239
IB :300 * 1.2 (maim) = 360
SE w/ DA : 400 * 1.15 * .8 = 368

Overall I don't think DRK is bad, but is more difficult to play optimally than the other tanks. Maybe increasing SE's heal % can be good. With DA it heals for almost the same amount as IB does.

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Yes, in raw potency DA SE barely beats IB. but what Faytte is saying is that while a WAR needs to stack 5 wrath stacks (roughly 8 GCDs, less if CDs used) to pop IB (infuriate for a second), all DRK needs to do is SE every 3rd GCD. Putting SE ahead in raw HPS.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

SoulEater w/o Dark Arts is not as good as IB.

SE w/o DA: 260 * 1.15 (DS) * .8 (Grit) = 239
IB :300 * 1.2 (maim) = 360
SE w/ DA : 400 * 1.15 * .8 = 368

Overall I don't think DRK is bad, but is more difficult to play optimally than the other tanks. Maybe increasing SE's heal % can be good. With DA it heals for almost the same amount as IB does.

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My comment was based on its availability, not its potency.

You can IB every 8 GCDS (included). You can Soul eater every 3.

In the time you IB, you can do 2.66 Soul eaters. Without DA that is about 635.75 potency of self healing. Even if you mix in other combos (threat, delirum) you are generally well ahead of the sustained self healing of a warrior (who, also strictly speaking, are not using IB for the heal, but generally for the 20% mitigation, and will commonly pop it while already topped off in anticipation of damage, so much of that self heal is lost).

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Originally Posted by Faytte

DRK's have a great constant self heal, and have access to very short cd defensives. Other tanks work differently (paladin has many defensives, but all on signifncant cds. Wars have limited reduction compared to the other two, but more burst healing).

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Inaccurate. Now I have to actually put out math for someone.


Lets assume attack speeds of 2.43 for instance. 7.29s for a Soul eater. 21.87 (max) for an IB.
0.8*1.15*260 = 239 which ends up as 32.7 Healing potency per second.
0.8*1.15*400 = 368 which ends up as 50.4 Healing potency per second (cannot be permanently sustained)
300 * 1.2 = 360 which ends up as 16.4 Healing per second.

Now your initial thoughts may be 16.4 < 32.7 <50.4. However this only perceives things in a vacuum.
Lets take a couple of considerations
1) Storms Path buffs the damage of Inner Beast if its up
2) Berserk further increases the damage output of IB.
3) Storms eye is an additional heal.
Now if we're using Storms eye as our other healing option to build up to IB for instance. Storms eye is
(0.75* 250 *1.2)/2 = 112 which can end up as 15.3 healing potency per second. With just Storms path and Inner Beast a Warrior operates around 31 healing potency per second if he chooses, now this is off by a bit as using IB pushes the potency per second of Storms path down by a bit. One would think this it but Infuriate by nature of allowing more Inner Beasts increases the Warriors healing capabilities further. The cross class skill Second wind is 3.3 healing potency per second. Equilibrium is 20 on top. Given we're also dismissing Storms eye 10% damage reduction and Inner Beasts 20% on top which only serve to make these heals more effective given followups from the opposition are decreased.
As well as HP regen on the server tick scaling with maximum health which a Warrior naturally has a slight advantage over Drk in base.

The thought process might be "Well second Wind and Equilibrium are to make up for cooldowns" it doesn't matter one lick. The point of the self-healing is retroactive, after you are damaged you recover back a quantity, this is even more relevant as you outscale content where your healing output may outpace the damage output of an enemy. Dark falters here, Warrior and PLD do not. Now one may think of Sole Survivor.
Mercy stroke if successfully used on cooldown its 0.5% of your heal recovered every second as a warrior. As a Drk its 0.22%. Sole Survivor is 0.16%. When successfully executed a Warrior's Mercy stroke alone is more overall sustain then a Drk using Sole Survivor + Mercy stroke.

It's not a winning argument. Drk's strength isn't having a healing advantage over the other tanks. At best one could say Drk gives up less damage *while* healing (though this may not apply against WAR), but their actual ability to heal is lower and this is rather visible on say an Ifrit solo. For Drk to get the most out of their self-healing they require a warrior OT to be putting up Storms path and Storms eye for them, the WAR just brings himself.

Now if we want to get out of absolutes and go into practicalities neither DRK nor War spam self-heal combos all day given their other obligations (Delirium, Storms eye, Enmity) but three of WAR's heals are off the GCD and can be weaved during this entire process whenever needed.

If a warrior actually wants to, they can manage 50+ healing potency per second and sustain it if it was just a test of who heals more. Drk caps out at 50.4 healing potency per second with the exception of Sole survivor + Mercy stroke which again a warrior mathematically does better with just Mercy stroke alone. Due to MP requirements of DA a Drk can't actually sustain 50.4 healing potency per second.

The deal is going back to magical mitigation because thats what Drk current excels at. There's not much value in discussing self-healing between tanks, it's not where Drk excels and if the intention is to make them excel in that respect the absorption would have to be higher due to Grits interference.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

The deal is going back to magical mitigation because thats what Drk current excels at. There's not much value in discussing self-healing between tanks, it's not where Drk excels and if the intention is to make them excel in that respect the absorption would have to be higher due to Grits interference.

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Except with the way and frequency WAR can use and stack CDs (Such as IB + Vengeance and IB + ToB/Conv.), WAR can be arguably equal to DRK in magic mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Blood Weapon: Call for Goad or bard songs? Paladins do this all the time. If a paladin has to use their insane tp cost stun in fights (a3 adds, dungeons for mitigation purposes, etc) they plummet---classes are not all meant to be perfectly self sustaining.

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From an OT perspective, blood weapon has brought about many complaints from dark knight players, mainly because our DPS drops off like a rock once we run dry of TP, and it happens very quickly. It makes us pretty much a useless OT, seeing as how little utility we bring. Delirium is not good enough of a reason to bring a dark knight over something like a warrior when you can just bring a mnk instead.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Living Dead: Its buggy--not bad. It has certain advantages over the other two 'do not die' spells. For one, it does not proc until you WOULD die--meaning its effective EHP gain is higher than Holmgang. The living dead state lasts longer than holmgang when procced--so yes the downside has to be there with 2 great upsides.

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I don't care how you try to candy coat it, this skill is terrible. You seem to be ignoring the part where the healer has to restore your HP equal to 100% of your max HP, meaning it gets more difficult as your gear gets better. It is a huge resource drain, even when your healers see it coming. In a PUG you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbye if you have anything other than a whm(and even stiill you die sometimes).

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Soul Eater: Soul eater heals -without- dark arts for almost as much as inner beast, and is a combo attack you can spam. With DA up, it heals for more. That is the strongest self heal through a basic attack in the game (in either version).

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Inner beast doesn't require that you go through a whole combo to use. Warrior also has equilibrium(which is an amazing burst heal) and second wind to heal, we have sole survivor instead, which is actually more in line with mercy stroke. Soul eater is basically our version of paladin's shield, or warriors increased hp/healing. It should be made more meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Dark Dance: 20 second up time, 1 minute cd. Its hard to buff something like this without increasing its cd, or lowering its up time. Bulwark for instance is 60% to block (vs 30% parry/20% dodge) and has 5 less seconds of uptime about 3 times the cd. Frankly, Dark Dance is fantastic due to how much coverage it gives you--many bosses auto or have physical swings (Bis EX, Rav EX) and even physical busters (rav ex). This is a great cooldown.

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If you read my post, I said that it is good. Though the RNG evasion is not anything amazing for single targets, luck abilities never are.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Shadow Wall: It's weaker cause you also have dark mind, a one minute cd for 30% mitigation against what seems currently to be ALOT of the raid damage. So yes--your BIG cd is weaker than say, Paladins, who cannot spam any of their defensives like you can. You cannot cherry pick cd's to compare and show that they are weaker--DRK's are defined by -short- cooldowns or -constant- access- to their perks, assuming they can manage their mp.

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Paladins pretty much have a permanent dark dance up with their shield. They also have more CDs than us. Their version of Dark mind is sheltron(it's very spammable), which blocks physical attacks 100% of the time, and with how long Dark mind lasts, its pretty much the same thing but for physical. Very few mobs hit for magic damage with their normal attacks, so Dark mind is pretty much a tank buster CD.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Dark Passenger: Not all skills are good in all situations. Paladin flash is useless in raids save for its threat--no damage, everything is immune to blind. Ditto the pacification on shield swipe which is largely useless everywhere. These skills dont need to change though--Blind and Pacification do. They need to be nerfed down a little bit and then be allowed to apply to ~All~ monsters. Blind should only affect auto attacks, namely (not powers, tank busters, etc) while pacification needs to be taken off from shield swipe. Similar situations could exist for Drk, but the core ability is fine, it just doesnt scale into raids which is another issue. If it applied a proper blind, it would be fine in more situations and warrant its mana cost.

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Paladin's flash is hardly used for it's blind effect. They only have circle of scorn outside of flash to hold enemies, so it has to be used more than once. You aren't even comparing similar skills here. Dark Passenger is closer to Spirits within.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Carve and Split: 450 damage off gcd. This is weak? Or gain back burst mana when you need it? You think this is weak? I will trade you spirits within for this in a heart beat (spirits hitting up to 300 potency, but generally less given how fast potency tappers off with even a bit of damage).

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I think you need to read more closely. I did not say I think CaS is weak when used with DA. I said it is barely usable without DA, and it is. You would really only use it without DA if you aren't paying attention and expend more MP than you should have. Spirits imo is a better ability, it has a silence, and does not cost a huge chunk of your MP bar to be useful.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Blood Price: Its meant to help you with aoe pulls and some self sustain. Your only option for AOE threat are mana spenders after all. Single target, you can easily self manage your own mana---you are not spending as much mana to maintain threat.

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My problem with it is that it seems like too many of DRK's abilities are designed for trash pulls only.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Delirium: I laughed at this suggestion. You want a damage debuff that ALSO increases your own damage? Did you ignore the fact that unlike other tanks, you can keep a constant 15% damage buff up while you are tanking? Or that a ton of bosses are using magical damage?

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You realize warrior has both a permanent 20% buff, and a 10% slashing resistance debuff right(they can do all of this while tanking)? Both can be kept up while tanking. Dark Knight has Darkside, which is a 15% buff that constantly drains your MP.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Dark Arts: You are not managing mana properly if the cost of dark arts is an issue. That or you are misunderstanding it--its not meant to be spammed--. You can use it very often--sure, but you also have to regen mana (which is easy enough, frankly).

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I'm not even sure you read my post past the ability names now...

And no, I do not think Dark knight is terrible. It's just outshined by other tanks and doesn't bring anything unique to the table.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Except with the way and frequency WAR can use and stack CDs (Such as IB + Vengeance and IB + ToB/Conv.), WAR can be arguably equal to DRK in magic mitigation.

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Except that WARs nowadays are reserving stacks and infuriate exclussively for double Fell Cleaves.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

Paladin's flash is hardly used for it's blind effect. They only have circle of scorn outside of flash to hold enemies, so it has to be used more than once. You aren't even comparing similar skills here. Dark Passenger is closer to Spirits within.

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Just wanted to hop in here real quick. I personally used flash a lot on Paladin specifically for the blind effect. During trash pulls it can be super useful, and I also use to weave it in with my other defensive cooldowns to always ensure I have either a defensive buff up or a debuff (blind) on the enemy I'm tanking.

Other than that, I agree with most of what you are saying here. Just wanted to point out that flash weaving used to be a big thing for Paladins (less so now since you have extra defensive cooldowns to cycle through).

DRK CDs are meant to be stacked. That's why you have two with only 60s recasts and a potential 4 cross-class cooldowns. Shadowskin and Shadow Wall by themselves are fine but anything else should be paired up with something. (Dark Mind+Conva, Dark Dance+Foresight, etc.) Also DA Dark Mind is OP as fuck on bosses with magic based tank busters. If you stack it with Shadowskin or Shadow Wall that's 50-60% reduced damage. Up to 70-80% with Reprisal/Delirium up.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Too long to quote

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Sorry, but I see some confusing info there.

First, your "As well as HP regen on the server tick scaling with maximum health which a Warrior naturally has a slight advantage over Drk in base." is in fact, wrong. Yes, you gain more HP per tick, but you actually lose more HP per hit, so in fact, both are the same.

Second, judging Mercy Stroke and Sole Survivor from a "healing per second" perspective doesn't mean anything, since there's another requirement for both of them to take effect (And Sole Survivor is fare more forgiving in this regard, even though the cooldown is longer.)

And finally, your healing potency completely disregard the actual ratio towards your HP. Apart from when you use Bersek, Inner Beast doesn't hit for really more than Soul Eater. As an example, let's assume a DRK and WAR that both have 10000 HP unbuffed, can hit with Soul Eater/Inner Beast for 1000 and are constantly hit with 1500 damage.

When buffed, the WAR will have 12500 HP, get hit for 1500 and heal for 1000, thus ending with 12000 (96% remaining HP)
When buffed, the DRK will still have 10000 HP, get hit for 1200 and heal for 1000, thus ending with 9800 (98% remaining HP)

The bigger point here is that Defiance doesn't increase the healing effect from Inner Beast, thus your "potency per second" doesn't reflect any real situation.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Doesnt check out bud. Storm path and inner beast are both damage mitigation. Berserk affects all the self healing and bloodbath has higher uptime on a Warrior.

The difference is notable in practice on a Ifrit HM solo for instance. The healing potency difference which is certainly there even if you ignore the passive mitigation on Path/IB . Ifrit for example will be untargetable multiple times in the fight, soul eater/bloodbath/IB/Path is automatically discredited at these times where as Second Wind/Thrill/Equilibrium/Clemency are available or running out their clock during this Downtime. These advantages arent there. There isnt a self-healing advantage. You can post the Defiance vs Oath/Grit till one is blue is in the face it is not relevant here. Drks values remain visibly, practically and mathematically lower in self-healing.

Im not ignoring Grit. It is irrelevant here after IB, Storms Path, Berserk and the superior uptime of Bloodbath.

so according to faytte drk is totally fine as is? because thats what i read from his post? or did i oversee something here? o.O

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Ifrit for example will be untargetable multiple times in the fight, soul eater/bloodbath/IB/Path is automatically discredited at these times where as Second Wind/Thrill/Equilibrium/Clemency are available or running out their clock during this Downtime.

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Again, not relevant in any real situation since you'll have a healer by your side who will keep eveybody up with a single spell.

It's exactly like the "Shield Oath/Grit is better than Defiance because the healing boost is only 20%". Yes, in theory, it's true, but in practice, both are the same.

And you also didn't take into account Abyssal Drain too, which is marvelous for fight with multiple targets.