The Death Of CC

Yo how come I can't sleep anything anymore? I really dislike that a huge part of my utility just straight disappeared after a while.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Yo how come I can't sleep anything anymore? I really dislike that a huge part of my utility just straight disappeared after a while.

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific. On what mobs did you attempt this on?

If you have access to sleep you have access to either a much better CC ability (holy) or you are starving yourself of DPS.

Or both.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

If you have access to sleep you have access to either a much better CC ability (holy) or you are starving yourself of DPS.

Or both.

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He's a BLM, not a WHM. What he was saying was that he has lost his utility to stop damage from a pack of mobs for 30 seconds, and that in itself is a form of mitigation if the tank is either undergeared, or if the healer is undergeared and can't keep heals up as well.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

He's a BLM, not a WHM. What he was saying was that he has lost his utility to stop damage from a pack of mobs for 30 seconds, and that in itself is a form of mitigation if the tank is either undergeared, or if the healer is undergeared and can't keep heals up as well.

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It also stops them from AoEing, which can stop mitigation by killing mobs. Straight up if you were sleeping enemies as a BLM post-50 you are playing wrong.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

It also stops them from AoEing, which can stop mitigation by killing mobs. Straight up if you were sleeping enemies as a BLM post-50 you are playing wrong.

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That's the point. What the OP means is that sleep might as well not exist. Trash in dungeons is so brain dead easy that CC is straight up worthless. What used to take some actual coordination and strategy turned into an AoE fest every pull. You can take the same exact strategy and apply it to trash in basically any instance in the game. It was designed this way unfortunately. Most everything that would rip you apart has a telegraph that can be easily avoided. When was the last time a regular mob did something to make it worthy of being slept?

What is the actual utility of sleep as CC though even if you needed CC? You can't attack enemies that are slept, sleep aggros them. Everything sleep does stun does better.

Sleep would be useful as a way to avoid enemies but thanks to whiners who can't handle more than 3 enemies at once they have countless gates in dungeons that force you to kill everything. It's a great CC ability to avoid enemies, and was used to that effect in wanderer's palace runs back in 2.0. It's a CC ability that is best used to avoid fighting enemies but people cried foul that people dare try to skip mobs, so enjoy not using sleep ever again.

Wow.

I remember how sleep used to be awesome in dungeons when we were first tackling arr dungeons and not v geared. Pull a pack of 3, sleep, focus fire 1 down then move onto the nrxt. Its not actually slower than aoe-Ing them if you are barely geared for the content...

This whole aoe thing only became 'popular' because tanks and healers became overgeared and can pull like 6 to 9 mobs at once, thereby making aoe strictly more efficient, but only if the tanks and healers can handle it.

The point of sleep is that it's a defensive measure. The reason why it's useless is because the current playstyle is all about all offense, all the time. Granted, this is mostly because it's easy enough to outgear most encounters in the game that there's no point in playing defense... and the fights where one DOES need to be careful, CC doesn't work.

That all said, in circumstances where they're useful, CC works great. Mark targets, sleep the group, take them out one by one... hell, from what I can tell slept mobs don't receive enmity from folks being cured but DO receive enmity from flash or DoTs which don't wake them (any that don't inflict base damage, or any already on the monster when it is slept), so it can help keep hate off the healer as well. However, outside of low level parties where folks don't have all their AoE tools and are better off killing single target anyway, it's just never necessary.

Oh, small side note: CCs are pretty useful and hilarious in PVP. So there's that.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

Wow.

I remember how sleep used to be awesome in dungeons when we were first tackling arr dungeons and not v geared. Pull a pack of 3, sleep, focus fire 1 down then move onto the nrxt. Its not actually slower than aoe-Ing them if you are barely geared for the content...

This whole aoe thing only became 'popular' because tanks and healers became overgeared and can pull like 6 to 9 mobs at once, thereby making aoe strictly more efficient, but only if the tanks and healers can handle it.

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That never happened and if it did you weren't playing with good BLMs. They were slept so you could run to the boss door and lock them out. They have slowly changed the design of dungeons to shoehorn people into fighting 3-4 mobs at a time without skipping a single one, rendering sleep pointless. If you have to kill what's ahead of you the most effective way is to just do it, and half of the jobs do it faster hitting multiple targets at a time. Stun allows you to do that, sleep doesn't, and the most useful stun in the game was an AoE spell that was absurdly overpowered in 2.0. No one who knows anything about BLMs in 2.0 would argue fire 1 on a single target at a time isn't slower than using AoE.

For everyone relying on the age of the content to try and claim that mob pulls in 2.0 were more careful and involved less mobs I'd invite you to look at a WPSR from 2.0 because you're remembering wrong and it was the complete opposite. It simply hasn't been possible to pull that many for over a year now.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

hell, from what I can tell slept mobs don't receive enmity from folks being cured but DO receive enmity from flash or DoTs which don't wake them (any that don't inflict base damage, or any already on the monster when it is slept), so it can help keep hate off the healer as well

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This is also completely wrong. They do continue generating threat which is awesome when you get whm or blms who sleep when running with a war, before the WAR can even overpower the mobs. Complete ignorance of what other players are dealing with.

The sleep and lock mobs outsidr of doors thing only started happening when people were speed running to farm philosophy tomes...

But OK that's beside the point I guess

Yeah before that they were straight up sacing inside the boss door.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO7CBVvAi3Y

There has never been a point in level 50 dungeons where people were sleeping and single targeting mobs unless they didn't know what they were doing.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

This is also completely wrong. They do continue generating threat which is awesome when you get whm or blms who sleep when running with a war, before the WAR can even overpower the mobs. Complete ignorance of what other players are dealing with.

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If you mean how the person sleeping the mobs gets hate on monsters if they do so before the tank does overpower/flash, that's because inflicting sleep itself generates a small bit of enmity, enough that they're top of the list if nobody else does anything to it. That said, in my experience sleeping mobs after a single flash/overpower by a newbie tank actually helped him keep hate against curebombs. Whether I'm right, or the reduced damage and thus reduced healing needed was the sole factor, my experience has been that it can help in cases where the tank may have trouble keeping hate off the healer.

Sleep never was of any use in 2.0 (I don't know for 1.0) so they could down right remove it from the game it wouldn't even be noticed by more than a few anyway. As long as a real support class doesn't exist any and all form of CC will pretty much be useless as the only useful things are aggro generating skills and skills that lower said aggro for now.

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Originally Posted by Wilhem

Sleep never was of any use in 2.0 (I don't know for 1.0) so they could down right remove it from the game it wouldn't even be noticed by more than a few anyway. As long as a real support class doesn't exist any and all form of CC will pretty much be useless as the only useful things are aggro generating skills and skills that lower said aggro for now.

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kinda nitpicking, but for wp speedruns sleep was insanely fantastic.

At this point it can still be kinda useful for open world stuff, but even then not very (usually only if you mess up).

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

kinda nitpicking, but for wp speedruns sleep was insanely fantastic.

At this point it can still be kinda useful for open world stuff, but even then not very (usually only if you mess up).

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Right for WP.
Also, in the open world seems sleep works on most mobs, but in dungeons...nothing sleeps. Mobs are awake forever until killed.

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Originally Posted by Wilhem

Sleep never was of any use in 2.0 (I don't know for 1.0) so they could down right remove it from the game it wouldn't even be noticed by more than a few anyway. As long as a real support class doesn't exist any and all form of CC will pretty much be useless as the only useful things are aggro generating skills and skills that lower said aggro for now.

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Do you know if you happen to play with some players on JP data center, the common strategy if there is a THM/CJR in low level dungeon they would sleep the mobs? Removing it from the game would be noticed by more than a few of what you claim here..
But it's so true.. In high level content, skill like sleep or lancer's feint are so damn useless.. I'd just wish that the dev would allow players to sleep mobs again in high content, but then again there are more things that get broken if they would allow it..

It's nice having options when a tank, or tank and healer, die in a dungeon. Yeah yeah that should never ever happen but sometimes it does, of course, and when it does it's often the case that the remaining mobs aren't going to be killable before they take you out too. So being able to sleep them or place a longer-term bind can salvage the situation when they're cc'able like that without having to start at the beginning if the other DPS doesn't do something stupid and break sleep/bind on them all. Sure the whole party can start at the beginning with no weakness and return to where we left off, but in situations where things go wrong outside my control I like being able to do something about it vs. just wait my turn to die.

If a mob is throwing out a lot of damage putting an AOE sleep on them can make it a bit easier on the healer to catch up with healing if they need it, like if they're a newer healer or the tank over pulled. The sleep might not last long but it can help.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Do you know if you happen to play with some players on JP data center, the common strategy if there is a THM/CJR in low level dungeon they would sleep the mobs? Removing it from the game would be noticed by more than a few of what you claim here..
But it's so true.. In high level content, skill like sleep or lancer's feint are so damn useless.. I'd just wish that the dev would allow players to sleep mobs again in high content, but then again there are more things that get broken if they would allow it..

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Yea and they play badly in that respect. A whm sleeping everything just to sit there and do nothing with the amount of downtime they gave themselves are the worst and I make sure to overpower until they learn.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yea and they play badly in that respect. A whm sleeping everything just to sit there and do nothing with the amount of downtime they gave themselves are the worst and I make sure to overpower until they learn.

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A WHM that sleeps gives themselves a massive window in which to DPS. I like to sleep in lower level dungeons with single target DPS, then I can almost exclusively DPS because the damage taken by the tank from a single mob is trivial. Of course, there are bad WAR's that like to break my sleep despite the fact that they don't need to generate any more threat on slept mobs, so I'll just sit back and heal only instead of DPS, since they'll never learn...

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

A WHM that sleeps gives themselves a massive window in which to DPS. I like to sleep in lower level dungeons with single target DPS, then I can almost exclusively DPS because the damage taken by the tank from a single mob is trivial. Of course, there are bad WAR's that like to break my sleep despite the fact that they don't need to generate any more threat on slept mobs, so I'll just sit back and heal only instead of DPS, since they'll never learn...

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Your most effective DPS on trash from 45 onwards is holy, which is also your most effective CC. I don't think someone who is clearly playing badly has anything to teach. You're all shooting yourself in the foot by sticking to the simply wrong claim that slept trash no longer gain hate.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

A WHM that sleeps gives themselves a massive window in which to DPS. I like to sleep in lower level dungeons with single target DPS, then I can almost exclusively DPS because the damage taken by the tank from a single mob is trivial. Of course, there are bad WAR's that like to break my sleep despite the fact that they don't need to generate any more threat on slept mobs, so I'll just sit back and heal only instead of DPS, since they'll never learn...

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Slept mobs can generate enmity if players happen to apply DoT before the players cast sleep, however the tank can opt using flash instead of waking them out simply in being ignorant, full of themself, calling everybody to be inferior in not looking what's the current party need the most and blend in with society..

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Your most effective DPS on trash from 45 onwards is holy, which is also your most effective CC. I don't think someone who is clearly playing badly has anything to teach. You're all shooting yourself in the foot by sticking to the simply wrong claim that slept trash no longer gain hate.

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Check my post, I stated that I'd do that in lower level dungeons. There are only two leveling dungeons pre-50 that I can use Holy in, and I do so with pleasure. If I'm using Repose, there's probably a reason. Either I'm trying to reduce the amount of damage the tank is taking to maximize DPS, reducing the overall time spent in the run (this is to your benefit, if Overpower is so empowering for you to trivialize that effort, then by all means have a blast, just don't expect me to try any harder for you), or the tank is struggling with healing enmity. A slept mob does not incur enmity from healing. This is a fact. When I'm peeling mobs from the tank because they haven't the slightest idea how Flash or Overpower works, and they struggle to get that mob back, all while the main target starts ping ponging between the DPS, you can bet I'm going to do my best to calm the situation down, and a well placed Repose or two can do just that.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Slept mobs can generate enmity if players happen to apply DoT before the players cast sleep, however the tank can opt using flash instead of waking them out simply in being ignorant, full of themself, calling everybody to be inferior in not looking what's the current party need the most and blend in with society..

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This is true, what I meant is that my healing will not incur any enmity on the mob while it's slept. I tend to pre-cast Repose to land on my first target just as all the mobs are grouped together, followed by Swiftcast > Repose on the next, so DPS usually aren't building enmity under my sleeps.

Used to be able to Freeze/root the mobs you couldn't sleep, can't even do that anymore. Goodbye old MMO traditions.

I shoulda paid attention to my own topic.

First off, I'm actually a white mage, second, I know the importance of short CC, and third, it's been kind of a revelation that basically the whole dang population thinks that grouping things up and AoEing them down is the only way to play. I mentioned being annoyed at everything being unsleepable a couple times in pugs and people had a similar "lol y" reaction, which was understandable when people were running things over and over and over and over and over for their relic quests, but seems oddly dismissive considering how long CC has a proud tradition rooted in MMOs.

I suppose that's the thing, though; it's a defensive measure. At it's core, all CC is used to stop enemies from either hurting you more than you can handle, or stopping them from firing off abilities that would make the fight more difficult. Short CCs, our stun/silence/pacification, are excellent interrupters and can be used to great effect to get a lot of breathing room. What I object to is the devaluation(by complete and total removal) of long CC in dungeons. While I have a videogame personal stake in this because a whole skill slot is taken up by something that doesn't get a lot of use anymore, I also dislike that it's another push towards grabbing everything and AoEing it, even after several AoEs got hella nerfed(BTW: Holy is no longer our best offensive skill).

There's a finesse and strategy missing when you can't hard lock a mob, because since the first cast it's learned decision made in and of itself. "What thing should I sleep," or "What things should we leave slept" are very important questions when dealing with long mezzes, because some enemies are more advantageous to be kept out than others. The ones that do the most damage, the ones that heal, the ones that can debuff you... you're gonna want those guys gone first, and figuring out which one to sleep and which one to attack first is a 2 step decision that requires knowledge of what things do. The finesse, of course, is in making sure to not hit things that are slept that you want kept slept, which sure sounds easy but is harder than you might remember; cause some things still need to be AoEd even if one thing is asleep. Pulling stuff away so that people can use their full power, while still keeping the thing that's slept angry at you, is a tank skill that requires some practice. That isn't to say tanks don't learn positioning and DPS don't learn restraint already, but dealing with CC is a skillset on its own that makes the game feel more empty when its gone.

Overall I just miss it. I do play in a non-standard group(every dungeon done with 2 tanks, 1 dps) so I'm sure I feel the effect more than most others. We have to focus fire because there's only one of us who does DPS style... uh... DPS. We haven't had problems in the dungeons where you can't sleep, but it's something I miss every time I see that full resist fire off, and man is it fun in the overworld. I'd love to see it come back in dungeons again, although I know this playerbase probably won't care unless it lets them AoE sleep rooms again to skip pulls.

unless you're like level 27 and your tank cant seem to do basic pulls (or you got some silly DPS proximity pullling random mobs) you should not even be thinking of using Sleep. Waste of MP.

It may be useful in dungeons where you are missing a tank/healer, or you're doing a challenge run (4DPS, no heals, no tanks, ect ect) but generally speaking any strategy where you're sleeping mobs is easily outdone by doing pretty much anything else.

For what it's worth, as someone who leveled as BLM, Sleep was pretty darn useful in solo content, especially as a squishy class.

I always felt sleep was a solo survival tool rather than a group utility spell.

Accidentally aggroing mobs while leveling, specially early on before you get gear worth a damn, Sleep can save your life.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

it's been kind of a revelation that basically the whole dang population thinks that grouping things up and AoEing them down is the only way to play.

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Its kinda funny cos the new dungeon mobs have way too much HP to bother trying to AoE down unless your whole party is i70+. Takes too bloody long, TP classes just run dry before killing anything.
Tis fine for Infinite Resource BLMs and SMNs though ....

Soon everything will be immune to everything.
Also yes sleep can save ur life, playing for days on end without sleeping can probably make u really sick. Jk ik what u mean xp