Summoner's Ifrit is bad

I mean bad, not less good.

Garuda
Pros: Ranged, doesn't have to move from target to target, also dies less
Pros: Increases summoner's debuff, unique
Con: Smaller number skills than ifrit's

Ifrit
Pros: Bigger number skills
Con: melee, has to move from mob to mob, also dies more
Neutral: Has a "kill me and you get damage" which he's not using when dead, unique

So far it's pretty equivalent and it comes down to do you want more damage or range. That would work except i left something out.

Ifrit's stun.

As you should know stun has diminishing results. I am told on AI, ifrit "uses it whenever" which means to me he spams it. Tanks can time a stun to interrupt a skil. But if Ifrit trashed the stun timer "whenever", there are no stuns to be had left.

So my recommendation is, always use garuda unless you're leveling and you don't care about timing a stun.

EDIT: too long

If you're good at smn micro managing ifrit becomes less of a problem. If you're good at SMN you're not letting your pets do their abilities and are using obey. If you're good at smn ifrit is better than garuda every time.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

If you're good at smn micro managing ifrit becomes less of a problem. If you're good at SMN you're not letting your pets do their abilities and are using obey. If you're good at smn ifrit is better than garuda every time.

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Haha yeah, personally I find the difference between Ifrit and Garuda is pretty marginal. Each one has useful applications and whether you use Ifrit or Garuda during a dungeon run, it really isn't going to make the difference between a clear or a wipe. If you want to use Ifrit, use Ifrit. If you want to use Garuda, use Garuda. Might be a slightly different story for Coil and certain EX Primals. But for any other PvE content, it really doesn't matter people....at least not enough for it to be a hindrance.

You could macro Ifrit's skills onto every skill you cast...if you really are worried about his stun affecting DR.

Woohoo.

First point: Bosses that you actually have to worry about are immune to stuns

Second Point: Ifrit does more damage then Garuda

Third Point: Our mana problems were fixed with the Ruin Mana Nerf.


Now they are both EQUALLY VIABLE. Is the fight a dummy fight? Ifrit is better. Is the fight a movment heavy adds everywhere fight? Garuda tends to win out.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

If you're good at SMN you're not letting your pets do their abilities and are using obey.

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So, Smn pets do more damage just auto attacking?

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

So, Smn pets do more damage just auto attacking?

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Yes... ...

Ifrit: Pro: Benefits from NIN Dancing Edge/War Storm's Eye as Ifrit's attacks are Slashing.

Its pretty simple

Use Garuda if You do not have a Ninja or a Warrior in the group or you need a pet to stay at Range. (ie Pre-dive phase T5 Soak team) or if you need an Oh Shit I forgot to maintain my dots button.

Use Ifrit If you have the Ninja or Warrior and there is no worry about constant close AOE to the boss. (ie 5 headed Dragon in World of Darkness)

Ifrits abilities do more damage than its autoattack...so use them. On cd, unless you need to save the aoe or something for an add phase.

I don't believe SMN ifrit is bad. It does provide a bit more DPS if fighting against single target enemies such certain final coils like imdugud for example. It just the downside is that the lack of contagion. So the trade off to me despite having to burn a lil more mana while ifrit is up, you'll do more DPS in the end......only for single target.

Any SMN that always uses Garuda, is just shorting themselves. You have to use both accordingly when necessary. There are actually very few things that are that dangerous to Ifrit, that he won't survive simply from AoE heals and most of those tend to be in Savage coils only. As for the stun point, you could just leave him on obey and manually use the skills. Also the only things that needed to be stunned are like dungeon bosses, you know the ones you can heal through pretty much any mechanic?

OMG youre soo cute !!!

I think you need to play around with managing your pets. First of all pets never use skills unless they are directed to or are on SIC. Apart from selene who even then im a little meh about never have your pet on SIC, they will do less damaging, generating unnecessary NRs, and waste skills. Pet AIs are good you just need to know how to deal with them,I mean selene even when on SIC will only try to silence a skill when its being cast.

As it stands ifrit when placed correctly doesnt die. Manage your pet placement, e.g. when you know a skill like crackle hiss is coming out move your pet a little if needed.

The whole moving between targets with ifrit is very negligible. There isnt a fight where ifrit needs to move a great deal, the most I would say is in t12 and t13 and even then he seems to maintain uptime on the target.

When you add the above to the fact he does more base dmg than garuda and when you add the buffs from melees he does more there really is little reason to use garuda. The one benefit she brings is reduces overall MP usage via contagion and 5min a slightly more bursty AOE blast.

It's all about micromechanics. Always have your egi on Obey.

Example with T9 (weaved in Ruin2 ignored)
Start with garuda and open with RS+Bio2+Miasma+Bio+Fester+Miasma2
+Contagion+Shadowflare+Sponti+Fester+Ifrit
+Egi-Buffs+Enkindle+STAY(? so ifrit wont come to you while meteordives)+ etc.
Let him do his Counterattack-Action while Nael does his dives to get an extrahit when he dashes on the tank. You may have to repeat OBEY, if ifrits bit out of range.

Then switch to Garuda at golemphase (too much moving for ifrit) and repeat opener on P3.

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Originally Posted by Causality

Ifrit: Pro: Benefits from NIN Dancing Edge/War Storm's Eye as Ifrit's attacks are Slashing

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Ifrit uses Auto Attack and Burning Strike every 3s. The Auto Attack is Slashing while Burning Strike, Flaming Crush, and Crimson Cyclone are Blunt; they benefit from MNK's Dragon Kick instead. Even without either of these two things to increase Ifrit's damage, it still does 20~25% more DPS than Garuda on a single target.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

So, Smn pets do more damage just auto attacking?

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Ifrit's stun and AOE are essentially off-GCD attacks. When used manually in Obey, they'll be used in between Burning Strikes rather than instead of Burning Strike, so it's a noticeable gain.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

So, Smn pets do more damage just auto attacking?

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Yes by actually controlling your pet and weaving skills in. For example: Ifrit (Burning Strike > Crimson Cyclone > Burning Strike > Flaming Crush > Burning Strike > Auto Attack > .....)

This is why I believe maximizing dps as a SMN is the hardest out of all the jobs. So many people do not synchronize with the pet.

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

Ifrit's stun and AOE are essentially off-GCD attacks. When used manually in Obey, they'll be used in between Burning Strikes rather than instead of Burning Strike, so it's a noticeable gain.

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Ifrit's stun and AOE are not truly oGCD. There is a global delay to "Queing" the Crimson Cyclone, Flaming Crush, and Radiant Shield immediately after any pet action and then another global delay after any of those actions are used (probably based on SS). The global delays don't seem to be quite as high as Ifrit's static recast time (not affected by SS) of 3.0 seconds of Burning Strike. I have 401 SS currently and it feel more like 1.25-1.5 seconds delay.

You can either "Queue" any "oGCD" actions and they will occur automatically when the global delay is up or you can press the "oGCD" action after the global delay but before the next auto attack action and it will go off IMMEDIATELY.

There is little to no DPS increase and if any then possibly 2 DPS max of using any "oGCD" IMMEDIATELY after auto attack action. Either way it's not worth your time and just serves as a distraction and builds frustration.

In fact if you use any "oGCD" after the delay but before the recast time of Burning Strike then you are just lowering your DPS as you are postponing Ifrit's highest DPS action (the auto attack action) further than the recast time of 3.0 seconds, which is why Sic mode is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

Yes by actually controlling your pet and weaving skills in. For example: Ifrit (Burning Strike > Crimson Cyclone > Burning Strike > Flaming Crush > Burning Strike > Auto Attack > .....)

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No.

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

I believe maximizing dps as a SMN is the hardest out of all the jobs.

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Yes.

SMN's who actually know what they are doing stopped using garuda for most things months ago. at the current gear level ifrit outperforms garuda in just about every situation

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

Ifrit's stun and AOE are not truly oGCD.

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There is not a GCD for them, it's just animation lock. It does delay the next Burning Strike slightly, but not enough to make it not worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

(probably based on SS).

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At the moment, Ifrit is completely unaffected by Spell Speed. You would need Skill Speed in order to have any impact on its recast times.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

There is little to no DPS increase and if any then possibly 2 DPS max of using any "oGCD" IMMEDIATELY after auto attack action. Either way it's not worth your time and just serves as a distraction and builds frustration.

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This image is a little old now, but it still makes its point.

http://i.imgur.com/UTVddtU.png

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

So, Smn pets do more damage just auto attacking?

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I said let. You're still making them use their abilities, just not when they want to and not that useless 3rd one that only does dmg when he's hit.

I would still say Garuda is good for PVP if you ever play it.

As it is alot harder to force a de-summon on her and the knockback is pretty helpful

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

This image is a little old now, but it still makes its point.

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Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story.

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

It boils down to knowing the fights and the job honestly and realizing both pets have a place and sticking to just one will eventually nerf a summoner's dps. Who knows what will happen on the 19th? Ifrit may get his own version of contagion!


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship.

It's not so much dmg gained as it is mp efficiency gained.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story.

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

It boils down to knowing the fights and the job honestly and realizing both pets have a place and sticking to just one will eventually nerf a summoner's dps. Who knows what will happen on the 19th? Ifrit may get his own version of contagion!


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship.

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I hate to break it to you, but the SMN synergy and damage from it doesn't matter.

Ifrit just does more damage overall. Contagion? Hardly a difference maker even for DoTs boosted with Raging and Foe over the course of encounters.

Do you need MNK or NIN/WAR? Nope, he already does more damage then Garuda without that.

His AoE? The range of his default attack no? It's not impossible to hit more then one target at all.

Movement? What do you define as movement? In T11 add phase, he beats Garuda there too and that's consistent movement.


Synergy:
Garuda + SMN = SMN + / Pet -
Ifrit + SMN = SMN - / Pet +

The difference here when we talk about synergy is that SMNs numbers aren't stagnant. They continually decrease as a fight goes on. So if you shift the focus of your DPS, to a source that maintains a constant number? You essentially save yourself DPS by losing less.
Ultimately what I'm saying is, no the field situation vs the dummy parse is not much different at all. Garuda's use atm is few and far between.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Movement? What do you define as movement? In T11 add phase, he beats Garuda there too and that's consistent movement.

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This statement is pretty significant because Ifrit as a melee class can attack while moving. You also have time to move Ifrit into PLACE during the Module Spawns so that his downtime attacking the Sphere is limited.

On fights where there are adds and excessive movement, you wouldn't move Ifrit off the main boss anyways. (T12 Phoenix, T13 Bahamut etc)

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Shinryu's numbers are completely correct as well on how much extra damage you get from those additional Ifrit skills.

You just need to make sure of where you are attacking from with Ifrit as currently you need Tank accuracy to hit Flank 100% so make sure you are get getting his attacks off from the rear.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Interesting numbers, but I think mileage may vary here. I've seen numbers that are quite different form this. Some of the numbers actually seem somewhat strange to me.

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If something doesn't look right to you then feel free to test yourself to draw your own conclusions. Parse your Ifrit on Obey and let it just whack away, and then test again using it's extra skills on CD. Your numbers may be different as well because you have high Crit and Spell Speed, where as you would want high Crit/Det. (Spell Speed effects Garuda but not Ifrit)

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At any rate, there are also a number of other things to consider with Ifrit's use:

1) If you have a nin/war+monk are they keeping their buffs up? you think this is a no brainer, but well...Ifrit is still higher DPS
2) Ifrit's AoE is VERY small.. very.. very small. He engages aat max melee attack range, his AoE is centered on him and it's range is just a hair past his melee reach. It's quite easy to miss a grouping of mobs in a mass pile because the AoE just doesn't reach far enough. Garuda's localizes on the target, this insures more dmg landing as there's less chance for the AoE to just physically miss. Ifrit is the Single Target pet and Garuda is the AOE pet. If you have enough AOE to warrant Garuda then this is a no-brainer.
3) When raging + pots + foe etc are up for the contagion phase, the difference between the two is a far, far wider. This chart doesn't seem to count any buffs at all which isn't a fair correlation between the two. Ifrit quickly outpaces the initial burst of using Buffed Dots + Contagion.


Also, this needs to be said for anyone who is looking at this chart: numbers collected at a dummy are one thing when it's nice and sterile and nothing moves. In the field however is a different story. - Making the most efficient use of your pet will equalize the difference between a dummy chart and an actual fight

That being said, they both have their place in certain content. I'm of the mind that neither one is a 100% use only sort of pet. Smn should be using both and should know when to use both. Is there a lot of movement/adds? Do the adds stack poorly? Do you have a slashing/blunt debeuff? Will ifrit be taking -Physical- hits to make the most of radiant shield? Do you need a stun and can it be a knock back or no?

The right pet for the right job is definitely important. Ifrit is just usually the right pet and Radiant Shield is terrible.


Edit: I knew something looked strange and it's the contagion sections This is only one half of the picture here.. the egi! Where is the smn's dmg? This isn't showing the synergy and gains from that inter-relationship. - On Average Contagion is equal to 15s/GCD - 3GCD = # of Ruins
So in current gear ~ 240 Potency * 4.5 @ 60s Intervals = ~18 DPS for the Summoner.

Comparing pet damage of the current BiS you have Ifrit 195 - Garuda 152 + Summoner 18 = 170

So even without Slash/Blunt Ifrit is doing a more consistent 25 DPS, and that's if Summoner is getting 100% use of their extended Dots (adds not dyeing before they run their full duration)

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

It's not so much dmg gained as it is mp efficiency gained.

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No, it's only about Damage Gained as a DPS class. It doesn't matter if you finish the fight with 10 MP or 3000 MP.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

No, it's only about Damage Gained as a DPS class. It doesn't matter if you finish the fight with 10 MP or 3000 MP.

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No I was saying garuda is an MP gain not a dmg gain. I've been for Ifrit for this entire thread you don't have to explain it to me rofl.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

No I was saying garuda is an MP gain not a dmg gain. I've been for Ifrit for this entire thread you don't have to explain it to me rofl.

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Lmao. Yeah I took it completely out of context. Going back and reading the full thing I see it now.

Apologies /bow

Contagion's actual damage contribution can be though of as a nuke that gives you...roughly 1.875 GCDs.

So essentially it's an ability that does 150 potency.

Using this data, you can realize that under RS + pots + whathaveyou, its equivalent to Ifrit using a skill under those conditions as well.

I understand what the OP is saying and I totally agree. Stun and Silence needs to be removed from pets, period.

But that is utility...do you guys even think before you propose something? What if a SMN is in pvp and needs to interrupt something? Or is soloing? Or your other interrupters die?

If the problem is "bad" summoners casting stuns etc, what SE needs to realize is

1. Many, many abilities (notably DRG, MNK oGCDs) stun as well.
2. The reason they are in rotations is because they are a (in some cases, significant) dps increase
3. Make stuns not have any potency, esp not high potency like MNK or DRG ones. DPS should not be coupled with CC.
or
4. Remove pet stuns/silences from Sic.

or, and this is my favorite one

5. Realize nothing needs to be interrupted and just deal with it.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Contagion's actual damage contribution can be though of as a nuke that gives you...roughly 1.875 GCDs.

So essentially it's an ability that does 150 potency.

Using this data, you can realize that under RS + pots + whathaveyou, its equivalent to Ifrit using a skill under those conditions as well.

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You forget contagion does 0 damage for garuda and it make pretty long delay for next wind blade attack because it have pretty long animation so you are not gaining even that 150 potency and if you have rouse + spur active during you do it, it is even bigger dps lose for garuda. Contagion increase your own dps but it is dps loss for your pet at same time.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Stun and Silence needs to be removed from pets, period.

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I disagree. Although it was just a dungeon, Ifrit-Egi has served me well with his stuns for the Temple of Qarn Hard's final boss. Boss tethers to me, I stun the boss with Ifrit and then I get as far away as possible from the boss to break the tether. WAR could have done it, but I guess it was on cool down (so lucky me for it not resisting). Sure, making Ifrit NOT use one of his abilities probably dropped his DPS a little bit, but if it meant I could continue to DPS without spending a minute becoming and being a mummy, it's well worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

You forget contagion does 0 damage for garuda and it make pretty long delay for next wind blade attack because it have pretty long animation so you are not gaining even that 150 potency and if you have rouse + spur active during you do it, it is even bigger dps lose for garuda. Contagion increase your own dps but it is dps loss for your pet at same time.

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I mean...that is what happens when you get a pet to do an attack as well.

So...its equivalent.

Contagion = ~2 free player GCDs, no pet autoattack
Flaming Crush/whatever = +pet ability damage, no pet autoattack

You can compare potencies this way...

youre completly wrong garuda is a niche summon and ifrit should almost always be used he does far more dps than garuda+contagin and the melee range doesnt matter because most stuff doesnt hurt him and on top off that he doesnt need to move much

He also doesn't suffer the problem melee DPS do. He can attack while moving. Melee DPS often can not because of lolatency.

Ifrit-egi scales better than Garuda-egi the better your equipment becomes. The only thing that keeps her out is Contagion. After that, summon Ifrit-egi for pure awesomeness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Garuda is better for fights that either have a lot of movement on the primary target(s), and/or there are adds that live long enough for you to abuse Contagion + Bane. Ifrit is better for fights with little movement on the primary target(s), and few or weak adds.

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Originally Posted by Alamandaros

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Garuda is better for fights that either have a lot of movement on the primary target(s), and/or there are adds that live long enough for you to abuse Contagion + Bane. Ifrit is better for fights with little movement on the primary target(s), and few or weak adds.

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What do you consider as a lot of movement? T11 is not enough movement. Ifrit wins there and that's as movement heavy as we have seen. Only something like T9 first phase, would be considered enough movement to actually restrict Ifrit's DPS.

Garuda is good for 3 or more adds that will actually live out most of the duration of Contagion'd DoTs. With 1 mob + Boss, you will get more DPS at current from just having Ifrit sit on the boss and manually upkeeping DoTs on both targets. No real Contagion benefit in that scenario either.

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Originally Posted by tikiwiki

youre completly wrong garuda is a niche summon and ifrit should almost always be used he does far more dps than garuda+contagin and the melee range doesnt matter because most stuff doesnt hurt him and on top off that he doesnt need to move much

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This is false, it only seems this way because everything burns down fast due to High end gear, which means Dots don't take really take affect like they should. With the Spell Speed buff, Tri-Disaster buff, and everything being scaled to current gear in expansion, expect Garuda to take a much bigger role, especially if they dont fix Ifrit's terrible AoE.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

What do you consider as a lot of movement?

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I only came back the other week, so I haven't had time to do any raiding, however a fight like The Chrysalis would be a perfect example. All the teleporting Nabriales does results in a lot of downtime for Ifrit.