I would like a numerical analysis of Bard MP regain and MCH MP regain

I honestly think Bard's MP regain is higher than MCH's from trying it out on the field.

Yes I know they stack, I was the first person to report that fact.

I want to know numbers.

Anyone have one yet? Still very interested in this question.

I'd be curious as well. I do know my machinist's TP song gives 30 TP every 3s

I thought SE had stated that the Bard's song would be the superior regen mechanic, due to them cutting our damage by 15%.

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Originally Posted by Mimiru_S

I thought SE had stated that the Bard's song would be the superior regen mechanic, due to them cutting our damage by 15%.

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We lose our turret damage when using promotion for tp/mp, which is 80 potency every couple of seconds. That's quite a lot of damage we lose as well.

doesn't the turret do about exactly that number?..

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Originally Posted by Kibbles

doesn't the turret do about exactly that number?..

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I think in most DPS parses I've seen it is about 11% with loss of turret.

Arguably the same, but for a less useful MP regen effect and so it is less worth it.

Bard trades off a slight % more of their damage in order to have a significantly more powerful MP/TP regen. Well worth it for the bard.

does this include with or with out hypercharge?

265 MP for both MCH and BRD, per tick of MP regeneration.

Turret is roughly 10-15% of a MCH's MP that they lose temporarily. BRD loses 15% damage while using Ballad but they also lose MP for Foe's, so it might actually be more painful for BRD to play Ballad/Paeon.

Brd also have battle voice which increases the regen.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Brd also have battle voice which increases the regen.

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BRD gets BV for 30s every 5m. MCH gets Hypercharge for 15s every 2m. In that sense MCH is a "better" MP/TP regen class.

Both BV and Hypercharge are terrible to use for that purpose though. Huge raid DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

BRD gets BV for 30s every 5m. MCH gets Hypercharge for 15s every 2m. In that sense MCH is a "better" MP/TP regen class.

Both BV and Hypercharge are terrible to use for that purpose though. Huge raid DPS loss.

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Ha, that came from a BLM, no wonder.

If you have to BV a Ballad because your healers went south, you have to.

BVing a few ticks of Paeon and switching out to Foe is another tactic deployed in TP intensive fights like T11. There is simply no point in playing extended Paeon and wait for MP to be full again for a full bar BV Foe. Doing that is a loss.

Just a shame that they essentially made MCH a carbon copy of BRD, just instead of a bow and songs, they get a gun and turrets. Would have like to see them give MCH their own style.

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Originally Posted by Mimiru_S

Just a shame that they essentially made MCH a carbon copy of BRD, just instead of a bow and songs, they get a gun and turrets. Would have like to see them give MCH their own style.

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TBH it is more like the idea of MCH was slapped right onto BRD.

I have played both MCH and BRD to 60 and cleared them in Ravana/Bismark EX and I have to say that MCH game play at 60 is more fluid than BRD. MCH when in turret mode had an easier time in movement because of having more oGCDs plus being able to hold 2 procs for up to 10s for movement, like how BLM uses F3 procs to move.

What SE has done is lazily slapped the idea of GB onto BRD @ 60 in the form of WM, without consideration of the base difference in MCH/BRD game play. Whilst both of them are largely similar that they have the option to be mobile outside turret mode and able to regen resources etc, a closer inspection will tell you that they are different. As a result, when slapped with WM, BRD lacks the movement management capabilities that were conferred to MCH - MCH goes like: Split shot, procs Slug Shot, uses Slug Shot and procs Clean Shot, holds clean shot and use Split Shot to proc Slug Shot. There you have 2 procs on hand which you can fire them off - Clean followed by Slug, with a chance to proc Clean again.

BRD have none of this to manage movement and BRD can only proc one thing which is called BL, and it is a DPS loss to hold on to it. BRD's turret stance skill, Empyreal Arrow is a casting spell while Gauss Round is an instant ability which gives MCH another upper edge in terms of movement.

Machinist isn't a copy of BRD. It is a job designed from ground up. WM is a copy of GB, and a badly slapped on one.

I should have been more specific, terrible for use as a planned occurance is more fitting.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

BVing a few ticks of Paeon and switching out to Foe is another tactic deployed in TP intensive fights like T11. There is simply no point in playing extended Paeon and wait for MP to be full again for a full bar BV Foe. Doing that is a loss.

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Assuming we're talking about a situation where healers don't need Ballad ...

If you are going to end a fight between the time you regain BV but before you have enough MP for a full set of Foe's, there are usually only two scenarios: that's fine and you should have played Foe's before the 5m mark and the BV gets tacked unto your final Foe's, or you don't get much out of Foe's and you overplayed Paeon (or played it late) and accidentally underplayed Foe's.

Most other, further into the fight timelines still wouldn't benefit from BV Paeon because if you still have BV at a time where you would need another set of Paeon, you've neglected Foe's. Basically if there's even one scrap of BV going towards Paeon you could have balanced out Foe's vs Paeon better.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

BRD have none of this to manage movement and BRD can only proc one thing which is called BL, and it is a DPS loss to hold on to it.

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Actually Straight Shot proc can be held for movement. When it's activated via proc it have instant cast.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

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Nah. this is entirely situational but undeniably BV'd paeon for a couple of ticks at the right time helps in overall TP management for the entire fight and could meant that you can do one less cast of Paeon at the end. I've seen several BRDs/fights from top flight teams pulling this too.

Paeon regens and maintains the DPS of 2 melees + yourself as a BRD while Paeon works for your one and only caster plus a part contribution from your SCH (and maybe... a little from WHM). Sustaining your 2 melee's DPS is more important than giving that 10% to your caster, sadly speaking. If your melees run dry and have to cut down on things like ToD etc then it is a greater raid DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

Actually Straight Shot proc can be held for movement. When it's activated via proc it have instant cast.

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SS proc can't be compared to MCH's proc holding capabilites. This is because SS is triggered by your main spam skill HS. Literally as a BRD once you noticed HS proc you need to fire it off, and the only time you hold it is when you got a proc after HS and your next 2 moves are either WB+VB or if you are under WM mode, EA/IJ

MCH have the capability to chain procs and hold them. If you get a Clean Shot proc after Slug Shot, you do not have to immediately fire off Clean Shot. Technically you should use Split Shot again and try to chain a Slug Shot proc so that you have both Slug/Clean Shot on proc.

Under such a scenario you have 2 procs to use as movement (Clean Shot followed by Slug), plus a potential 3rd proc since that Slug Shot can chain a Clean Shot proc again.

On top of this, if Reload/Quick reload is up in times of massive movement requirements then this is another MCH saviour. BRDs doesn't have this luxury. You will also notice this difference in the opening for Ravana EX - BRD will have to be very careful during the Barrage+EA => WS => HS/IJ part because that is when Ravana will start his All Seeing Wings/Left/Right stances. You don't want to get caught in the middle of a cast while he is activating that and got yourself a slow debuff. MCH does not have this concern in their opener because of Reload/Quick Reload confers them lots of mobility as they are on a chain series of proc.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Nah. this is entirely situational but undeniably BV'd paeon for a couple of ticks at the right time helps in overall TP management for the entire fight and could meant that you can do one less cast of Paeon at the end. I've seen several BRDs/fights from top flight teams pulling this too.

Paeon regens and maintains the DPS of 2 melees + yourself as a BRD while Paeon works for your one and only caster plus a part contribution from your SCH (and maybe... a little from WHM). Sustaining your 2 melee's DPS is more important than giving that 10% to your caster, sadly speaking. If your melees run dry and have to cut down on things like ToD etc then it is a greater raid DPS loss.

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Of course Paeon > Foe's, I'm not one of those guys. If a fight/phase lasts longer than 4m-ish it's gonna be Foe's > Paeon rather than Foe's > Foe's.

That said, I'm still not seeing a timeline where BV Paeon would lead to more raid DPS. Humor me and tell me a fight duration and timeline so I can understand your PoV, if you would.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Of course Paeon > Foe's, I'm not one of those guys. If a fight/phase lasts longer than 4m-ish it's gonna be Foe's > Paeon rather than Foe's > Foe's.

That said, I'm still not seeing a timeline where BV Paeon would lead to more raid DPS. Humor me and tell me a fight duration and timeline so I can understand your PoV, if you would.

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Honestly I'm not going to dig old threads on FCoB bard discussion to point to you where those discussions are, if you are keen to know then you should do some research yourself.

And I have said it is entirely situational. Not every party are the same and each team's BRD have to learn to tune to their own team's TP/MP needs to decide the flow of songs.

I have pointed out one example which is in T11. After the adds phase, BV'd Paeon for a few ticks before switching out to Foe for the entire bar and kill the boss before you need to Paeon again.

So anymore people have evidence one way or another?

I got told today I was wrong and MCH is lower.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

So anymore people have evidence one way or another?

I got told today I was wrong and MCH is lower.

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MCH restores 30 TP/MP every tick. Not sure what Bard's songs do.

According to this website Mages ballad is 30 as well.

Anyone can confirm/refute from Bard side of things?

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Mage's_Ballad

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Promotion

Same site has it. It should be the same for both (and the range on the turrets is much larger than the animation appears). I honestly don't see why they'd give one class a worse version.

I'm assuming MCH gets the benefit of Hypercharge where BRD don't get the benefit of Battle Voice. Saying that with how easily the Turret gets knocked around, BRD is still more practical in that sense.

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Originally Posted by Rayokarna

I'm assuming MCH gets the benefit of Hypercharge where BRD don't get the benefit of Battle Voice. Saying that with how easily the Turret gets knocked around, BRD is still more practical in that sense.

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Hypercharge is one of MCH's dps cooldown. It's a hit to their overall damage (which is already pretty damn low relatively) if it's not used on cooldown and instead saved for emergencies. Not the case to the same degree for battle voice.

MCH does get the benefit of being instant cast and off the GCD. It's easier for them pop it up during downtime phases like Ravana's linebacker tackles or Bismarck's breach blast.

Yeah, the instant cast promotion for MP/TP gain is such a huge benefit for MCH over BRDs. BRDs lose a noticeable DPS output through their cast times when singing -- and then the DPS loss from Ballad and Paeon -- that makes it really not a good class over MCH, especially with similar DPS parse numbers.

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Originally Posted by Wishles

Yeah, the instant cast promotion for MP/TP gain is such a huge benefit for MCH over BRDs. BRDs lose a noticeable DPS output through their cast times when singing -- and then the DPS loss from Ballad and Paeon -- that makes it really not a good class over MCH, especially with similar DPS parse numbers.

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Machinists takes a dps loss too with promotion, around the same degree as singing. More if you're holding off hypercharge to boost mp/tp in case of emergency.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Hypercharge is one of MCH's dps cooldown. It's a hit to their overall damage (which is already pretty damn low relatively) if it's not used on cooldown and instead saved for emergencies. Not the case to the same degree for battle voice.

MCH does get the benefit of being instant cast and off the GCD. It's easier for them pop it up during downtime phases like Ravana's linebacker tackles or Bismarck's breach blast.

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Yeah of course. This is just in the case of where you need to MP/TP regen. More often than not, it's always more practical for the BRD to do it since they can easily position themselves to be in range. Nothing more annoying then setting up a turret to only have it being knocked around so you have to place it again.

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Originally Posted by Wishles

Yeah, the instant cast promotion for MP/TP gain is such a huge benefit for MCH over BRDs. BRDs lose a noticeable DPS output through their cast times when singing -- and then the DPS loss from Ballad and Paeon -- that makes it really not a good class over MCH, especially with similar DPS parse numbers.

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It's around the same, losing Auto attack of the turret and the possible Hypercharge 5% boost is massive and creates a bit of a swing scenario. So it's just as important. The point is that it's still really practical for BRD to do it. Sometimes if I'm with my FC, me and the BRD delegate on what type of regen between us if the party needs it.

So, speaking of numbers... Just wondering what kind of numbers people have been seeing from Ricochet? I hit a 5k today-- 1200 crit and 4k crit on a single target.

And has anyone figured out if skill speed affects the turret like spell speed does with SMN pets?

I have a couple of questions about Hypercharge, does it put the debuff each time it atacks? if so, can I promote an hypercharged turret?
I was thinking on use Hypercharge, let my torrent apply the debuff the enemy, then promote it and give a huge TP regen for 10 sec and then depromote it so it can apply the debuff again

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Originally Posted by Keylus

I have a couple of questions about Hypercharge, does it put the debuff each time it atacks? if so, can I promote an hypercharged turret?
I was thinking on use Hypercharge, let my torrent apply the debuff the enemy, then promote it and give a huge TP regen for 10 sec and then depromote it so it can apply the debuff again

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You can. You're still losing out on the doubled potency from turret damage though.