Do you think that the Twelve will eventually become major players in the plot?

Potential Spoilers ahead! I couldn't fit it in the title.



Not counting the Calamity, in which they played a major part.

I don't know why I starting thinking about this, but what if we somehow see them again in the far future (like beyond heavensward). This reminded me of one line during the 2.0 storyline where Gaius (I think it was him anyway, it's been a while) compared the Twelve to the Primals. Additionally, we've seen instances of beings that weren't originally primals returning as such (Louisoix, Shive, I think King Mog counts too)

Basically, I was wondering if we will eventually see them return with a greater magnitude to the plot, as potentially primals, either benevolent and malevolent or even just to a lesser extent see them in any capacity.

I wouldn't mind seeing them in some sort of dream or Echo cutscene where they talk to us in some capacity. Not even something major, just showing up and talking to us.

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Originally Posted by Brady672

This reminded me of one line during the 2.0 storyline where Gaius (I think it was him anyway, it's been a while) compared the Twelve to the Primals.

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Nabriales, before his fight, mentions the staff's how Louisoux called upon the Twelve, IIRC. That what you mean?

Also, I'd point to the Twelve as primal figures. They're only brought into the world via a large concentration of aether and humanity's prayers. It's possible they'll have some major part their own, possibly an expac about them specifically, but they either need to have a miniscule part or a huge focus on them. The lore states they've mostly abandoned humanity. If they show up out of nowhere, devs really can't involve them without trivializing that.

Am I the only one hoping the Twelve are aspects of Hydaelyn, and that there's at SOME POINT a battle involving them to get aetheric power back to Hydaelyn? With them being fought or fought for.

Yes, as Noka has said, the Twelve are very close to the primals. Louisouix even planned to kill himself before the twelve are fully summoned. We might talk to them like we talk to Hydaelin but they certainly won't phisically apear. Unless of course the Ascians want them to appear.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Unless of course the Ascians want them to appear.

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Like when Halone appeared to the Ishgardians to tell them where to build their city ? :rolleyes:

Before, there were Archons which were the Twelve in human(well, mortal) form.
It didn't seem like they were destructive (in the Primal way) in this form, so it's possible if they ever become major players it might be related to being Archons.

Our Scions are called Archons too, but it hasn't been directly related yet to that usage.

The Twelve that Louisoix summoned were primals because he summoned them as you summon any primal, with aether and prayer. That does not mean the Twelve actually are primals though. Remember that Bahamut and Shiva were not originally primals.

We know very little of the origins of the Twelve, if the legends are the result of countless embellished retellings of the deeds of real people, or if they even truly existed at all. It's very possible they still live given their parallels to the Ascians (and the theories that they may be the Ascians). A long while back around the launch of 2.0 we were told that we would eventually get answers on who or what the Twelve really are. They will become more important to the story around that time. I've also said this a few times but I'll say it again: the Moogle myth about King Mog and their service to the Twelve said they lived in a city in the Heavens. Now where are we going in this expansion...? I'd say expect at least a few new answers in 3.0. ;)

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Originally Posted by Noka

Also, I'd point to the Twelve as primal figures. They're only brought into the world via a large concentration of aether and humanity's prayers. It's possible they'll have some major part their own, possibly an expac about them specifically, but they either need to have a miniscule part or a huge focus on them. The lore states they've mostly abandoned humanity. If they show up out of nowhere, devs really can't involve them without trivializing that.

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I dunno...even if the Twelve did abandon us they could conceivably do an entire expansion around us finding out why they abandoned us and convincing them to come back. That would probably make for a very interesting plot point actually.

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Originally Posted by Brady672

I don't know why I starting thinking about this, but what if we somehow see them again in the far future (like beyond heavensward). This reminded me of one line during the 2.0 storyline where Gaius (I think it was him anyway, it's been a while) compared the Twelve to the Primals.

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He also points out our reluctance to call upon them, something something gorge on aether.

At this point, I can't see them being more than they have been: essentially a minor background item. The way the plot's gone and has been going leaves no hint that they might have further involvement. Ascians and Zodiark and all that seem to be more of a vs. Hydaelyn thing, and the other major plot lines mostly have to do with dragons.

Not that it couldn't happen but from what we've seen so far, it seems really unlikely in the near term.

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Originally Posted by Kytrin

I dunno...even if the Twelve did abandon us they could conceivably do an entire expansion around us finding out why they abandoned us and convincing them to come back. That would probably make for a very interesting plot point actually.

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Of course, some sort of future expac exploring a previously minor theme is definitely possible. Happened with FFXI, after all...

But I've gathered from that one interview (or was it live letter?) that the 4.0 expac will have more of an undersea theme, or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Of course, some sort of future expac exploring a previously minor theme is definitely possible. Happened with FFXI, after all...

But I've gathered from that one interview (or was it live letter?) that the 4.0 expac will have more of an undersea theme, or something along those lines.

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Yeah I remember that too. They said they had the choice between the sea and sky and chose the sky, so sea is likely next after this. Still, they also said something about wanting to run the game for at least 10 years, so it's totally doable eventually if they can't work it into the next one.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Like when Halone appeared to the Ishgardians to tell them where to build their city ? :rolleyes:

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You think you are joking, but it could be true. For starters we don't have much evidence wether it was really Halone who appeared (if anything appeared at all). And second, Lahabrea and co are playing a pretty long con, so it is reasonable to assume that they had a hand in planting a nation state at the doorstep of the dravanian horde. It's not like the two are waging an eternal war or anything.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

You think you are joking, but it could be true. For starters we don't have much evidence wether it was really Halone who appeared (if anything appeared at all). And second, Lahabrea and co are playing a pretty long con, so it is reasonable to assume that they had a hand in planting a nation state at the doorstep of the dravanian horde. It's not like the two are waging an eternal war or anything.

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Regardless of whether it was truly Halone that appeared to the Coerthans before the founding of Ishgard there has to be some true origin to the mythology of the Twelve. It is very likely the Ascians have used the myths to manipulate people since the Twelve departed Eorzea but I find it unlikely that they fabricated the very source of the mythology.

The game is full of hints and nods to the concept that every myth has a shred of truth in its origins. Something of the Twelve is real, whether they're just people, gods, or something else. Bahamut, Shiva and Phoenix are proof enough of this, and Belias' presence in the SMN quest series suggests much the same for Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Regardless of whether it was truly Halone that appeared to the Coerthans before the founding of Ishgard there has to be some true origin to the mythology of the Twelve. It is very likely the Ascians have used the myths to manipulate people since the Twelve departed Eorzea but I find it unlikely that they fabricated the very source of the mythology.

The game is full of hints and nods to the concept that every myth has a shred of truth in its origins. Something of the Twelve is real, whether they're just people, gods, or something else. Bahamut, Shiva and Phoenix are proof enough of this, and Belias' presence in the SMN quest series suggests much the same for Ifrit.

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I'm not saying the twelve ain't real. I'm saying that they likely won't appear in a physical form without the Ascian's consent.

This is thin ice. "Accidentally" summoning Phoenix is enough for us to essentially have done something for which we've hunted the beast tribes for years. Summoning the Twelve or in any way manifesting them in the Land would be taking that many steps further, and Louisoix knew that.

Me personally I'm taking Gaius' Garlean View on the Twelve. That being that Eikons (Primal or otherwise) are simply energy sucking monsters masquerading as Gods.

Could the Twelve be real? Of course they could, The Primals spirits as well for that matter. But what is summoned is most certainly not the deity being cried out too.

Lets say we call out to Phoenix again, who says it'll actually be Louisoix this time? He gave up his life to become it sure but Bahamut Tempered his (Louisoix) mortal spirit before He (Bahamut) and The Primal Phoenix disappeared into aether.

So while I believe that the Twelve were some kind of all powerful mortal (Assuming they haven't always been deities) I don't believe that any summoned incarnation of them would actually be The Twelve. Like when the Ascians tried to talk the Ala Mihgans into summoning Rahlger the Destroyer. He might have said he was Rahlger, he might have looked and acted like they though Rahlger was suppose to, heck he might even have a lot more knowledge on the other 11/12 in the Pantheon than his summoners, but I don't believe it would actually be Rahlger himself.

So this comes back to the argument of where the heck these summoned beings are coming from when summoned and going back to after they're defeated. (And also if the Dawn Father and Dusk Mother of Auri lore have the same issue as The Twelve)

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Originally Posted by Balipu

You think you are joking, but it could be true.

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I was not joking. I'm dead serious on this. Halone appears, war happens, Ascians are sided with the ones seeing Halone ? I just think it's a little too... obvious ("Booooo, bad Ascians!").
Though I believe the mythology to be real, in the sense which everyone of the gods (the Twelves, the primals, Phoenix) and former "people" (in a large meaning : King Moggle Mog XII, Saint Shiva, Bahamut) had a real existence at some point.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

So while I believe that the Twelve were some kind of all powerful mortal (Assuming they haven't always been deities) I don't believe that any summoned incarnation of them would actually be The Twelve. Like when the Ascians tried to talk the Ala Mihgans into summoning Rahlger the Destroyer. He might have said he was Rahlger, he might have looked and acted like they though Rahlger was suppose to, heck he might even have a lot more knowledge on the other 11/12 in the Pantheon than his summoners, but I don't believe it would actually be Rahlger himself.

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If we are to believe that the primals are a big ass shared consciousness sucking aether dry to maintain a form, it's safe to assume that it takes the form and memories the followers want it to have. In this sense, Rhalgr would have looked, behaved and known everything he is said to have in the mythology of the twelves. Though it wouldn't have made him the real one as all that isn't said in the stories would have likely not been here.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

If we are to believe that the primals are a big ass shared consciousness sucking aether dry to maintain a form, it's safe to assume that it takes the form and memories the followers want it to have. In this sense, Rhalgr would have looked, behaved and known everything he is said to have in the mythology of the twelves. Though it wouldn't have made him the real one as all that isn't said in the stories would have likely not been here.

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I'm just kind of working on a fringe theory here that "Eikon" (Which I think means something along the lines of false god IRL) is actually a correct term in that it's something pretending to be a god. We've seen Ifrit the Lord of the Infernos but can we say for certain we've ever seen the real ifrit? For all we know Ifrit's mortal form may have been a woman. (Now I'm running along the FF10 Faytes rout too. Gods this is gonna get complicated)

My big thing is that what we are summoning may or may not be who we're trying to call. But if it was a "Wrong Number" so to speak and what ever came out got the job done, now you know exactly who/what to call even if it isn't what you were calling for the very 1st time.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I'm not saying the twelve ain't real. I'm saying that they likely won't appear in a physical form without the Ascian's consent.

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I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from. The true Twelve, the original beings, would not have been aether-sucking primals. They were either people, gods or something else. I don't see why the Ascians would necessarily have anything to do with whether they reveal themselves or not.

If they still live then they are still somewhere out there in the world and we may either discover their location or they will reveal themselves when they choose to. The Ascians would not necessarily have anything to do with that. If they are dead, then yes, the only way they would manifest again is as primals but again that would have nothing to do with the Ascians. Louisoix summoned the Twelve to stop Dalamud and that summoning was entirely outside of the Ascians' plan (they wanted Dalamud and Bahamut to simply wreak as much devastation as possible and Louisoix's actions delayed events long enough for the WoL to mount a counter-offensive to destroy Bahamut).

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Louisoix summoned the Twelve to stop Dalamud and that summoning was entirely outside of the Ascians' plan

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Are you absolutely sure about this?

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I'm not saying the twelve ain't real. I'm saying that they likely won't appear in a physical form without the Ascian's consent.

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I don't think their consent has anything to do with it. They teach people how to summon primals because it's often in their best interests, but there's no indication anywhere that Ascian support is required.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Are you absolutely sure about this?

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Technically, without a dev answer, we can't be absolutely sure of anything. I'd say it's improbable they had anything to do with planning on the Twelve being summoned. But I find it particularly unfeasible/unlikely they had anything to do with the summoning of Phoenix. Shiva also seemed to be an independent operation--although the Ascians are involved with Ishgard, Iceheart is their enemy, so...

That's actually a very interesting thought, if the Ascians are backing Ysaile AND pulling the strings of the Archbishop then they're fabricating the war or prolonging it for their own agenda. Which frankly isn't surprising and it also reminds me a lot of the Lucavi from FFT, for several reason which I may expand later. >_>

I suspect that the Twelve are linked to the Warriors of Light and The Echo. I feel like they could have been a former band of people gifted with the Echo, much like The Path of the Twelve was, and that they gained mastery of the echo, which has been alluded to being similar to the ascian's power. This may have led to them performing great deeds, as the antithesis to the ascians, which led to stories and tales, and eventually worship of them.

I don't read into a ton of lore, though, so maybe there's something out there that disproves this theory!

So yeah, I do think we'll see a lot more about them, the more we learn about the echo, and what it truly is/leads to.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Shiva also seemed to be an independent operation--although the Ascians are involved with Ishgard, Iceheart is their enemy, so...

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Don't forget that once we defeat Shiva, we can see Ascians discussing about it in these terms :

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Lahabrea will be pleased

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We should not be so fast at discarding the Ascians's implication in Shiva's return.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Which frankly isn't surprising and it also reminds me a lot of the Lucavi from FFT, for several reason which I may expand later. >_>

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There are A LOT of references to Ivalice. I wouldn't be surprised it's an other to add to the list

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Don't forget that once we defeat Shiva, we can see Ascians discussing about it in these terms:

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Lahabrea will be pleased.

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To piggy-back off my reply here and keep that train of thought running, I've been using what ifs and maybes for a while to try to explore the evidence as a group, but personally, I don't think there's even the shadow of a doubt that Shiva rose to due Ascian machination. Lahabrea and Nabriales' involvement was obvious without Urianger pointing the finger at them or Nabriales admitting it, imho. However, that doesn't mean it was specifically a part of the larger Ascian council's intentions. Lahabrea seems to be strong-arming the reins into his hand so he can choose how chaos is sown.

The interpretation I formed was that Nabriales said, "Lahabrea will be pleased." because the essence of a primal was successfully put into the hands of Ysayle per Lahabrea's intent due to this growing obsession with merging man and deiform. The reason he followed it up with "How unfortunate," though, is that it gave Lahabrea credibility, when what Nabriales wanted was to rise above him, sit at Zodiark's right hand, and return this world to Darkness. That disappointment is, as far as I can tell so far, the very reason he went off-script and stole Tupsimati as soon as he realized the Light no longer prevented shadow from being cast into the Solar.

Playing sides against each other is what they do. Ishgard and Iceheart are just two figures on their war table.

I hope so.

At the very least I'd love it if Halone gets summoned by the Holy See of Ishgard

Strange thought I just had. We know mortals can be turned into primals with revelations of Final Coil and Shiva.

As a thought, what if the 12 where originally the crystal braves, which consisted of......12.

Or just a coinkidink? ^_^

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Strange thought I just had. We know mortals can be turned into primals with revelations of Final Coil and Shiva.

As a thought, what if the 12 where originally the crystal braves, which consisted of......12.

Or just a coinkidink? ^_^

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Hehe. Could be. At this point it's all speculation. Maybe we'll see more developments in 3.0 or 4.0, or maybe we'll eventually get an expac focused on the subject. Only time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Strange thought I just had. We know mortals can be turned into primals with revelations of Final Coil and Shiva.

As a thought, what if the 12 where originally the crystal braves, which consisted of......12.

Or just a coinkidink? ^_^

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Crystal Braves, or Zodiac Braves? I just wanted to be sure I'm clear which group you meant, here.

Either way, I think it's fairly clear at this point that the Twelve are akin to the primals, but that they have one very major advantage over "normal" primals: the sheer volume of worshippers throughout Eorzea if not (the planet) Hydaelyn. I don't think Gaius and the Ascians are wrong when it concerns invoking/summoning the Twelve. Nabriales has no reason to lie to us about it, and corroborated Gaius' claim that the Twelve are exactly the same as the primals. Given how Tupsimati works, the circumstances are completely the same for calling upon the Twelve as any other primal; the difference lies in the fact that an actual manifestation of any of the Twelve would be extremely powerful due to how many prayers are devoted to that "deiform entity", which I presume means the requisite aether (and aetherial drain to the land) is just as equally greater. In addition, a side quest in Southern Thanalan mentions an Ascian attempt to have Rhalgr summoned by some of the hotheaded youths of Little Ala Mhigo, which is also fuel for "The Twelve are really powerful primals", because the Ascians have been actively encouraging primal summoning.

So in short, what I think happened was that the Twelve were heroes from an early (the First?) Age, who became primals and had their memory live on through those sapient entities on Eorzea that survived to see them ascend. Because the memory remains, their power can still be enacted even millenia later. What I don't get is why no one has tried to explicitly summon one in the time since that we know of. I suspect it requires an obscene amount of aether to fully call one of the Twelve into manifestation, which is why it hasn't happened yet.

I do hope they go more into the mythology of the Twelve, because it's pretty clear that history was warped in their favor, as Minfilia speculated upon regarding Midgardsormr's pact of watching over Silvertear.