Monk: Fists of Earth change request

This is just an idea. I feel that "Fist of the Earth" should be a "kind of" tanking stance. Since not very many use it over the damage stance (none of the monks i've ever seen ever use it!).

Fists of the Wind
Increases Damage Reduction, Evasion, and Parry Chance by 12%, while lowering damage dealt by 30%.
Increases enmity gain from all attacks.
Removes positional requirements from all abilities.

This would give Monks a chance to tank in a pinch if they had to. It would also let them party tank in party finder dungeons.

They would by no means be main tanks. However I think some variety and interesting abilities to classes to make them more unique would be cool!

Would the damage penalty on this offset using it as a DPS stance when you have a bad tank who plays spin the mobs and places them with their backs to lava / walls / cliffs? :/

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Would the damage penalty on this offset using it as a DPS stance when you have a bad tank who plays spin the mobs and places them with their backs to lava / walls / cliffs? :/

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It also removes all the penalties for positional's as well. You have to remember that MONK is still a high skill DPS class. The damage removed but positional removal balances itself out.

Of course, since its a stance you can probably take the mob, tank it properly until the tank gets it back.

Lol 12% damage reduction. You'll still end up eating dirt with that little mitigation.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Lol 12% damage reduction. You'll still end up eating dirt with that little mitigation.

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They arn't made to be main tanks. However the 12% chance to completely avoid an attack (whilst RNG) is also helpful.

Why? Just keep as is you can stance dance to FoE if you get hit by an aoe by accident. No other reason beyond maybe soloing to use it. Offtanking is already done by a second tank for 8 man, why do we need a third tank?

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Why? Just keep as is you can stance dance to FoE if you get hit by an aoe by accident. No other reason beyond maybe soloing to use it. Offtanking is already done by a second tank for 8 man, why do we need a third tank?

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Its not meant to be something you use or rely on. Its a pinch thing, in case one of the off tanks goes down. You can become a semi-tank and tank it.

If a monk uses its parry and buffs he can probably tank pretty well for a good thirty seconds.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Offtanking is already done by a second tank for 8 man, why do we need a third tank?

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Not all of everybody's in-game time is spent in 8-mans.

But it still seems useless and a balance nightmare. Thinking of a design change is fine, but balance should also be looked at. As is no melee dps can off tank (unless we count WAR LOL) and giving that to monk gives them huge advantage over the other melee dps. I mean the more useless skill is fist of wind which gets much less use than fist of earth or fire.

However, this is when Fist of Earth is getting used and the absolute best monks will use Fist of Earth to survive things in a pinch.

The other thing to note is that if your tank dies in anything outside of 8 man content it is because of a two things usually:
1) He pulled too much and the healer can't keep him alive (in which case you'll get clobbered within a couple of seconds anyways)
2) Healer went AFK (in which case, you will also die within a few seconds as well)

as others have pointed out, fist of wind needs the more immediate attention, fist of earth already has its place and right now, this change would ruin some of them, just because of the high amount of damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

as others have pointed out, fist of wind needs the more immediate attention, fist of earth already has its place and right now, this change would ruin some of them, just because of the high amount of damage reduction.

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Well, what if I changed the suggestion for Fist of Wind instead? Evasion tanking.

Fists of Earth was amazing in T13 progression. Just because it isnt useful in 4 man dungeons, dosent mean it isnt useful. It really is an ability to stance dance into during hardcore progression.

Does this mean 95% of the playerbase wont find a use for it? Yeah. Dosent mean it needs to be changed however.

Dude...op...just stop

They should try out hybrid classes again. I always felt pugilist could have a 2nd job as a tank. There is no reason to add a -damage modifier as missing every positional should take care of that.

I think the core mechanics would work like warrior. Replace GL with some other stack that improves survivability (evasion, parry, hp% up, damage reduction%).
To prevent breaking the light armor theme of the class, they should also, like warrior, get hp and healing % increases.

Monk is perfect to me as a pure dps. A second job (blackbelt maybe?) would remove all monk job skills (fist of fire, Dragon kick etc) and give plenty of room to add more tanking skills. Then the enmity+ for basic skill would need to be tied to the job (for low level dungeon purposes)

Ps.
I made this up on the spot

It should be used when there is unavoidable damage just because certain players don't use it doesn't make it useless.

If anything dancer would be the branch class and would be a healer or dps/support. Regardless stop trying to make monk have a tank ability.

If anything I would prefer to see fists of wind changes or a revamp on the effect it gives than change fist of earth which is okay the way it is.

I can think of an example such as in a Ravana EX learning group and you got lazy and didn't move away from the "Irfit dash" in time and got an extra vul up stack which you shouldn't be having. And your party is so bad that 2 ganas escape which means 3 stacks. While the party has 2 stacks which shouldn't kill. But it's okay because you have fist of the earth which could be what saved you from being dead.

If anything I think the most un-used out of the 3 is Fist of Wind. Had never used it and probably never will. Unless SE decides to throw in skill speed, then it might be worth using over Fist of Fire if it's high enough.

not sure if I agree with this but they need to do SOMETHING with the fists. They are all lame passive stances with one nearly useless and the other completely useless.

I .. What?
Why would you want this? Why on Eorzea would you want to turn a straight DD Job into some form of creepy tank hybrid?
We do not need multirole Jobs. (SCH/SMN Do not count, you can't be both at once)
Thats why we have the Job system. To give each Job a well defined role that it can specialize in.

If they're going to do ANYTHING to Fists of Earth, I'd much rather they did the following:
-Reduces Damage Taken by 10%
-Treat the Targets Front as both Flank and Rear. Only Front will grant positional bonuses.

What does this do? Lets us solo at pretty much full DPS while making it worthless in Party content, as you would never want to or need to be in front of the boss except in very specific circumstances.
Sick and tired of hitting mobs for 100 potency when Soloing. The positional requirements make for an interesting and complex boss rotation while making soloing incredibly annoying.

While we're at it, lets change Fists of Wind to provide a percentile bonus to Skill Speed instead of movement speed. Give us the choice between a small bonus to damage or a small bonus to attack speed.

there's 2 possible that i can immediately think of, one would be to add say a 5% attack speed buff to fist of wind, we wouldnt want to be in it permanetly because TP would drain out in a heartbeat, and rotation would become messy, but it would be good for rebuilding stacks quickly?
the other would be to make fist of wind remove positional requirements on skills, so for something similar to ravana with the all seeing sides, we go into fist of wind temporarily to avoid the damage penalty of missing positional, but do less than optimal damage if we stayed in it constantly.


either way, fist of earth/fire feel fine to me, the only thing that needs to be changed imo is fist of wind

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Originally Posted by Zamii

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I just want Wind Fists to make us Auto Attack like that one PGL during the early (25 or 30, i cant remember which) class story quests. (Can't remember if it was during the GLA or PGL quests)
Of course, lower the damage dealt so its basically a visual change or damage increase on par with Fire Fists.

Cos the animation for that was amazing. Doubt it'd EVER happen, but it would be amazing to let us do that on our Monks lol.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I .. What?
Why would you want this? Why on Eorzea would you want to turn a straight DD Job into some form of creepy tank hybrid?
We do not need multirole Jobs. (SCH/SMN Do not count, you can't be both at once)
Thats why we have the Job system. To give each Job a well defined role that it can specialize in.

If they're going to do ANYTHING to Fists of Earth, I'd much rather they did the following:
-Reduces Damage Taken by 10%
-Treat the Targets Front as both Flank and Rear. Only Front will grant positional bonuses.

What does this do? Lets us solo at pretty much full DPS while making it worthless in Party content, as you would never want to or need to be in front of the boss except in very specific circumstances.
Sick and tired of hitting mobs for 100 potency when Soloing. The positional requirements make for an interesting and complex boss rotation while making soloing incredibly annoying.

While we're at it, lets change Fists of Wind to provide a percentile bonus to Skill Speed instead of movement speed. Give us the choice between a small bonus to damage or a small bonus to attack speed.

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I'm not. I am just wanting to add an option for it. Giving the class a bit more options is a bad thing?

Tanking, isn't something they should be focused on, just something they could be able to do if your party can't find a tank or your tank leaves. It could also be useful in a situation where your tank dies.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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So you want it as an "option" then say its only for an extreme emergency?

My suggestion would provide more options than turning the skill into a "Stars have aligned in the worst way possible and now survive an extra hit".
Most of a Tanks mitigation comes from their Defense, of which MNKs have bugger all.
More than that, most dangerous bosses have a 'tankbuster' type skill, like Curators Sanctification which has clipped my MCH for 7k~ damage when a Tank turned him at a bad time.
Given that you would have 11k hp as a MNK, You'd get creamed before the healer could react to the sudden loss of life while theyre also trying to Raise the tank. Not to mention ho fast you'd die if you were already missing HP before the Tank died.

It'd be one hell of an unnecessary change to the skill. Also, its not as if we lack for Defensive abilities in an emergency anyway, FoE+KF+FF can keep you alive long enough for a recovery anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

So you want it as an "option" then say its only for an extreme emergency?

My suggestion would provide more options than turning the skill into a "Stars have aligned in the worst way possible and now survive an extra hit".
Most of a Tanks mitigation comes from their Defense, of which MNKs have bugger all.
More than that, most dangerous bosses have a 'tankbuster' type skill, like Curators Sanctification which has clipped my MCH for 7k~ damage when a Tank turned him at a bad time.
Given that you would have 11k hp as a MNK, You'd get creamed before the healer could react to the sudden loss of life while theyre also trying to Raise the tank. Not to mention ho fast you'd die if you were already missing HP before the Tank died.

It'd be one hell of an unnecessary change to the skill. Also, its not as if we lack for Defensive abilities in an emergency anyway, FoE+KF+FF can keep you alive long enough for a recovery anyway.

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Then, your entire first paragraph of your argument is unnecessary. The second part proves that it can be viable and used quite a bit. If I played a monk I think it would be fun party tanking dungeons when you don't have a tank around, or helping new players.

I figure, this would be used after a tank-buster hit and killed the tank so you can turn it on and put on your temps and immediately grab aggro over the Black Mage or healers since you already have a lot of DPS aggro.

It would still be used a lot more then the scholars "kill your pet" ability. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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If i wanted to Tank, I'd play a Tank job. Changing FoE like that would only make it useless entirely, its currently mildly useful in solo because we lack high potency hits and fights tend to drag out until we get everything rolling.
Its also the first Fist Skill we learn as a PGL. At level 22, your Earth Fists would be entirely useless and no Monk would ever even have it on their bars. You would iterally just be taking the skill away from Solo Monks and we need HELP in solo, not nerfs to satisfy some weird fantasy you have about a Job you clearly don't play.

Monks are Damage Dealers. Its our Role and we're damned good at it, we do not need to become pseudo-tank hybrids just so you can pretend you saved a wipe.
Even a BLM can "save" a potential wipe with Sprint, Manawall etc to give the Healer time to raise and repair.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If i wanted to Tank, I'd play a Tank job. Changing FoE like that would only make it useless entirely, its currently mildly useful in solo because we lack high potency hits and fights tend to drag out until we get everything rolling.
Its also the first Fist Skill we learn as a PGL. At level 22, your Earth Fists would be entirely useless and no Monk would ever even have it on their bars. You would iterally just be taking the skill away from Solo Monks and we need HELP in solo, not nerfs to satisfy some weird fantasy you have about a Job you clearly don't play.

Monks are Damage Dealers. Its our Role and we're damned good at it, we do not need to become pseudo-tank hybrids just so you can pretend you saved a wipe.
Even a BLM can "save" a potential wipe with Sprint, Manawall etc to give the Healer time to raise and repair.

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I changed it to Wind if you read or actually read some of what I said. However, I can see that you have a very "narrow" view on how your class should work. It is quite sad, however that mindset has ruined the fun of many games for me. No class in my opinion should be restricted to having to do one thing. There should be spells that change your play-style and allow you to do multiple things if you want to. Granted, they won't be as good as the main options but they still might be a fun way to play.

Next time you speak your mind though, actually read what they say. Thank you. =)

I for one, when I hear monk I do also think of a damage dealer and not a tank. However, I for one see them as both. However, I don't see them as Main tanks. I do see them however being able to tank easy content, like Neverreap if they wished.

You don't need classes able to perform multiple roles in this game because players can already job change. What you're suggesting just gives players an excuse to play a job in a suboptimal role to increase their special snowflake status.

Wanna tank? Change to a tank class. This isn't WoW where you're locked into one class your entire career

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

You don't need classes able to perform multiple roles in this game because players can already job change. What you're suggesting just gives players an excuse to play a job in a suboptimal role to increase their special snowflake status.

Wanna tank? Change to a tank class. This isn't WoW where you're locked into one class your entire career

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rever%21/page2

I think this type of thing would be very good for this game, Lawl! =D

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You don't need classes able to perform multiple roles in this game because players can already job change. What you're suggesting just gives players an excuse to play a job in a suboptimal role to increase their special snowflake status.

Wanna tank? Change to a tank class. This isn't WoW where you're locked into one class your entire career

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While I'm not a MNK main - I've used Fists of Earth as a tanking stance.... I don't think there's anything wrong with using it for that. I would NOT want to use it as a tanking stance for all content - especially raids - at all times, but it's fine for when you really need a few more moments of survival, AoE defense, or slowly progressing certain parts of a dungeon while waiting for a tank to come along. No, I don't play MNK to tank, I play MNK to DPS - but that's no reason not to give everything I could possible give when it's all available to me. I don't understand the "Not my job, not my problem, I'm going to ignore these skills" mentality.

Honestly, I've been in parties, on MNK, where the tank has either ditched before we even left the starting point, D/Ced and poofed, or died in a mob/boss gone wrong - thats where I throw Fists of Earth on, and throw my CDs (with staggered groupings) - Internal Release (if not already on GCD) + Bloodbath + Foresight.... Feather + Flurry + Mantra (if I didn't blow it trying to help keep the tank alive already), etcetc... and act like a temporary tank. Whether it be because we were tired of standing there and waiting and I pull small mobs with shoulder tackle + Arm of the Destroyer to tag, Throw cross classed MRD/LNC defensive CDs, and try to spam RockBreaker if there are more than one.... IE, act as a tank. Or, if shit hit the fan and I'm trying to give the healer some time to catch up and revive the tank before the snot is beaten out of them (IE, sacrifice that the situation may be able to be turned around).

While I wouldn't want Earth to be OP and don't mind that my DPS is forced to be down due to front-facing, I wouldn't mind it to be a tad more buffed :x
But that said, I really think Wind needs more attention.... only time I ever use it is to slowly inch ahead of the rest of the pack between raids, or if running back to an area after a boss/overpulledmob wipe. :| In that sense, it's just a gimmicky skill.

You also use it a lot on raids for aoes. The point is not to give monks an ementy granting tank stance. Fists of Earth is great right now, as people have said Fists of wind is next to useless compared to Earth and Fire.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

You also use it a lot on raids for aoes. The point is not to give monks an ementy granting tank stance. Fists of Earth is great right now, as people have said Fists of wind is next to useless compared to Earth and Fire.

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This. If anything needs a change, it's Fists of Wind. Add something to it, because the extra movement speed is pretty useless in 99% of cases.

I would like Fist of Earth to do the following:

Before: Fist of Earth: Reduces damage taken by 10%.

After: Fist of Earth: Decreases Auto-Attack speed by 2% while increasing maximum health by 15% and reduced damage taken by 5%.

So when I want to not be 1 shotted by LB1 in PVP I can use Fist of Earth instead of swapping in Vit acc. :cool:

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

This. If anything needs a change, it's Fists of Wind. Add something to it, because the extra movement speed is pretty useless in 99% of cases.

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Fist of Wind: Increases movement speed while decreasing Arm of the Destoyer TP cost to 70 and increasing silence duration to 3 seconds. :)

I think they need to re-balance PvP in general, but some complete skill changes like youz mentioned might be nice to spice up PvP.