MCH... I'm done.

Well, what hasn't been said about this class already? I'm not going to be saying the same things that everyone else has already said.

The purpose of this thread is to tell SE the situation that i have been forced into as a Machinist, after leveling to 60, gearing up and then clearing Bismarck EX, it finally hit me how bad this class actually is and the experience forced me to change jobs back to my DRG.


I waited for this class ever since it was announced, but after already playing BRD from 2.0 Launch, it hit me straight away that the class we got was just a clone with more rng put in and more micromanaging of your skills, ok fine, i could have lived with this but after seeing how BADLY MCH's (Including myself) parse even against tanks, i just don't want to drag my raid groups down by playing a class that can't compare to any other dps class out there and when they are forced into performing better because of the fact that no matter how lucky and perfect my rotations are, i still can't perform on the level that is required.

So, thank you Square Enix for creating a new class that is a clone rip-off from another class, putting in rng elements that make you fall asleep and just all around failing the dps players that wanted to play this class.

If they went easy on this RNG... I used Split Shot ten times in a row and never got a proc haha Once i'm 60, i'll go DRG or BLM, i'm done with mch

RNG is not a huge factor in DPS, something like 20 to 30. Gauss barrel is weak and low potency skills is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

RNG is not a huge factor in DPS, something like 20 to 30. Gauss barrel is weak and low potency skills is the problem.

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I disagree strongfly on the RNG part.

The RNG is at present costing a ridiculous amount of our damage.

I'd prefer the ammo system be used to instead add potency or a bonus effect (bleed? something?) to our abilities opposed to the current RNG status. just make it our flat out combo and then add potency through bullets/reload.

Potencies can easily be fixed, unlike other issues.
Also MCH isn't all that weak people already managing to parse over 1k on a dummy with it where the BRD's are still not getting beyond like 930.

If there are issues with actual skill kit that's where the worries should lie and MCH kit isn't all that bad as it works together and just needs a few potencies tweaked.
Unlike BRD which had a Gauss Barrel (WM) thrown into their kit which totally doesn't fit the BRD kit.

If you'r quitting over not enough dps due to potency, then I suppose gameplay doesn't matter to you.
Those that quit because of issues with the skill kit I can understand since that's not something which is guaranteed to be changed.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Snip.

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No MCN does 1k dps sustained without a DRG giving them disembowel. Current average right now is any where from 900-950 depending on procs and crits.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

No MCN does 1k dps sustained without a DRG giving them disembowel. Current average right now is any where from 900-950 depending on procs and crits.

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Not mine, so cut out the names.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/mch_pa10.jpg

That AST is out of party

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Not mine, so cut out the names.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/mch_pa10.jpg

That AST is out of party

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And the AST is doing what, exactly?

Those DPS cards from AST are no joke.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Those DPS cards from AST are no joke.

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Edit - Misread that parse. Now I see the turret it doing the extra damage. My mistake! Although, why aren't they combining pets?! However, I agree that most of what I see shows that MCH is behind too.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Not to mention that the MCH is only doing 895 damage there which isn't supporting the person's claim that they are doing 1k. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but everything I'm seeing points in the direction of what most are saying here in that they need some tweaks.

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The turret is doing 120 which is MCH's DPS. So it's really close to 1k total. Have seen extremely similar numbers on BRD in a sustained parse, no buffs besides party/food/pot.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

The turret is doing 120 which is MCH's DPS. So it's really close to 1k total. Have seen extremely similar numbers on BRD in a sustained parse, no buffs besides party/food/pot.

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Yeah, I noticed that after posting, and corrected my post to reflect my mistake. 1k still isn't very impressive to be honest though.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

And the AST is doing what, exactly?

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Just being there (as you can see he interacted with the dummy a whole 2 seconds and got picked up by ACT)
Can't stop random FC members from running by and doing whatever

It's what happens when you don't have a public PTR/beta test

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Originally Posted by Slirith

It's what happens when you don't have a public PTR/beta test

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It is within 5% of being on par with similar bards of gear. Having a Test server is a joke. People would play on there to learn the new boss fights to help in world first and or learn possible bugs to exploit for when the patch comes out. SE is wise to not go the route of a public test server. No one really actually tests on those servers.

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Originally Posted by popotaro

I used Split Shot ten times in a row and never got a proc

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10 x 2.5 = 25

quick reload cooldown is 30 seconds

I guess you messed up here then, if you didnt get a proc in 30 seconds..considering you get a free proc every 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

10 x 2.5 = 25

quick reload cooldown is 30 seconds

I guess you messed up here then, if you didnt get a proc in 30 seconds..considering you get a free proc every 30 seconds.

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He was most likely exaggerating a bit. However, I have a record of 7 in a row without a proc myself. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't seem to have a problem proccing Clean Shot, but Split Shot feels more like a 25% chance and not 50. You get a lot of droughts with that ability.

I'm going to get myself geared up more before I make any decisions. I'll be leveling my ninja while waiting on dungeon queues just in case, though.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I disagree strongfly on the RNG part.

The RNG is at present costing a ridiculous amount of our damage.

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Rng balances itself out over a extended fight. The more you attack the more consistent it'll get. It's just mch damage is low without procs and low with procs.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

Rng balances itself out over a extended fight. The more you attack the more consistent it'll get. It's just mch damage is low without procs and low with procs.

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I don't understand this logic at all.

Still, it's NOT enjoyable to miss 7 procs in a row on your bread-and-butter combination.

RNG should be less crippling for enjoyment's sake, if anything.

I don't think anybody enjoys spamming 1 action 7x over in a row multiple times in a fight.

I had 4 dry-spells between QR/R sets today in a row last dungeon... each amounting to between 4-8 missed procs in a row.

And yes, I know how to play the Job well.

It's bad design & needs revision (read: not removal).

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

I don't understand this logic at all.

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Law of Large numbers. Probability is hard to see with small sample sizes. You'd need a sample size of over 500 to get something within 5% of 50% proc chance consistently.

Meanwhile you're probably only gonna use Split Shot around 100 times in a fight, in which case you would only remember the times RNG screwed you by giving you 7 non-procs in a row. You won't notice that your proc chance is actually around 50% with a large margin of error.

EDIT: though I agree relying on RNG procs is unsatisfying when it screws you, as well as Cleaner Shot only having 20 more potency than Enhanced Split. Cleaner Shot is good because it's 100 more potency than Split shot, but you really only see how small the difference is from Slug to Clean.

Basically you remember the times where it didnt proc 7 times in a row, but you don't say anything aabout how the RNG is too high when it procs 10 times in a row..

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Basically you remember the times where it didnt proc 7 times in a row, but you don't say anything aabout how the RNG is too high when it procs 10 times in a row..

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Yep, and when you get a Split Proc you use slug Shot anyways so you wouldn't notice.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Basically you remember the times where it didnt proc 7 times in a row, but you don't say anything aabout how the RNG is too high when it procs 10 times in a row..

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Why should we say anything when it does proc? Did you forget every other class can do the same WITHOUT the RNG? And even when we do get procs in a row, the damage simply isn't there. All they can say is "yay it proced.....and we barely did the damage".

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

Why should we say anything when it does proc? Did you forget every other class can do the same WITHOUT the RNG? And even when we do get procs in a row, the damage simply isn't there. All they can say is "yay it proced.....and we barely did the damage".

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Then the problem is with the potency on Enhanced Slug/Cleaner Shot and not the RNG.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Then the problem is with the potency on Enhanced Slug/Cleaner Shot and not the RNG.

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The fact it has RNG is one of the problems. They have less DPS than most classes [hell, some say even White Mage can do more, not sure if that's an exaggeration] and NEED those procs to happen. That's the problem. If the abilities were already good and strong and the proc simply added something extra, i'm pretty sure that people wouldn't complain. Imagine if Bards had this RNG thing, imagine if Dragoons or Ninjas had it.

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

Imagine if Bards had this RNG thing, imagine if Dragoons

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You mean... Bloodletter and Fang/Wheel?

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Originally Posted by Humorless

You mean... Bloodletter and Fang/Wheel?

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What does Bloodletter have with RNG?

And Fang/wheel? You mean those 2 abilities that have the same potency and it's up to YOU to position yourself correctly? It's obvious what i meant, think a bit.

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

Why should we say anything when it does proc? Did you forget every other class can do the same WITHOUT the RNG? And even when we do get procs in a row, the damage simply isn't there. All they can say is "yay it proced.....and we barely did the damage".

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I mean its a proc based class - this isnt new to mmos.

It's supposed to feel satisfying when it procs, and it's kind of awesome when it does.
I think 50% is very generous for a proc rate considering you get 7 every minute, lol

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

What does Bloodletter have with RNG?

And Fang/wheel? You mean those 2 abilities that have the same potency and it's up to YOU to position yourself correctly? It's obvious what i meant, think a bit.

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Bloodletter procs based on if your dots crit or not. IE. RNG

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Originally Posted by Ephemiel

Imagine if Bards had this RNG thing, imagine if Dragoons or Ninjas had it.

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Just for arguments sake, classes with a good portion of how other classes can play having RNG aspects built in:

Bloodletter CD resetting due to the RNG of your dots crit'ing. 2.0 BLM numbers change wildly depending on RNG Crit and RNG Firestarter/Thundercloud Procs, WHM MP can be saved immensely by RNG free procs to cure 2 and cure 3, 2.0 PLD Bulwark…

It was common to go several rotations and never see a Firestarter at 40%. You might not think so but those free fire 3's really do change how high your numbers would go.

SE will find a way to max the class play well. Let's wait until the raid opens up and then we'll really have a good benchmark to use to gauge our classes. Comparing dummy DPS numbers doesn't really mean a whole lot and I've never felt that Extreme Primals were necessarily that great either. Just ask monks from the days when Titan was the endgame.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

Just for arguments sake, classes with a good portion of how other classes can play having RNG aspects built in:

Bloodletter CD resetting due to the RNG of your dots crit'ing. 2.0 BLM numbers change wildly depending on RNG Crit and RNG Firestarter/Thundercloud Procs, WHM MP can be saved immensely by RNG free procs to cure 2 and cure 3, 2.0 PLD Bulwark…

It was common to go several rotations and never see a Firestarter at 40%. You might not think so but those free fire 3's really do change how high your numbers would go.

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Alright, now weaken those class's damage or, in the WHM's case, heals to the point where people actually say that the healers do more damage [for WHM, idk, imagine stuff like Bloodbath healing more than WHM for the sake of this argument].

I don't mind that it has RNG necessarily, i dislike that that fact i'm forced to stay there using the same ability over and over in the hopes it decides to proc.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Not mine, so cut out the names.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/mch_pa10.jpg

That AST is out of party

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I'm guessing this parse is inflated due to heartbreak procs using Mist dummies.

Well this thread took on a life of its own, wasn't really expecting 4 pages of answers.

Just to clarify, i really do like the class, i don't mind the fact that i have to stand there spamming my Split Shot just hoping for a proc after i have used everything on Wildfire and waiting for my off-gcd/cd abilities to come online, it wouldn't be a problem if only the procs were worth it and actually felt satisfying, but as it stands, the proc's that i do get feel like a filler move that doesnt accomplish anything to use while waiting for my 30/60/90sec cooldowns to be ready.

I do like the class abilities(Most of them... Rend Mind and Dismantle sharing a 90sec cooldown makes me cringe...), and that i have to pay attention to the skills and turret placements, but for the moment, the amount of work i have to put in isnt worth it comparing it to the numbers that i parse.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Yeah, I noticed that after posting, and corrected my post to reflect my mistake. 1k still isn't very impressive to be honest though.

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Keep in mind that Wildfire isn't tracked in the main parse of ACT.

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Keep in mind that Wildfire isn't tracked in the main parse of ACT.

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Gets picked up just fine for me.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Gets picked up just fine for me.

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Not for me. It shows up fine under incomming damage on the dummy, but it's not included in my outgoing damage and dps.