Anyone else think NIN should be able to Goad itself?

Monks now have Purification, which will help on longish fights with little downtime if any are coming.

Dragoons have traited Invigorate and lower skill speed than the other two melees.

NINs have only non-traited invigorate for self TP restoring and high skill speed when Huton is up.

It doesn't really seem fair. Even if Bard and Machinist are taken into consideration, NINs are still gimped on self TP restoration vs skill speed.

Nah, if I could goad myself, tanks would hate me.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Nah, if I could goad myself, tanks would hate me.

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By the time tanks run out of TP, they should have enough aggro to sit comfortably and just auto attack until a decent amount of TP is restored on its own or just use skills as TP is regenerated if their gear is decent.

You'd really be contributing more to the group overall as a NIN by being able to goad yourself during long fights.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Nah, if I could goad myself, tanks would hate me.

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No I won't, I got Equilibrium.

ninja has Invigorate....

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

ninja has Invigorate....

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An untraited invigorate with a high skill speed, as mentioned in my OP.

It was becoming inadequate even in some ARR content (frequently I found myself using invigorate twice in WoD on the dragon and still running out of TP), with even more skill speed in HW and no TP management added for NIN, it's sure to get even worse.

It's worth noting that similar values of skill speed have less impact post 50; so despite the claim there's just more skill speed, there... actually really isn't.
(There's also been some discussion among dragoons in my FC about skill speed being more valueable now due to the impact on Blood of the Dragon combo rotations but that's up in the air still and mostly tangential)

That said, they're already a hasted class. I do feel for you guys.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

No I won't, I got Equilibrium.

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I got...Flash spam and Shield Swipe procs... ;_;

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I got...Flash spam and Shield Swipe procs... ;_;

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Don't worry, man. I got you.

Dark Knight has.. Ninja!1

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Originally Posted by Adire

Monks now have Purification, which will help on longish fights with little downtime if any are coming.

Dragoons have traited Invigorate and lower skill speed than the other two melees.

NINs have only non-traited invigorate for self TP restoring and high skill speed when Huton is up.

It doesn't really seem fair. Even if Bard and Machinist are taken into consideration, NINs are still gimped on self TP restoration vs skill speed.

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Have you considered asking the MCH/BRd or a TP boost?

I had a Ninja with me in Fractal who complained after second boss that he ran out of TP. So i said if he needed TP just ask and ill Promote.
He ignored me.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Have you considered asking the MCH/BRd or a TP boost?

I had a Ninja with me in Fractal who complained after second boss that he ran out of TP. So i said if he needed TP just ask and ill Promote.
He ignored me.

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Yes. This is just a discussion over the lack of fairness there is for melees and self-tp restoration. A bard or machinist may not always be available to a NIN. In statics there will likely be one or the other in a good group, but in future content (such as the likely 24-man raids to eventually come), it's up to chance.

But didn't ninja has less TP consumption for each skill than other job? Eventually it will even out? Meh, I can't remember lol.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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I played Monk all through 2.x, Only time i had issue with TP was fights that just never had melee downtime, and even then, Invig at the 550 TP mark and it was up again when i got back to half~ TP.
Proper use of Invig and not just leaving it till you run completely dry before using it gives you all the self restoration you need.
Also played Ninja a fair bit. Same deal there, Invig at the right time kept my TP up for the whole fight.

With all that being said, you can always slow down your DPS by leaving off DoTs or not hitting a skill every time you possibly can. TP is the natural inhibitor for physical DDs, Having the BRD or MCH eliminates that inhibitor. Without that, you just have to slow down.
And before you scream "But DPS checks!" If you arent managing your TP well enough to beat a DPS check, the problem isn't the Job.

Finally, if every DPS never had to ever worry about TP (Like BLMs with MP), Skills like Goad, Promote and Songs cease to have any meaning or purpose in a group setting.

Considering we, as bards and machinists loose dps as the sacrifice to use our tp restorations on the group vs nin able to restore tp to someone else in the group except themselves without the cost of mp or anything of the sort. I believe it is a fair trade off.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

I really don't see why not just like I don't see why melee are not able to make use of Quelling Strikes either or have a melee equivalent. Yeah Ninja specifically can transfer eminity to another target but if you overgear any Tank as any other class you are forced to hold back or else risk a potential death/angry tank.

There are at max 8 players per party but almost double the jobs yet some of the choices in regards to TP sustainability or eminity reduction are not standard amongst classes as a design choice. Having Bard is Machinist supply TP is all well and good but at least for Bard it is a direct decrease in damage in a state where, because they are technically a DPS, to meet a damage check. And yes you can time when you supply TP, etc.

It would be nice to live in a system where you would take or want X, Y or Z and not need X and Y because of a long fight but also Z because it is a long fight and we could use utility damage speed it up per TP cost. But also need W (a Tank) to generate a lot of threat because of lack of standardization which means less damage and a longer fight due to not necessarily using high potency combos.

I know, I know you can get around all of this and the game is doable without these tools on all classes but this is just something that has erk'd me since I started playing. So long story short yes I agree. :)

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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Hmm. I tend to use invigorate as a monk and NIN at the same time. At 570 TP or so. Yet my experience has been quite different in WoD against the dragon, using that example again. Even when I stop using touch of death/mutliation when running low. With purification, even a long fight similar to that should no longer be a problem for a monk.

Doing that on NIN at this point, with stacked skill speed and potentially even longer fights for a while due to not being overgeared and harder fights in general, I foresee problems.

A person in a LS I'm in has NIN at 60 and did dummy combat for a bit and experienced TP starvation quite quickly as well.

I also believe Promote and Paeon would still be useful in certain situations, such as for melees fresh out of raise.

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Originally Posted by Kaela

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

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Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

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Originally Posted by Kaela

Considering we, as bards and machinists loose tp as the sacrifice to use our tp restorations on the group vs nin able to restore tp to someone else in the group except themselves without the cost of mp or anything of the sort. I believe it is a fair trade off.

Also, I am afraid that if nin could goad themselves. Many of those bad ninjas wouldn't even share the extra tp with anyone in the group.

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Well in the same respect you can find "bad Bards" that refuse to sing even foes not even mentioning a ballad or Swiftsong to help dungeon completion time. Heck you could find a Summoner that doesn't assist with Eye for an Eye mitigation or raises. A bad apple example shouldn't exclude the usage of Goad on self for when it is necessary or beneficial to the group.

I think NIN should get something to replenish its own TP, since the untreated Invigorate isn't that strong.

But it shouldn't be Goad.
That's exclusively group utility and it should stay so. We just need something else.
Also kind of ridiculous to cheer yourself on, lol.

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Originally Posted by Superskull85

Well in the same respect you can find "bad Bards" that refuse to sing even foes not even mentioning a ballad or Swiftsong to help dungeon completion time. Heck you could find a Summoner that doesn't assist with Eye for an Eye mitigation or raises. A bad apple example shouldn't exclude the usage of Goad on self for when it is necessary or beneficial to the group.

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Right, and you can find NINs who never Goad.
But Eye for an Eye and Goad are tools for the party. Some might not care for the party and not use it, but Goad shouldn't compete as a utility tool or a self-buff.

It doesn't matter that some would use it smartly or not, we just don't need that.
We just need some other form of TP management for ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Possibly, but we've already got that as a potential problem with Bards who refuse to play songs for other DPS. The other melees have the tools to be more resistant to TP starvation as well. They should not need goad as badly as NINs need it.

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Okay you have a fair point, both you and superskull, I've been in with those kind of bards and they tick me off. However, as I mention it is a trade off. As bards we give mp and our dps for everyone to gain back tp. Meanwhile, nin has none. Except for the fact they cannot give it to themselves. It all comes down to tp management. Only tp regeneration as bards we have is the same invigorate you are mentioning. And that was a nightmare when 2.4 gear was released and most of the poetics gear gave us nothing but skill speed. I knew bards that would run out within a few minutes of a pull because it was so high.

Skill speed is not as much as an issue now, however it is all about balance and knowing how to conserve when you need to.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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Not being entirely self sufficient is actually a good thing, surprisingly enough.
That being said, if you're going through 1k TP in less than 2 minutes with natural regen and invig, something seems quite wrong.

Dummy testing is not real combat testing.
Dummies don't fight back, and they don't have phases or periods that slow down your TP consumption. Raid bosses tend to have situations where you break away from the boss, either to avoid AoEs, deal with adds or just Titan-like periods where the boss simply isn't there.

Of course, there are exceptions, like Fractals first 2 bosses, where there is essentially no downtime and you fight for 5 minutes straight. But again, those situations are outside the norm.
Even something as simple as not refreshing GL3 when im low has given my TP time enough to regen to an acceptable state while building the stacks back up. Yes, i take a hit to my DPS to do that, but thats kind of the whole point of the TP system.

The 100 extra TP a DRGs Invig gives isn't the reason why it has less TP trouble than Monks or Ninjas, Its more to do with the slower pace of its damage dealing.
Consider dropping Huton when you feel you're going to run dry on TP. It may sound like a horrible idea, but losing the massive Skill Speed bonus will let your Regen bring your TP up enough to go back to full burst.
TP is intended to inhibit a physical DD from doing 100% DPS all the time no matter what. Its a balance factor.
Some people don't see it, but that's exactly how a Bard and Machinist boost overall DPS for the party. The day they let everyone regulate their own TP is the same day they delete Songs/Promote and beef up their damage to NIN/MNK/DRG levels.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

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No...it's not less than 2 minutes. The dragon boss fight can drag on (pun intended) for quite a bit longer than that, and there is no downtime. If group DPS is lacking, it can go on past 2 invigorate CDs. If SE adds more fights like that, NIN in its current state will be TP starved very quickly, even quicker and when the boss has even higher health most likely.

Also, dummy testing can be accurate when compared to certain fights. It simulates a no-downtime boss quite well. Like the dragon, there is no downtime on dummy testing. I think given that SE added Purification in the first place insinuates there may be further TP heavy fights in the near future.

And yeah, I'm aware. I've mentioned a few times now that in addition to the traited invigorate, Dragoon also has a slower skill speed to slow TP burn. DRG's damage is quite on par with monk and NIN now though. They don't need the skill speed to keep the damage up.

Goad: provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate some action or reaction.
"She goaded her on to more acts of daring through out the fight. "

I'm only okay with this if they rename it. Goading yourself sounds like the stupidest thing in the world by definition of the word.

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Originally Posted by Altijacek

I'm only okay with this if they rename it. Goading yourself sounds like the stupidest thing in the world by definition of the word.

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Agreed. They renamed Perfect Dodge though, so I'm sure they aren't above renaming other things :)

I thought Ninjas can cross class invigorate

you're supposed to play with another nin and goad eachother, I never goad anyone else if there is another nin in the group and in return he/she goads me back, there hasn't been much content in the game that has required much goading to be honest, with smart use of invigorate I can go for a long time, if the boss isn't dead under 5-6 minutes you have an actual problem.

I can see goad having massive uses in ex fights etc (hard content only).

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Originally Posted by Adire

Monks now have Purification, which will help on longish fights with little downtime if any are coming.

Dragoons have traited Invigorate and lower skill speed than the other two melees.

NINs have only non-traited invigorate for self TP restoring and high skill speed when Huton is up.

It doesn't really seem fair. Even if Bard and Machinist are taken into consideration, NINs are still gimped on self TP restoration vs skill speed.

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It sounds to me like you need an Ast to read you a few cards. TP cost reduction cards!

Goad is a piece of raid utility, and one that I find is rarely used as it is.
A good NIN will goad a MNK or BRD in their party before they even use their first invig then goad the MT as soon as it comes off cd.
A bad NIN wont use goad unless someone asks for TP.
A terrible NIN wont use goad at all even if someone asks for it.

Unfortunately in any DF group the first of the three examples is beyond rare and if NINs were able to goad themselves the latter two would only use it on themselves.
I think what would work best is making goad more appealing to use beyond helping the team. For example a trait that causes the NIN to gain the effect of goad at 50% effectiveness when used on a party member (Call it Goading as they are goading an ally on or something) and as the NIN will get this every time they use goad (where as you will be using goad on different party members each time) it will be as if they could goad themselves.

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Originally Posted by SuddenStorm8

a trait that causes the NIN to gain the effect of goad at 50% effectiveness when used on a party member

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This would be gold, in all honesty. Not only would it encourage the use of Goad, but it would also improve NIN's TP starvation issues (which are very real in fights that are worth a damn).

I haven't ran into tp issues in 60 lvls, there is a right and wrong time to pop invigorate. Even with nins high skill speed, doing mudras every 20sec pauses their tp expenditure temporarily negating it. If tp was an issue for nins you would be hearing about it and seeing it first hand, which isn't the case.

It's not a support move anymore if you can self cast. If nin has tp problems and SE wanted to do something about it they should go back on the nerfs where they increased tp cost in the first place, not removing utility.

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Originally Posted by SuddenStorm8

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Very nice suggestion here :)

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

I haven't ran into tp issues in 60 lvls, there is a right and wrong time to pop invigorate. Even with nins high skill speed, doing mudras every 20sec pauses their tp expenditure temporarily negating it. If tp was an issue for nins you would be hearing about it and seeing it first hand, which isn't the case.

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Have you done the WoD dragon fight in a lowish dps group without running low on TP? Maybe I'm just often in extremely terrible DPS groups. The fight normally lasts a while for me.

If so, please share your secret. I Invig at 570 TP and again when the CD is done and still often run low. The 60 NIN in my LS attested to being TP starved very quickly with the higher skill speed now in game.

just have another ninja goad you.

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Originally Posted by Adire

The dragon boss fight can drag on (pun intended).

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Ehem... Not seeing this as a problem as ninja right now is contending for the highest DPS. It's called balancing: some jobs are good dps for short fights, while others are good for longer fights (like T8 was). That being said, the real reason to purposely make jobs starve of TP and MP is to put use to the support skills by the lower dps jobs. Otherwise those baseless arguments of no one letting bards and machinists in their groups will have some standing.

There's reason why SE said Bard damage is fine (and didn't even comment on Machinist damage), and the reason being is that in real raids, they will be required and it's the casters who will now get the shaft seeing as people can just stack 3 melee for more damage (ranged LB already does more than caster LB). In the end, you complain about bards and machinists, but there will never be groups with both BLM and SMN if the groups have a reason to include casters at all.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

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>.>

Are you aware that in an extended fight or a short fight, a DRG should now be putting out very similar DPS to a NIN? NIN has an extremely high burst phase at the beginning, but unless you're on trash mobs, a DRG should catch them fairly quickly.

Difference is, NIN will run out of TP far sooner in a long fight and burn it faster on any fight due to high skill speed and low regen capability. Not sure how that's balanced.

And again, outside of a static or premade, there's no guarantee you will have a bard or machinist. That's why it's important that melees have decent TP regen too. And when long, low downtime fights come in, all except NIN will. That is not fair or balanced.

Bards particularly also have to be careful of when they sing. Burning your MP on one song, then the healer going down and needing MP when you can't provide it because you spent yours is a real risk.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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Then, knowing you CAN burn your TP fast you should maybe allow Huton to fall off, or intentionally slack a bit on timings to ensure you don't run dry.
The whole point is that you cannot sustain 100% dps for 100% of the time. With a BRD or MCH you can, but without one you need to play in a way that sustains your resource. I'm not sure why you're so against that concept.

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Originally Posted by Adire

>.>

Are you aware that in an extended fight or a short fight, a DRG should now be putting out very similar DPS to a NIN? NIN has an extremely high burst phase at the beginning, but unless you're on trash mobs, a DRG should catch them fairly quickly.

Difference is, NIN will run out of TP far sooner. Not sure how that's balanced.

And again, outside of a static or premade, there's no guarantee you will have a bard or machinist. That's why it's important that melees have decent TP regen too. And when long, low downtime fights come in, all except NIN will. That is not fair or balanced.

Bards particularly also have to be careful of when they sing. Burning your MP on one song, then the healer going down and needing MP when you can't provide it because you spent yours is a real risk.

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Since when is pugging considered in a raid situation? And I was already aware that dragoon was ahead of ninjas, which is why I made the fight length comparison. BTW, in case you somehow didn't figure it out, for long fights I was talking about BLM and certainly not a melee class. If one class does better than another 100% of the time and is self sufficient,at that, then why would people play the other class. Yet, I see plenty of people playing ninja.

Ninjas already have that cross class ability from Dragoons that allow us to restore our TP.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Then, knowing you CAN burn your TP fast you should maybe allow Huton to fall off, or intentionally slack a bit on timings to ensure you don't run dry.
The whole point is that you cannot sustain 100% dps for 100% of the time. With a BRD or MCH you can, but without one you need to play in a way that sustains your resource. I'm not sure why you're so against that concept.

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I'm not against that concept. Please understand.

I am against the concept of MNK and DRG having bright futures when it comes to TP management and keeping up max DPS during long, no downtime fights while NIN does not, however. With the new skill monk has and the adequate TP management DRG has, they will not have to sacrifice DPS nearly as quickly as a NIN will in long fights without BRD/MCH help.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Since when is pugging considered in a raid situation? And I was already aware that dragoon was ahead of ninjas, which is why I made the fight length comparison. BTW, in case you somehow didn't figure it out, for long fights I was talking about BLM and certainly not a melee class. If one class does better than another 100% of the time and is self sufficient,at that, then why would people play the other class. Yet, I see plenty of people playing ninja.

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Last I checked, WoD was a raid. And it was a raid primarily made of pugs.

The other melees are being set up to do fine in long fights due to TP management tools, NIN is not. A MNK and a DRG will be able to stay ahead of a BLM in DPS in future content with Purification and Invigorate, and traited Invigorate and slow skill speed.

NINs can't say the same though, not without getting help from a MCH or BRD. That's not fair at all. If/when Alexander is made pug friendly, or if/when another 24 man is made and a long fight is in either, NINs will be out of luck if they don't get MCH/BRD assistance. MNK and DRG will be fine without them.

Also, many people are unhappy with MCH right now and think it's inferior, yet I still see plenty playing it. Your point? People will play jobs even if they're believed by many to be inferior, that's just how it is.