To all 3.0 Tanks

First off I know how to tank but been healing mainly lately, now, if your in Dusk Vigil don't think you can pull Longstop (HM) style, especially if you have only 1500 more hp than the healer, last night I was in a party with a DRK that decided to pull half of the mobs between the second and third boss wearing striking gear and blamed me (the healer) for him losing 10%-25% from each hit, DV isn't a place for large pulls unless your properly geared for your role.

Guys, I think the OP is onto something. I know I never would've figured out that you should be well geared before you try to speed pull a dungeon if he hadn't told me. I'm so glad he opened my eyes to this super secret knowledge.

Now that I'm done being sarcastic...

So... because one DRK (who may or may not just be a DPS that decided to jump on the edgelord bandwagon) decided to do big pulls when he had no idea how to handle them, you decided to make a forum thread addressing every single person that plays tank in 3.0 to tell us something that the vast majority of us already know?

Okay.

First I thing when I entered DV for the first time was asking fir advice. The only tip I got was "dont take more than one group". And that's how I've been playing it ever since.

How anyone would just roll on, not knowing what they are doing just amazes me.

I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming baptism by fire.

Title should be "to all bad tanks wearing bad gear"

Multi-group pulls are perfectly fine if you're geared and playing properly.

Its the little people with the biggest voices. Something about compensating...

When I tank, I only take one mob at a time or maybe two if i'm feeling lucky. I never pull anymore than that *unless I know my healer can handle the heals.* Hell, when I go into a new dungeon.. I take the groups one at a time. They can hate me as much as they want but atleast we will get through the dungeon with no mob wipes :cool::cool:

Multi group pulls are perfectly fine when you are geared. He should have done the heal/dps check with a small mob before he wanted to pull in the whole universe.

Speed run while lvl synced on dungeons under lv 49 and above 51 with the exception of lv 60 dungeon, isn't a very good idea.

More like, tanks if I wait like ten seconds to make sure you stop please don't start pulling again because I just put my turret down and now you're out range.
kthx

Aren't all "of Striking" items restricted to PUG/MNK only?

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Originally Posted by MidnightS

Aren't all "of Striking" items restricted to PUG/MNK only?

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Not jewelry.

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Originally Posted by MidnightS

Aren't all "of Striking" items restricted to PUG/MNK only?

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Not the accessories. The issue sounds like a dps turned DRK, who saw tanks in STR accessories doing big pulls in easy content and figured it was the norm for anywhere. I cringe every time I see a DRK in the party, and about half the time I'm pleasantly surprised by a good tank.

DF speedruns really chafe my pomelos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMZtYQb3C2o

Eh, uh oh... uhm.....

Hrmm.....


Whoops! LOL

I did dv with a healer friend my first time his second. He told me if tank refuses to pull 2 groups you do it. At I130 gear blm using cool downs my friend kept me Alive while aoe and tanked 2 groups at a time so yeah.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

if you have only 1500 more hp than the healer

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The term I use is "Tissue Paper Tank"

And on the first 3 days of Early Acces, Every single DRK was made of tissue paper, mainly because I think a lot of DPS decided to try it, and hadn't the slightest clue how to tank.

Beyond that, most DRK's are squishy.

Like in "Speedpull" mode. A PLD will last 4 hits, a WAR will last 2 and a DRK will last 1 hit unless I use Benediction as the first cast.

If you never give the healer enough breathing room to cast Cure 2 and Regen, using your cool downs then the healer will be stuck spamming Cure 2 until they're out of mana.

To be fair, Vengeance (WAR Skill) Is a very tanky ability that is great for tanking large pulls of mobs. If we had a DD Equivalent That + Eye for an Eye should make any war hold their own once half decently geared.

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Originally Posted by Skypirate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMZtYQb3C2o

Eh, uh oh... uhm.....

Hrmm.....


Whoops! LOL

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Meanwhile not a single defensive cooldown was used.

Yeah the problem here isn't HP. In fact the extra HP from VIT accessories really doesn't make that big of a difference because a bigger HP pool isn't going to overcome too high a rate of incoming damage.

You really cannot pull large enough groups in the new dungeons for it to matter if a tank is in HP or STR gear. As long as the general iLevel is up to snuff you get plenty of HP from the left side gear.

Tanks need to learn to use their damn cooldowns.

To all 3.0 Healers:

Please do not suddenly go afk without a warning while I am tanking and doing a chain pulling as that, not a big pull mind you.
Is it really that hard to know getting yourself ready for the next pull when there is only one left from the first pull and is low health?
Is it a wonder to know to pop sprint to catch up if you are fallen behind to a Tank who is slowly walking to the next pull?
Is it to hard to type "wait" if you want to catch a glimpse of breath if you want to when the tank only tank one mob and is over geared ?

I don't know if this is a new trend but I find myself lately dying a lot due to pulling while the healer is way fallen behind. Let be honest, have to have a second check to ascertain the healer is with the party for EACH and EVERY pull is way more annoying than have to check for Regen in the past. What really ticks me off is for someone like Healer, who has the luxury to pop Sprint at any given time with no consequences fails to catch up with the party which never use sprint, in term of speed... I am well aware part of it is also my fault but if the healer is not so fail at his job, how he is so fallen behind in a normal run?


Not all 3.0 Tank are bad nor not all 3.0 Healer are horrible. It is so bad of you to group the rest of the 3.0 Tank to a minority of Tank who failed to grasp the so-called what so obvious, much like how I grouped up all 3.0 healer to one fail category for an example.

I am offended big time !!!

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Not jewelry.

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Well, technically that's "of Slaying" gear, but I digress. ;p

I only pull like that when I'm with my friends cause I know they can handle it.

Those who do it with random DF's are crazy and just looking for a fight.

Most I meet in DF are low on dps, terrible on healing, and just plain ignore the important mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

I only pull like that when I'm with my friends cause I know they can handle it.

Those who do it with random DF's are crazy and just looking for a fight.

Most I meet in DF are low on dps, terrible on healing, and just plain ignore the important mechanics.

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Yeah that's pretty much How i was on that pull I linked. I Was partied with my friends and it was my first time in that dungeon and they assured me that I would be fine pulling the next pull LOL. So I grabbed the Juggernaut without popping any buffs. Ofc I know now that I need to be more cautious but I would never goof around like that with Randoms.

I'm not sure about big pull.. 3.0 just started and all gear still new and not high tier yet.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

To all 3.0 Healers:

Please do not suddenly go afk without a warning ...

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Who the hell goes AFK during a fight? There are stupid tanks that chain pull (never do this), failing to kill the last mob before moving on, thus the mob follows the tank, and the healer and DPS are still in combat mode so their HP and MP/TP doesn't recover. There are dozens if not hundreds of threads on the healer forum that pinpoint stupid things that tanks do, and this is at the top of the list next to "doesn't know how to use cooldowns"

Wait for the healer to show they are ready before you move (eg re-casting stoneskin, or simply having you targeted), or you will be the one blamed for wiping on trash. I'd say 80% of tanks don't even wait for stoneskin, even if the healer is capable of doing swiftcast-stoneskin II. So because the tank was impatient they're the only one without the buff.

If you're going to halfass speedpull, pull all the mobs to a point, and completely stop, that signals the healer that you're going to engage the mobs. If you backtrack or go around a corner without the healer having line of sight, you are going to wipe.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Speed run while lvl synced on dungeons under lv 49 and above 51 with the exception of lv 60 dungeon, isn't a very good idea.

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Well, it depends. For my lowbie dungeon roulette on SCH today, I was put in Sastasha story mode with a DRK. The DRK and I glanced at each other's gear and HP, and both went GLEE!!!!

I told him to pull as much as he wanted. We were done in 15 minutes. That was fun.

(I also told the newbie lancer that what he was experiencing right now was probably not something to ever expect again.)

WHAT? PULL MORE? OK.

At the same time don't ask for big pulls if you can't actually handle big pulls either. ;)

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Originally Posted by MidnightS

Well, technically that's "of Slaying" gear, but I digress. ;p

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The first set of Coil drops were shared, though they were Striking/Maiming alike.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/1d4e2d3f761/

The Philosophy(Our very first tomes) tomestone gear was likewise the same
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Da...ker_of_Maiming

The Mythology (Our very first WEEKY LOCKED tomes) tomestone gear was the first deviation, giving only "Slaying"
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/He...ace_of_Slaying

Gear introduced after that became "OF slaying", so calling accessories "Of striking" or "Of maiming" or "Of slaying" is as interchangable as it can get.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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I've always tanked in FFXIV and I've always followed most (if not all) of what you wrote, but I never even had to "think" about those things. And where I'm going with this is that recently I started leveling a healer and I am genuinely astonished by how bad some tanks can be. After all since I played only the Paladin / Dark Knight I never had the chance to see how other's do their business in single parties... boy there are some bad tanks out there.

And reading from your link, I'm not sure if I feel better or worse that this has always been a thing. I'd say that about a third of the times I go on DF I get good tanks, but then I've witnessed things that I do not understand... The worst as some have mentioned are the DPS-in-disguise Dark Knights... Going in without Dark Arts (in essence cutting their skills in half and halving their own dps), not using their defensive cool-downs... Though to be fair I see tanks not using CDs in every class.


Some of them save everything for the boss and use it all in one go. What the hell.


Edit: On an aditional note, now that I play a healer I also noticed how bad some of them are! Spamming cure or the class-equivelant, not applying dots on enemies, not buffing, not curing status-effects...

Whenever Tank vs Healer,
Two DPS starting to grab popcorns.

Doing big pulls is fine, as long as your HEALER AND TANK are geared.

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Originally Posted by Swordphobic

Doing big pulls is fine, as long as your HEALER AND TANK are geared.

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And if the DPS is good. If it isn't good, the healer WILL run out of MP.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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1/ Apparently, a lot of healer I meet up in Duns by using DF, A LOT. But I won't group all the 3.0 Healers are the same as this minority

2/For an over geared tank and party, how much MP does the healer really need to heal for each pull of 3-4 max trash mobs? I would say 6k MP is plenty to heal through each pull. And by the time, we reach to third pull, their MP regain skill should be off CD and ready to be used again. It is understandable if Healer run out of MP if Tank does a BIG PULL, but if run out of Mp by chain pull 3-4 mobs max at a time is just poor Mp skill management.

3/Again, for an overgear Tank and party, and chain pulling, not BIG PULLING, Stoneskin is not necessary and can easily be done without. It helps, yes but not a must. If tank dies by taking 3-4 mobs at a time, don't blame on Tank for not having a Stoneskin, the Healer's skill should be in question.

4/A good tank will never put himself in a position where he is out of sight of the Healer. This is totally Tank's fault, no argument from me.

Some Healer has problems healing big pull even if the tank is well geared. Chain pull is the next option for a smooth and efficient run.

Then again, what I fail to understand is why the healer fall behind the party all of the sudden, even without sprint, and they do have Sprint for free to boost with as well.

Then again, I am not here for that but rather, there are good tanks and so are bad tanks. There are also good healers as well as bad healers, so don't group everything into one category.

You will honestly see a lot of this because a lot of people are trying out tanks for the first time many say its the easiest role in the game. They put on their Axe,Great sword or Shield/sword and are ready to take on the world only to be mauled by 6 mobs because they didnt use a CD followed by shout that the healer didnt heal them its going to happen here is my advice

1) if its your first time tanking big pulls use your CD's you have them for a reason
2) make sure your healer is up to speed
3) check your DPS gear cause if stuff going to die really slow big pulls are not your friend

for you healers i say this
1) If you want the tank to do 2-3 mobs at a time learn to DPS a tank really shouldnt need 100% cure uptime you can throw in a sneaky stone III or get those DoTs out especially if you dont want them pulling more then 1 pack at a time
2) You have buffs and CD's also that increase healing

and in closing you should always just do what the group is comfortable with

most of the dungeons in HW, have gates, so you can't pull *to much* usually. i'm not main healer, and havn't tried healing any HW stuff yet, but it always amazed me in ARR, how any healer could fail at speedruns. well the be fair, i found WHM to be really sucky, so i couldn't do SR with WHM, but with SCH it was so easy. and i was tanking in speedruns, and other WHM did it perfectly fine.
i tanked for semi large pulls, in HW, and some average geared healers, have kept me up just fine on my DRK, so i don't understand why some overgeared healers can't, or why ppl are whining about DRK being squishy...you got like 5 def CD (counting war cross-class) dark dance is like 50% chance to dodge with dark arts, and dark passenger that can blind all mobs, with dark arts, so basically most of the mobs won't even hit you, for 20sec - it's crazy if healers can't keep up with all that.
Ofc DPS matter too, since if the fight draws out to much, tank will loose CDs, and healers will run out of MP; there's an awful lot of awful players, in DF, these days.
I usually feel the healer, out, before i start pulling more - often they seem to have problem healing me, even on the first 2-mob-pull!! so i'm just nope...not pulling more than that.
I mean, if healers could just do their job, and heal, instead of wannabee DPS, it would be easier for tank to know how much they can safely pull - then again, if you get 2 melee, there's not much reason to pull large groups.

so my first run was on healer. everything is cool. I think the real elites dash through at that time (first week).
2nd round I ran as war to 60. I was shocked how many ppl said "good tanking" why I struggling to keep everyone's hate under 70%
3rd time I ran as blm (4th week - now)... OMG... dusk vigil...
4/5 of my first set of dusk vigil (drk drk pld war) can't even manage to hold hate of the pack of 3 mobs. some can't even hold 2 mobs. If it's DD over hit then it's ok. NO it's healer trying to keep the tank's hp up, and 1+ of the mob will run to the healer @ first 2 heals. The worse for these 4 bad experiences was the pld... he didn't even realize how many mobs were there since some were attacking the healer in the back. So, he ran off to grab next group while 3 of us struggling with 2 adds behind. It was such an experience... good thing the healer was geared...
I was so proud of my tanking skills after these...which is I rarely tank dungeons. I only used my war for Hunts.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Some Healer has problems healing big pull even if the tank is well geared. Chain pull is the next option for a smooth and efficient run.

Then again, what I fail to understand is why the healer fall behind the party all of the sudden, even without sprint, and they do have Sprint for free to boost with as well.

Then again, I am not here for that but rather, there are good tanks and so are bad tanks. There are also good healers as well as bad healers, so don't group everything into one category.

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You're not understanding why Chain pulling is bad
1) It doesn't allow the healer to recover MP, because you still have targets not yet killed.
2) You're not accounting for CD's that the healer has.

If I have to heal another idiot tank by using Tetra and Benediction, consecutively, because they didn't give me enough breathing room to cast DS+Regen at the beginning, they are going to eat dirt the second time they do that, because those CD's will not be available, and there's no MP available to do anything else. This is exactly what happens when you chain pull.

So to put it bluntly. Wait for the healer to signal that it's okay to keep going, otherwise you are at fault for the next wipe. This means wait for Stoneskin, or wait for their MP to recover.

I'll follow the tank as soon as they start moving, but if they start moving and engage a target before I'm at 90% MP, they will have no right to complain if they wipe the party.

As a Tank, you have no excuse for being impatient. Not waiting the 10 seconds or so for Protect and Stone Skin II to cast by a WHM, or shields from an AST or SCH before engaging trash mobs, means you are intentionally playing bad.

Nobody is going AFK unless they are playing bad. What sometimes does happen is that the loot window pops up and the other players have to decide if that item is something they want, if you can't wait, they may just have to click need/greed on everything and then throw away gear you might possibly want.

In every DF I've played, the worst "bad" player is always the tank. I'm fine if you want to overpull a bit, but if you go running for the first boss room door without even waiting for protect, you're going to die.

It doesn’t matter what kind of role you fulfil in a group, the size of the group that is pulled should not be determined based on the gear someone is wearing, but how comfortable everyone is with the size of the pull. Even if you have a tank that is confident enough about his skills and pulls the entire floor, his/her healer or dps might not. The tank should then respect the fact that the group is not able/willing to handle his pulls and tone it down. If the tank is not confident and sticks to pulling 1 group of mobs only, then the others should respect that decision as well.

By forcing a bigger pull, you will only increase the risk of wiping, which is never a good idea.

Some might be seeking such a challenge, but others might not. You are not helping the situation if you complain to the healer that he/she was not able to keep the tank alive, or that the dps is too low to kill the mobs in time before the tank runs out of buffs/the healer runs out of MP, or have a dps pull more mobs then the tank can handle and complain that the group wiped.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

More like, tanks if I wait like ten seconds to make sure you stop please don't start pulling again because I just put my turret down and now you're out range.
kthx

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Well, to be honest, there have been so many occasions where a DPS appears to be in a hurry and tries to force the tank into pulling the mobs/boss. Due to this, a tank would get triggered whenever something happens in the boss arena which was not caused by the him/herself.

A tank like myself would be triggered by something like that and in an automatic “panic” response, i would run in, trying to prevent the boss from running rampant and killing the entire group.

When Heavensward came out, i had the foggiest idea what the skills of a machinist were and how the turrets worked. So the second a machinist deploys his/her turret, i used to think that the machinist was in a hurry and forced a pull. Now that i know better, i won’t be jumping in when a non-aoe turret is used, because it won’t automatically start pulling the boss. It would be a different issue, it the machinist would deploy the turret with the pulsating lightning aoe, which WOULD pull the boss when placed next to it.

Just keep in mind that not every tank is familiar with the mechanics of other jobs. (^_~ )

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

I did dv with a healer friend my first time his second. He told me if tank refuses to pull 2 groups you do it. At I130 gear blm using cool downs my friend kept me Alive while aoe and tanked 2 groups at a time so yeah.

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I hate when people do that. If i’m tanking a dungeon, i pull with the mindset i and the rest of the group can handle the pull. If i’m not pulling more, then there’s a reason for that. I might not have enough cooldowns ready for when the fight goes sideways.

If you believe the group can pull more, say so. Don’t just go pulling the next pack.

The same applies the other way around. If you think that the tank is pulling too much, say so.

Knowing what you and your party can handle is half the battle.

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Originally Posted by KazuneHypnotik

When I tank, I only take one mob at a time or maybe two if i'm feeling lucky. I never pull anymore than that *unless I know my healer can handle the heals.* Hell, when I go into a new dungeon.. I take the groups one at a time. They can hate me as much as they want but atleast we will get through the dungeon with no mob wipes :cool::cool:

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I fully support this. I do the same thing. When i’m new to a duty, i want to test out the waters before going full out. I want to know what to expect when i’m in a duty. I rather be safe then sorry and i don’t care if the duty takes a few minutes longer because if it. Clearing a duty smoothly is more important than the time in which we clear it.

Speedruns are fine and all, but there are plenty of runs where killing one pack at a time is only slightly slower than pulling more, while making the duty go smoother in the process. Just don’t put yourself and the rest of the party into a tight spot where stress levels rise rapidly and the chance of wiping increases tremendously.

And last of all, talk to one another. Don’t assume that everyone is on your level.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

*snip*

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It really depends.
Yesterday I was running Sastasha HM with my i150+ SCH, the whole time before the DRK was speedrunning, and all was fine. Then he pulled the whole last room before Kraken. He was decently geared as well, but I just couldn't keep up with the damage, by the time my Physic finished casting, he has lost more HP than it could have healed him for, unless it crit. I even spent all my Aetherflow stacks on Lustrate. And yet he still died. No idea if he was using his CDs wrong, or dodging the AoE wrong, or if I did something wrong (though there was not much more I could have done, Eye for an Eye would have helped, sure, but I HAD to heal on CD because he would have died anyways, there was no not-casting downtime).
So yeah, sometimes it just doesn't work.