Lustrate

Ok this is not a whine thread even if i am really sad about the change , the thing is after some testing it turned out that lustrate is unaffected by Defiance Conva Fey Illumination etc. you will heal 2.2k regardless of those buffs , so why the potency if it remains unaffected by those healing buffs, i really hope this is a bug and it will be fixed in a hotfix otherwise its a huge nerf to SCH and lustrate , whm cure 2 got a 650 potency you can chain a couple if needed and you can divine seal them, astro 2nd heal is 620 potency , while lustrate 600 and you can use only 3 per minute.

I think if lustrate remains unnafected by those buffs scholars will die out.

Have you tried using them on targets that have been hit with an Infirmity debuff? If the heal isn't affected by +X% healing buffs, I wonder if it'll be affected by -X% debuffs. Because if that's the case then lustrate just got a buff for non-tank targets (as people have been discussing already) without really changing its use.

If that's not the case....then >.>

Indomitability is also unaffected by % healling buffs like Illumination on defiance , i tested it , it heals for 1.5k regardless of buffs, except infirmity which will make it heal less, naah this is a straight up nerf to scholars.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Indomitability is also unaffected by % healling buffs like Illumination on defiance , i tested it , it heals for 1.5k regardless of buffs, except infirmity which will make it heal less, naah this is a straight up nerf to scholars.

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Maybe we should move this to be a bug then. If it's affected by debuffs it *should* be getting affected by buffs as well.

Can you Crit with Lustrate?

In hindsight, this amazingly... doesn't surprise given what we know about another ability that has potency - Shroud of Saints. Shroud of Saints had a potency value to it but the recovered amount never changed despite the gear score / buffs.

However, in contrast Second Wind - also an ability-style heal - is affected by specific factors.

Lustrate and Indomitably could be recovery abilities that only scale with specific factors such as, well, level.

Whether this is a bug or intended effect though, we'll probably need a dev response for this.

For the sake of science, it might good to see if Lustrate is affected by other factors:
-MND (take off all your accessories and see if the value changes)
-Target HP (just splatter Lustrates on random people you see)
-Level (I guess do a before and after)

I'd offer to help test but I'm still at work right now.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Indomitability is also unaffected by % healling buffs like Illumination on defiance , i tested it , it heals for 1.5k regardless of buffs, except infirmity which will make it heal less, naah this is a straight up nerf to scholars.

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Did you test with Cleric stance on? If it's not affected either, it's paradise for SCH!!

ofc i did , clerics and infirmity affect lustrate and indomitability negativley while +% healing buffs will not affect them.

1977 no buffs. 1995 with Fey Illumination. 996 with Cleric Stance

SE WHYYYYYYYYYYYY

EDIT: Fey Illumination says "Spell-Based" healing but Lustrate is listed as an "Ability" whereas Physick is listed as a "Spell." WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

As much as it pains me to say it sch will be an outcast class not wanted or desired in any group , why would it be since atrologian can do the job better while whm will remain the main aoe healer.

This isn't a change that sounds good to me. Is it unaffected by Defiance, considering it's not a spell? That would be pretty unfortunate for SCH/WAR pairings. If it was previously an ability unaffected by buffs and debuffs alike, it should transition in it's current iteration to being affected by both, otherwise SCH is indeed getting a direct downgrade.

Edit: I see OP posted that Defiance is unaffected, Convalescence surprises me as it states healing is affected by both spells and actions.

Defiance, Convalescence, and Fey Illumination all state "Healing Magic". If this indeed is the case and doesn't effect abilities, other abilities like Essential Dignity, Asylum, and Tetragrammaton will also be affected.

Anyone wanna test if Essential Dignity does the same? (Or if Asylum is if someone has a WHM high enough)

i wouldnt be so concerned if sch and whm were the only healers now but now with 3 healers to choose from sch will be so underwhelming groups will have no reason to bring one at all, even astro basic 2nd tier heal is 620 potency and chainable they have an instant heal of their own too and many usefull buffs that adds a lot to their utility , so WHY in the world would you even bring a sch anymore in a raid..

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Defiance, Convalescence, and Fey Illumination all state "Healing Magic". If this indeed is the case and doesn't effect abilities, other abilities like Essential Dignity, Asylum, and Tetragrammaton will also be affected.

Anyone wanna test if Essential Dignity does the same? (Or if Asylum is if someone has a WHM high enough)

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I wouldn't expect Asylum to be affected by anything, since it's a field AoE. You won't target anyone with it, rather they'll gain an effect like Succor when inside that will grant them a HoT. I'm not sure of Essential Dignity's specifics, but Tetragrammaton is percent based rather than potency based, and won't be affected regardless.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

I wouldn't expect Asylum to be affected by anything, since it's a field AoE. You won't target anyone with it, rather they'll gain an effect like Succor when inside that will grant them a HoT. I'm not sure of Essential Dignity's specifics, but Tetragrammaton is percent based rather than potency based, and won't be affected regardless.

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Asylum still has a potency value so it should be affected in the same ways Lustrate, Indomitably, and Tetragrammaton is.

Also, Tetragrammaton is a 700 Potency heal on a 60 second cooldown. Essential Dignity is AST's version of an instant heal - potency 400 at a 60 second cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Asylum still has a potency value so it should be affected in the same ways Lustrate, Indomitably, and Tetragrammaton is.

Also, Tetragrammaton is a 700 Potency heal on a 60 second cooldown. Essential Dignity is AST's version of an instant heal - potency 400 at a 60 second cooldown.

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Got it, thanks for the Tetra info. It probably will perform the same then. I still don't believe Asylum will be affected, as it's potency should snapshot based on your stats when you put it down.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

Got it, thanks for the Tetra info. It probably will perform the same then. I still don't believe Asylum will be affected, as it's potency should snapshot based on your stats when you put it down.

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You're welcome.

The snapshot of the potency of the Asylum should be similar to Regen, but whether effects on the target who receives the effect take into account their buffs or debuffs is yet to be answered.

For example, say I put down Shadowflare - potency of Shadowflare would be based on a snapshot of my buffs and stats. For easy math, let's say it does 200 damage/tick. If two identical monsters are pulled into Shadowflare, but one has Trick Attack applied to them, would the monster with Trick Attack actually take 220 damage instead? I don't think there's been a test in that respect, so it's hard to say how exactly the game actually calculates the different factors. I do imagine that Asylum's HoT effect is similar to Shadowflare / Flaming Arrow DoT effect though.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

You're welcome.

The snapshot of the potency of the Asylum should be similar to Regen, but whether effects on the target who receives the effect take into account their buffs or debuffs is yet to be answered.

For example, say I put down Shadowflare - potency of Shadowflare would be based on a snapshot of my buffs and stats. For easy math, let's say it does 200 damage/tick. If two identical monsters are pulled into Shadowflare, but one has Trick Attack applied to them, would the monster with Trick Attack actually take 220 damage instead? I don't think there's been a test in that respect, so it's hard to say how exactly the game actually calculates the different factors. I do imagine that Asylum's HoT effect is similar to Shadowflare / Flaming Arrow DoT effect though.

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Aye, I suppose that's the challenge of speculating about new abilities while comparing them to pre-existing abilities. We just don't know (and level 52 WHM that could answer our query are probably still logged on and playing, rather than perusing the forum). I'm hesitant however to say that SCH is weak in light of this change without experiencing it for myself, especially in conjunction with all of the other abilities the expansion has to offer. Lustrate has certainly been knocked down a peg, but I can't see that it will make clearing most 2.X content substantially harder, and it's nigh impossible to say how it stacks up at level 60 without knowing the intricacies of classes and the effect of gear.

Bonus: you can still cast lustrate while silenced!

Second bonus: Lustrate CAN be crit now, too. Had one crit for 3400ish running around the new areas.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

i wouldnt be so concerned if sch and whm were the only healers now but now with 3 healers to choose from sch will be so underwhelming groups will have no reason to bring one at all, even astro basic 2nd tier heal is 620 potency and chainable they have an instant heal of their own too and many usefull buffs that adds a lot to their utility , so WHY in the world would you even bring a sch anymore in a raid..

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You're overreacting. Even if this wasn't a bug and if it were a flat 600 potency heal based on your current level/MD/MND's arbitrary value(s), it would still be good. The only thing that really stings is Defiance not being affected. In other cases, you're not even far off the old 25% threshold, especially when you crit-adjust it. (Lustrate can crit now). I am sure they will address this one way or another.

SCH has zero worries over having a raiding spot.

Hopefully it is a bug. It would be really dismaying when Fey Illumination and Dissipation don't synergize with a thrid of my healing spells. By all means they should work fine with Lustrate and Indomitability.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

You're overreacting. Even if this wasn't a bug and if it were a flat 600 potency heal based on your current level/MD/MND's arbitrary value(s), it would still be good. The only thing that really stings is Defiance not being affected. In other cases, you're not even far off the old 25% threshold, especially when you crit-adjust it. (Lustrate can crit now). I am sure they will address this one way or another.

SCH has zero worries over having a raiding spot.

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Don't take the bait.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

ofc i did , clerics and infirmity affect lustrate and indomitability negativley [...]

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I took the liberty of testing this by the way, and you are wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/kzn8zBS.jpg


Background info: Noticed one of the new main story quest monsters give you an Infirmity debuff. As I realized this, I was exposing myself to it and snapping an Embrace and a Lustrate in the same picture. Embrace is only about half as potent as it should be in the picture, whilst Lustrate is a normal, non-crit Lustrate at level 52 and i130.

Verdict: Lustrate doesn't seem to be affected by buffs or debuffs at the moment. Cleric Stance does affect it as it should, but I think the potency is snapshotted from some arbitrary value (Level? MD? MND?) and applied without any other considerations except Cleric Stance.

So what all of this seems to be telling me is we still have a percentage heal that is now effected by whether or not we are in Cleric Stance, NERF!

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Originally Posted by Eloah

So what all of this seems to be telling me is we still have a percentage heal that is now effected by whether or not we are in Cleric Stance, NERF!

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No, what Tranquil / Rin is saying is that for some inexplicable reason, we have an ability-based heal that is based off some parameter (most likely MND because of the MND and INT swap of Cleric Stance) that seems to be arbitrarily unaffected by both positive and negative healing effects.

The next best test for this is for some SCH to get to 58 and see what their Emergency Tactic Adlos cure for in Cleric Stance and compare to what their Lustrates cure for in the exact same gear. This will tell us if Lustrate is affected by the 20% healing magic reduction of Cleric Stance as well (just for science though, you should never be using Lustrate in Cleric Stance now...)

@Tranquil / Rin

Do you happen to recall how exactly that particular Infirmity debuff was worded? Because if it said "Reduces the potency of healing magic" and not "healing effects" it would explain why Lustrate works though it.

Lustrate + Deployment Tactics = FCK YOU CURE III

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

Lustrate + Deployment Tactics = FCK YOU CURE III

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Shouldn't it be: "Adlo + Deploy" ?

I think it's better to look at Lustrate as a physical healing skill rather than a magical one. Still retains the benefits of being buffable/critable while ignoring silence.

I'm... pretty sure this is a bug guys. It looks like it's acting like it used to, except that when you switch around your mind/int and reduce its potency it heals for less. Which makes sense cause now it's got potency and works like a normal spell, except it's not tagged correctly.

Honestly, by the way the skills are worded, it is working as intended right now. Both Lustrate and Indomitability are marked as Abilities, not as Spells like Adlo. None of the healing amplifier actually state they work with Abilities. Their descriptions read Healing Spells/Magic/Actions. None of them state that they should be working with Abilities. Yes, it is still an action and yes, game logic wise it is magic, but both don't apply with these mechanics. I haven't run the numbers, but it would be interesting to know if both skills are actually affected by Maim and Mend. Following the above logic, they are not.

Infirmary and the likes work the same: They reduce Healing Spells/Magic/Actions, so it isn't affected by it. I suppose that should be making up for it?

So... yes. Lustrating Warriors right now went from huge numbers to really dissapointing.

We just went from having an overpowered % instaheal to a somewhat less overpowered static instaheal. I have no problem with this. We still have gotten buffs to direct healing otherwise, we just don't get to sit in Cleric Stance for as long (which is fair; don't lie to yourself and say it is unfair)

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Originally Posted by spelley

We just went from having an overpowered % instaheal to a somewhat less overpowered static instaheal. I have no problem with this. We still have gotten buffs to direct healing otherwise, we just don't get to sit in Cleric Stance for as long (which is fair; don't lie to yourself and say it is unfair)

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I don't perceive any difference in my CS uptime tbh. Again, this change only hurts SCHs who don't know how to manage CS without saving their stacks for Lustrate; if you were already using most of your stacks for Energy Drain and Bane while dropping CS to strategically heal/shield up, you're going to be fine.

well, the fact that it doesn't benefit of defiance is bad - it indirectly nerfs warriortanks i lil bit. there cases you have to counter a healreducing debuff are way less than having a warriortank + scholar heal.

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Originally Posted by CycLee

well, the fact that it doesn't benefit of defiance is bad - it indirectly nerfs warriortanks i lil bit. there cases you have to counter a healreducing debuff are way less than having a warriortank + scholar heal.

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However, it's not as if Lustrate is our only option for WAR healing or even one of the primary options.

I've always considered Lustrate either a panic button or an "I or someone else screwed up, and I need to get caught up on healing NOW" button. It doesn't really affect the way I heal normally.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I've always considered Lustrate either a panic button or an "I or someone else screwed up, and I need to get caught up on healing NOW" button. It doesn't really affect the way I heal normally.

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Agreed, I was already tight about Lustrate "panic" use before the change mainly for the sake of managing Aetherflow. Use a stack (or two if it's that urgent to meet an HP-required mechanic NOW), get out of stance if-needed, Physick remaining HP. Only use to buy enough time to keep em alive instead of blowing stacks when they obviously don't need to handle another draining mechanic anytime soon, when all you want is their life bar to look pretty at the moment.

I also never thought twice on using it on DPS if they were the only ones to mess up a mechanic. If it keeps them alive, it's worth it because DPS checks can be strict. The only part that would change is stance dancing, even then that wasn't common because of my strict use.

I like that Lustrate is now a 600 potency heal that crits and is not on a GCD. Now it scales with your power, and that easily means you need less charges to heal players with smaller HP pools.

My lustrate has been getting crits now instead of just the flat% and it's kind of amazing.

I was bummed out about the changes first but when I saw a 3479 crit on lustrate, I was totally okay with it. non-crit is still doing 2.5k+ on DK, PLD - haven't tested on war since I haven't been blessed with their presence in dungeons yet. It's still a reliable oh crap button and the new AOE Heal is pretty sweet.

Scholars whining about Lustrate changes should just reroll another job, really.

Sorry for being blunt.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

However, it's not as if Lustrate is our only option for WAR healing or even one of the primary options.

I've always considered Lustrate either a panic button or an "I or someone else screwed up, and I need to get caught up on healing NOW" button. It doesn't really affect the way I heal normally.

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While I understand where you're coming from, the Defiance issue is something S-E should address before Savage Alex is released as it may make WARs undesirable in progression raiding where clutch heals could make or break the attempt in progression and learning.

Though on the opposite side of the coin, at least this is kinda offsetted by the fact you can get guaranteed heal Crits from flank / rear while Raw Intuition is up >>;

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Scholars whining about Lustrate changes should just reroll another job, really.

Sorry for being blunt.

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I absolutely agree with you. Nothing has me more frustrated and on edge when I see scholars use Lustrate as a crutch before the expansion and even now still.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

While I understand where you're coming from, the Defiance issue is something S-E should address before Savage Alex is released as it may make WARs undesirable in progression raiding where clutch heals could make or break the attempt in progression and learning.

Though on the opposite side of the coin, at least this is kinda offsetted by the fact you can get guaranteed heal Crits from flank / rear while Raw Intuition is up >>;

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If your warrior is getting hit in the side/back often to begin with, then he was never really doing a good job. That's a serious issue even before the expansion since Overpower needs everything you want hit to be in front of you.