A summoners return.

So I am back and eagerly waiting for Friday. I have to comment on the work SE, well done. Ishgard is going to burn with celebratory bonfires.

The Summoners new mechanic, Trancing (and I am pulling from NA FF9), is a good idea. Hopefully, SE, your vision pans out. Lore wise, it allows the summoner to channel the more powerful primals and do a flashy flashy signature nuke attack. I hope you drop the Dreadwrym off it and just call it Trancing. Feels like a nice compromise for those wanting to be more summonery, keep branching it out.

Nice change on tri-disaster :cool:. I am interested in seeing what you did to Ifrits shield and crush skills, miasma I/II and bane.

Now some issues. Please do not do the pet glamour. Maybe for carbuncle but not on any other pets. I think some primals should be used though Trancing, Shiva for example, and some should be egi's like Leviathan. Now, we have our three basic pets, mdps/rdps/tank, so how about making future additions more niche, leviathan boosts healer skills by X%, Ramuh boosts SS, anything to compensate for the dps loss from us directly and still be a good alternative. I know you guys can be creative, get to it.

Now excuse me, I have to go plan how I am going to deal with your art dept. over the egi looks.

See everyone in Ishgard.

First, welcome back to the game :D

For the things you said, I was okay until you talked about the egis.
Okay, we got that a lot of SMNs are crying over egis, because no Ramuh-egi or Shiva-egi.
Lorewise, it is possible to summon them is some way, I agree on that.

BUT, why would you want to have them ?
We already have a Tank (Titan), a caster (Garuda) and a melee (Ifrit).
You talked about having a Ramuh-egi who will increase heals and other ideas on new egis use.
I'll just ask 1 question; What is the SMN in FFXIV ?

As far as I know, the SMN is a DPS. What is the role of a DPS ? Dealing damages.
Why would I want a pet that doesn't increase my DPS ?
I'm not a Support DPS like the BRD or the MCH, I'm just here to deal damages, I don't care about healers or tanks, they have enough skills to manage themselves.
If there is a problem, the BRD or the MCH will help, because they are designed for that.

that's fair Aiiro. What I was conveying was that, (and we actually only have two types, dps/tank with heals being on sch) let's be a bit more creative with future pets. There is nothing wrong with having a support pet. The KEY point is that whatever a new pet brings to the table, it matches the dps and utility we lose by not using Ifrit/Garuda. Summoner has two methods of summoning now in FF14, Trancing and Egi's. We currently have two dps pets and a tanker. Going forward, SE can give us more dps though Trancing while opening up Egi's to more support roles

1. Garuda extends duration of dots, how about a pet that increases their potency to match the dps we would get from 5 more ticks of damage.
2. How about a pet that boosts group dps or skill/spell speed?
3. A pet that has unique utility like: examples taken from FF6.
Cait Sith, it caused confusion, in FF14 that could translate to an attack dealing a potion of the damage back to the attacks owner, or increase miss chance, several ways it could be worked.
Kirin, casts regen on party, maybe not hp regen but how about mp/tp, and small value so not to push out bards, and with short range.
Phantom, casts invisible or maybe change to screen, grants increased chance to dodging an attack.

There are many options for us. I do not want to be locked into what we have and use a glamour for vanity sake.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

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The moment you end up giving supportive pets to summoners, it's going to create that pigeoning holing to which one is the most effective in a raid environment (much like what we're currently seeing). We have three egis but you only ever use one. Having six egis but only using one isn't any better.

Its sound on text, but an absolute nightmare to implement in a balance in actual practice, especially when you already have scholar's selene for that.

Think about it, if we have a Pet, Ramuh-Egi for example that regen MP and TP while doing a good amount of damages.
Why would you want a BRD or a MCH in your party ? They will become useless since the SMN will have more DPS and the same utility, that's not balanced at all.
If we get a HP regen pet, we are gonna be SCH wannabe, I don't want that and that doesn't make sense, There is no primals that heal something.

For the Egi that will buff allies, it would be the best pet and every SMN will use it and all the other egis will be left out.

You have to think about other jobs and synergy within a party, that's what a MMO is.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The moment you end up giving supportive pets to summoners, it's going to create that pigeoning holing to which one is the most effective in a raid environment (much like what we're currently seeing). We have three egis but you only ever use one. Having six egis but only using one isn't any better.

Its sound on text, but an absolute nightmare to implement in a balance in actual practice, especially when you already have scholar's selene for that.

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i was just throwing out SS on Ramuh as an example. I said whatever a pet brings, it should 1. match in value what we lose from not having out a dps pet 2. Not push another player's role to extinction and 3. Be equal to using any other pet.

As I said above, a pet that increases the potency of our dots to equal the dmg gained from 5 more ticks given by Garuda, useful in those fights where mobs just don't live for those extra 15 seconds. Or a pet that boosts the groups dps, or boosts the healers heals etc. be creative but restrain any ideas to fit the 3 points I made.

Adding new pets isn't the answer here. Why? Because everyone will just go with what is the most powerful and reliable for DPS. No one uses the Titan Egi for instance while in a dungeon. It is just for a solo use. Garuda is often used over Ifrit except only in certain situations (most of which are raid situations). So in the end what would Ramuh, Leviathan or Shiva egis even bring to the table that the other three don't already bring? Support Egis? Forget it because either they will be too OP or not worth it all in any way shape or form. The only thing you can do is what they already have planned which is the Egi glamour system. Let you change the look, but not the functionality of the Egi you use. It lets you be unique and stand out as a Summoner compared to others based on the Egi you use as well as doesn't fall into traps/issues that adding another pet would bring.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

Think about it, if we have a Pet, Ramuh-Egi for example that regen MP and TP while doing a good amount of damages.
Why would you want a BRD or a MCH in your party ? They will become useless since the SMN will have more DPS and the same utility, that's not balanced at all.
If we get a HP regen pet, we are gonna be SCH wannabe, I don't want that and that doesn't make sense, There is no primals that heal something.
For the Egi that will buff allies, it would be the best pet and every SMN will use it and all the other egis will be left out.

You have to think about other jobs and synergy within a party, that's what a MMO is.

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There are no primals currently in FF14 that heal, but there have been summons in past FF's that heal. And I didn't suggest a heal pet for summoner, I said maybe a mp/tp regen with a small value or buff radius, or a pet with a skill that boosts healers heals. And yes, current pets have a basic attack on 3 second cool down, but where does it say every pet has to have one?

Aiiro, if I used a pet that gave a regen buff, he'll even a hp one, I am not using Garuda or Ifrit which means I am losing that source of dps from A. Garudas Contagion or B. Ifrits auto attacks. That is a decent dps loss, summoner will not be on par with other dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

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If you're boosting dot potency, that pet would be infinitely better because of how much it synergies with DoTs+cooldowns, conserves mana. You'd also need something that can equate to 550 potency (if we're going off by your example) from other pets to be more in tone for that outside of scenarios where mobs die too fast (and even then, summoners are getting this addressed a bit anyway with tri-disaster and more burst options)

Boosting group dps? It's an utter nightmare to balance from a numbers standpoint, and you'll still fall into the realm of being useless, or being mandatory. Same with healer buffs.

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"1. match in value what we lose from not having out a dps pet 2. Not push another player's role to extinction and 3. Be equal to using any other pet. "

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In a perfect world it should be like this. But its so much easier said than done from a design/balance standpoint.

Only other MMO I've seen done this with pets is WoW's hunter, where the pets were seperated into three specs (ferocity for dps, tenacity for tank, cunning for PvP). Guess what was only used in raiding? While there are over 12 different species in ferocity (you'd have raptors, vipers, hounds, etc), they are all functionally the same (auto attack, a focus-dump attack), with them having access to one raid utility buff to fill in what the party is missing. This is more-or-less aesthetics at this point, or in my case, I was shoe-horned into always raiding with a wolf for the 5% crit buff.

If we get a Pet that buff the whole party and we're doing a good amount of damages, the BLM will be rejected.
Why would I want a BLM if I can get a SMN that will buff everyone ?
And a pet that will make our Dots stronger, everyone will use it and the other egis will be left out, just as I said earlier.
We will be in the same situation in a year.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

Adding new pets isn't the answer here. Why? Because everyone will just go with what is the most powerful and reliable for DPS. No one uses the Titan Egi for instance while in a dungeon. It is just for a solo use. Garuda is often used over Ifrit except only in certain situations (most of which are raid situations). So in the end what would Ramuh, Leviathan or Shiva egis even bring to the table that the other three don't already bring? Support Egis? Forget it because either they will be too OP or not worth it all in any way shape or form. The only thing you can do is what they already have planned which is the Egi glamour system. Let you change the look, but not the functionality of the Egi you use. It lets you be unique and stand out as a Summoner compared to others based on the Egi you use as well as doesn't fall into traps/issues that adding another pet would bring.

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Ok, what if Ramuh egi has a skill called "Static Charge" and it increases your dot potency enough to equal the amount of damage you gain from 15 additional seconds added to the dot? He also has a basic range attack, an AoE attack, and a push back attack. Sounds a bit like Garuda with just a variation in the Contagion v. "static charge" skills. But in fact, Ramuh has a niche role for times a mob is going to or needs to die faster than those additional 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

Ok, what if Ramuh egi has a skill called "Static Charge" and it increases your dot potency enough to equal the amount of damage you gain from 15 additional seconds added to the dot? He also has a basic range attack, an AoE attack, and a push back attack. Sounds a bit like Garuda with just a variation in the Contagion v. "static charge" skills. But in fact, Ramuh has a niche role for times a mob is going to or needs to die faster than those additional 15 seconds.

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Why are you against the glamour system, if you suggest to do a new pet which will be the exact same one as an already existing pet ?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If you're boosting dot potency, that pet would be infinitely better because of how much it synergies with DoTs+cooldowns, conserves mana. You'd also need something that can equate to 550 potency (if we're going off by your example) from other pets to be more in tone for that outside of scenarios where mobs die too fast (and even then, summoners are getting this addressed a bit anyway with tri-disaster and more burst options)

Boosting group dps? It's an utter nightmare to balance from a numbers standpoint, and you'll still fall into the realm of being useless, or being mandatory. Same with healer buffs.


In a perfect world it should be like this. But its so much easier said than done from a design/balance standpoint.

Only other MMO I've seen done this with pets is WoW's hunter, where the pets were seperated into three specs (ferocity for dps, tenacity for tank, cunning for PvP). Guess what was only used in raiding? While there are over 12 different species in ferocity (you'd have raptors, vipers, hounds, etc), they are all functionally the same (auto attack, a focus-dump attack), with them having access to one raid utility buff to fill in what the party is missing. This is more-or-less aesthetics at this point, or in my case, I was shoe-horned into always raiding with a wolf for the 5% crit buff.

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Good argument. I know balance is always tough. If SE said, "we'll give you a pet that has a skill to boost group dps" I would scream to start the value very very low and work it upwards until it met the criteria of equaling the direct player dps lost by not using a dps pet.

As for dot potency vs dot duration, in a short trash mob fight, dot potency, in long boss fights, dot duration. They both are balance to equal the same dps, just one is for short fights and the other for long fights.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

Why are you against the glamour system, if you suggest to do a new pet which will be the exact same one as an already existing pet ?

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But it is not the same. One increase the potency, the other duration. They both do the same dps but one is useful in short duration fights and other is suited for long drawn out fights.

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Originally Posted by Romsca

But it is not the same. One increase the potency, the other duration. They both do the same dps but one is useful in short duration fights and other is suited for long drawn out fights.

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Just as we use Garuda in dungeons and Ifrit in raids now ?

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

Just as we use Garuda in dungeons and Ifrit in raids now ?

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a fair argument.

All in all, I am just saying, with the new Trance mechanic, we could have pets that fill support roles. My examples are just a couple thoughts but that is not the limit. We can counter each other all day long as to why/why not on something but I just do not want to resign to "reskin the pet". Surely there is nothing wrong with a thoughtful discussion?

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Originally Posted by Romsca

All in all, I am just saying, with the new Trance mechanic, we could have pets that fill support roles. My examples are just a couple thoughts but that is not the limit. We can counter each other all day long as to why/why not on something but I just do not want to resign to "reskin the pet". Surely there is nothing wrong with a thoughtful discussion?

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Because you did not make this topic as something to be a thoughtful discussion, you straight up made a request for new egis instead of a simple glamour and going as far as "dealing with your art dept". It can be seen both ways, but you're definitely taking a somewhat aggressive approach toward new egis (and if you haven't noticed, we've had enough of those sort of topics which are a lot more non-sensical than this one)

The thing is that the glamour system will be a thing.
SE is just being logical, they know that players will use 1 or 2 pets. Why would they bother doing 6 or more pets.
Giving a glamour system to players is the best way to make them happy while not doing work for nothing.
If you are bored of your Ifrit or Garuda, just glamour it to Shiva or Ramuh and so on.

That's the best, most logical and less time wasting option.

Rice, the art dept comment was about how the things look. I was never happy with them visually. Functionality is a different topic.

Aiiro, you want vanity, I want function and options to my pets. I do not ask for 6 more pets. I said some primals will be though Trancing to boost dps while some would go to egi. Now we can get a support pet added. Do we as a class take a hit on dps for not using Ifrit/Garuda, yes, but that should be made up by the value of the support the pet gives. There are ways to do that. I want to discuss them while SE hasn't fully started on a glamour system.

About Dreadwyrm Trance, if I remember the reason we're getting a Bahamut style trance and not one for any of the other primals is because Bahamut is an Elder Primal, which is something different than normal primals like Ifrit and Garuda.

This one is called Dreadwrym Trance, but the idea of a Trance system for future summons is itself a good idea for us. They can have their own names. I guess it comes down to how the lore explains it, "studying the method of channeling the elder primal has brought to light a new and safer form of summoning power from the primals" etc..

I can see/understand the reasons for the decision of the glamour egis but that doesn't discount the fact that it was in many ways a lazy but overall logical decision. Additional egis could have without a doubt been added but the amount of work (Balancing) and creative thought it would require could be better spent elsewhere.

The obvious main issue would be the limiting design scope of tank/healer/dps. To break the mold would break the system, and at current they seem keen on keeping the status quo, not allowing jobs to branch out into another role, at least entirely. I for one always saw SMN as something akin to a RDM in terms of versatility what with having access to godlike creatures/avatars/eikons/primals etc. and by extension there abilities, opening up many roles that it could fill. I personally was hoping for some middle ground between XIV at current and XI's take on it, having the pet auto-attacks doing good damage, having access to a plethora of options and giving the Summoner some type of kit of its own so not to be completely reliant on the pet itself.

This, if it ever comes to be will be in a distant future so for the time we should embrace what we have, as they have been doing good work with SMN to keep it competitive and bringing back a more traditional and legitimate feel of Summoner/Summoning via Bahamut trance and new LB. It may not be a full on Summoning of old, but its a close second.