Sell me on Summoner.

This is a bit of an indulgent thing to make a thread about, but figured I'd toss it out there.

I want to play Summoner. I love Summoners in other FF games. So, tell me what makes it worthwhile and why it'd be a good DPS choice for Heavensward. Make a discussion of it or not, I'm pretty much just looking to be inspired.

Backstory: I leveled ACN for Scholar. I'm probably making White Mage my main healer going forward, but don't want to leave this collecting dust. Summoner is just sitting here as an option. I've tinkered with it but don't get the sense of "feedback" that other DPS classes deliver...so far. It seems to be quite passive and lukewarm compared to the more direct role played by others, despite the numbers being mathematically "sufficient" for what it's supposed to do.

So, what's the appeal? What's to make this something to aspire to play, and play well?

http://i.imgur.com/snkHrdL.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/l6sq6.jpg

Try it and decide for yourself.

The fact that 90% of summoners ruin everything means that if you learn how to play it, you'll automatically be in the top 10% of summoners.

If you don't like Damage over time, don't play summoner. If you can't keep track of all the cooldowns and DoT timers, don't play summoner.

I feel the whole Arcanist family is great for people who want to constantly be watching things and actively reacting to situations, such as trying to time recasts of DoTs to maximize their up time, or deciding just when to use Virus or Eye for an Eye. Even if you don't get into the micro managing that some players do with their pets, the class can be a great deal of fun if you enjoy constantly keeping things in motion, rather than simply following the more mundane rotations of other classes. This is just my opinion on the matter though. Fair warning if you do play as it. Most people won't notice how much you're actually doing, because you're using damage over time rather than the giant one hit numbers other classes rely on. If handled right, you can deal just as much damage as them, while conserving your energy to keep it up for longer, yet most people will just notice the relatively small numbers from the individual ticks, and think you're not doing as much damage as you are....

Gamer3427 --
That nicely quantifies the thing I like about healers as well, and gives me something to look for the appeal in. Awareness and control over the wider situation as opposed to focus. Thank you for summing it up so well.

Xoriam --
I like the cut of your jib.

The best thing about playing summoner by far is switching to black mage.

king of trash mob killers.

that's about it.

Summoner is a really hard sell. Seriously.

It's not a job which pats you on the back for a job well done. Every major attack is a damage over time effect, so you're not going to see any huge damage spikes other than Fester. The problem with Fester is that it only works on a single target and eats up aetherflow stacks so it can only be used 3 times per minute.

It's not a job which works well during the add phases of a boss. Because of its DoT nature, you need to cast all three on each target. You can use Bane to 'copy' your DoT's, but only to a maximum of 3 others and they have to be close together for that to work. This means adds take longer to kill than they would with other DPS jobs on the whole.

It's not a job where your summons are big and impressive. They deal small amounts of damage, amounting to a total of 30% of your damage output. Every 5 minutes you can use their 'signature attack' by means of Enkindle. While this sounds cool, in reality it doesn't hit nearly as hard as Fester even if you pop every cooldown at once and doesn't even give you a flashy visual effect to enjoy.

It's not a job where you have a huge variety of attacks. Aside from Miasma and Bio casts, the majority of the time will be spent spamming Ruin spells. These make up the extra damage while your DoT's tick down the enemy HP. Individually, these attacks don't hit very hard in fact they're significantly weaker than most basic attacks from other DPS classes. The upside is that Ruin II can be cast while moving, but that's scant comfort with it costing almost double MP for the privilege.

It's certainly a unique job, but it's a tough one to recommend on its own merits.
- Item level 121 Summoner

most important thing to know about smn is that it is nothing like you would imagine it from previous FF titles. It's main focus is on keeping up dots and using filler moves and your aetherflow charges in between to maximize your dps. the summon itself is just another "dot" with some added skills, which you most of the time use to simple increase your dps. though with dreadwyrm stance coming in heavensward it seems to change a bit, since it's adding a "burst phase" to the job once you used up your aetherflow. still need to see how it works. also smn do some nice aoe dmg.
all in all you get the benefits that come with every ranged class, like having better overview of the battle, but you are also not as immobile as your average blm. Though mp manage is a bit of an issue, but not as much as it used to anymore.

If you can be a GOOD summoner, you're amazing. The tough part is getting there. I like smn a lot more than blm, personally

Pros: It's not a DRG

Cons: It's not a MNK.

-shrugs-

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Gamer3427 --
That nicely quantifies the thing I like about healers as well, and gives me something to look for the appeal in. Awareness and control over the wider situation as opposed to focus. Thank you for summing it up so well.

Xoriam --
I like the cut of your jib.

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You're welcome, I encourage anyone who's willing to give the class a try rather than simply dismissing it because it doesn't have giant numbers associated with it, or because it's not exactly how fans think a "summoner" should be.....

Enchanted Hot Sauce
Magic Chicken Nuggets
Radioactive Cat Vomit

Need i say more?

Do a bit of research on the class if you are thinking of running around as one, it is one of the hardest classes to master.

Even among all of the DoT classes I've played, ranging from EQ1 to more modern games, NONE have puzzled me so much as SMN. Its a hard job to get good at, and unlike Dotters in other games it does not have a handful of reliable DD spells to fill in the gaps. Add in the fact there are no Tick-speed effects and not controlling Garuda properly can screw your DPS, it is a job that takes serious dedication to play as.

Hopefully the Expac goodies even it out, but so far it is a puzzling beast.

Summoner is a job that is just as capable as any other job, but it is often misunderstood. Even in the best raiding groups, there is an unfair stigma AGAINST summoner because, and this is true, black mage is simply easier to play well. That's not to say BLM is easy to master. I would say BLM and SMN are just as difficult to master and optimize. BUT! I think it is easier to be decent at BLM than it is to be decent at SMN. To optimize your damage, so much has to be timed. You have to have a great understanding of the fight. SMN is not a class many people play well. Therefore, when you do well and people take notice of it... they'll say something like, "Wow, you're one of the best summoners I've ever seen. You have to teach me how to play this class!" I won't say I'm the best summoner, but I do take pride in my understanding of the class, and my drive to optimize it in every fight. I take enjoyment in people telling me these things... not because it strokes my ego, but because it means I've done my part in chipping away at that stigma that says, "Summoners aren't as good as black mages." So, the more good summoners we have... the more people take notice... and the more accepting they are.

As far as why I enjoy the class? I love a class that requires me to keep track of so many things. SMN has a lot of cooldown timers to calculate, and a lot of micromanaging to do with your pet. Knowing what to use and when is pinnacle to edging out the crazy AoE burst that makes people think BLM is better in all situations. Furthermore, make use of your utility! Even if you aren't raiding, eye for an eye and virus are very useful. SMN can heal most dungeons in a pinch (not counting big pulls), and you can heal yourself up if you are in a situation where the healer isn't going to do it. The DoTs, by their very nature, are not burst... but, I enjoy being the quiet gentle strength that keeps the fight pushing on. Oh, and when you know death is inevitable? Recast your dots, and Contagion if you can, before you die... and you keep DPSing even when you're dead.

But, it's really not something I can sell you on. It's something you should try. Summoner is often considered the 'underdog' mage... and you will either love it or hate it. I personally don't like the playstyle of BLM, although I know an excellent BLM and an excellent SMN are equal in strength.

Pros: It is good for soloing
Cons: Everything else

There is not really a good way to sell smn. It is a dot based classed with extremely weak pets (the opposite of what a smn in the franchise is).

For a final fantasy game this is the worst smn version out there by a lot. Honestly they should of just called it warlock, and the summoners spirits or something.

If you have to be "sold" on it, then SMN probably isn't for you. With this class, you have to be good just to be decent, and excellent just to be good. If you -can- master it, you'll wreck the damage charts except for the most perfect MNKs and DRGs, plus you bring with you one of the best damage mitigation tools in the game, the SMN's version of Virus. It requires good timing (need to keep dots up at all times, but only recast right when they're about to run out), and babysitting skills (the fact that about 30% of your DPS is flying around in a easy to kill physical form with the brains and maneuverability of a flying brick).

This game can't have a add-on unlike others mmo.
With additional add-on that can help us manage dot timer/cooldown or what ever.

I wish summoner can be good like WoW Warlock, hard hitter ranged magic DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Words.

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*claps*

This is a big part of why people hate the class. They don't see the immediate results that they might with other classes, and as such, assume it's worse in terms of over all damage. In terms of quick damage, yes, BLM or a melee is better. In terms of over all damage though in a long fight, (Read: Most boss fights), those DoTs, particularly buffed ones, do a LOT of damage. It just isn't as easy to tell because there's not giant numbers popping up ever time they hit. Plus, each tic has it's own chance to crit, on EVERY DoT active, which means if you count that in as well, then you're looking at a significant increase in fights where they stay up all the time, (5 DoTs with potential crits each every 3 seconds)......

You should just go SCH right now.
As a SMN, you're a DoT Hero, you're one as a SCH but your main thing is healing.
You also get cute pets that don't look like nuggets and you get fast queue's.
That's about it. I'd probably like SMN more if it wasn't DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT'S
and more interaction with my summons.
I can play DoT lord as a SCH on my free time when I use Eos/Selene to slave for me hehe.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Snip.

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I think if we have an official parser and we can review overall damage given maybe many people will start to play Summoner again.

lol I regularly beat other BLM and even melee DPS when I run content except T13 farming, and even then other BLM rarely win. There is a great satisfaction in showing how good SMN is in the hands of the right player, just like Ryuko mentioned. The expansion is going to be good to us, trust me fellow SMN. As for the OP, sell you on SMN? Just play the class yourself.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

You should just go SCH right now.
As a SMN, you're a DoT Hero, you're one as a SCH but your main thing is healing.
You also get cute pets that don't look like nuggets and you get fast queue's.
That's about it. I'd probably like SMN more if it wasn't DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT'S
and more interaction with my summons.
I can play DoT lord as a SCH on my free time when I use Eos/Selene to slave for me hehe.

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THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is exactly why I play Scholar.

Lungs are collapsing.
Head is burning.
Esophagus is being crushed.
Bowels are releasing.
Stomach is grumbling.

BAAAAAAANE

I started out aa white mage but since I tried summoner I changed that to my main.
Its a challenging job to play and you need some micro skills in some fights. Like shiva ex, took me a long time to learn to dodge with egis.

Alot of people think you only spam ruin or ruin 2 but thats the bad summoners way of playing it.
I see so many summoners casting ruin ruin ruin when there are adds that got zero dots or some dots are running out.

You need to plan ahead sometimes. "Okay shiva will do this or that attack in a few seconds, i should cast a new bio 2 now so it doesnt run out"


To me it is a challenging class to play and the glowing mog book is pretty for glamour so if you fancy that you should try summoner

I once play as SMN, but everything change since SCH job attacks...

If your looking for a job that is actually a Summoner, or even in the spirit of, the Final Fantasy series pick another job sadly. If you think you might like a DoT class much like World of Warcraft's Warlcok then maybe give it a try. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of having summons since your damage mainly comes from your spells and they die so quickly. Plus you only use 2 of the 3. One for dungeons and the other for solo leveling.

Some people say it is a difficult job but I personally find it easy to manage the DotS, so I guess it depends on what your used to. The hardest part is knowing the fights/be quick on your feet so you can layer on DoTs between boss Aoe attacks, since they take awhile to channel. Other jobs have to do this too though so it isn't exclusively a summoner thing.

I personally was disappointed in the job and how far away it went from the feel of the Final Fantasy series Summoners. I'll probably be leveling/gearing another job slowly to go along with it and might eventually leave it behind.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

I think if we have an official parser and we can review overall damage given maybe many people will start to play Summoner again.

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I just love your signature! :3

I can't come up with a good eloquent response, so lemme just say you guys rock for the feedback. I know now at least I'm gonna roll on to 60 with this book and my funky neon pals and see how it pans out. Never played Warlock in WoW so I haven't got that prior experience with DoT-casters, and that's really been the biggest hump, but all of you have been summing up the pros and cons quite well.

Regarding BLM: I leveled it to 50 on an alt, and though it felt good then, I never want to level it again. I hate the need to keep feet planted while soloing. White Mage is also a pain like that, but White Mage gets insta-queues so you never have to actually solo. Summoner edges it out merely for the fact that I can just lay on DoTs then run my happy little ass around flicking Ruin IIs (and if I'm feeling saucy, dive in for a Miasma II) until I need to again.

If you want a job that feel like what's used to be summoner in the previous Final Fantasy (a job heavily focus on managing his pets), don't. You'll be disappointed. Pets are just an add DPS, not a real thing.

If you want a job based on DoT, who will perform quite well if you're good at it, then it might be for you.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

most important thing to know about smn is that it is nothing like you would imagine it from previous FF titles. It's main focus is on keeping up dots and using filler moves and your aetherflow charges in between to maximize your dps. the summon itself is just another "dot" with some added skills, which you most of the time use to simple increase your dps. though with dreadwyrm stance coming in heavensward it seems to change a bit, since it's adding a "burst phase" to the job once you used up your aetherflow. still need to see how it works. also smn do some nice aoe dmg.
all in all you get the benefits that come with every ranged class, like having better overview of the battle, but you are also not as immobile as your average blm. Though mp manage is a bit of an issue, but not as much as it used to anymore.

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Unless your spamming Ruin & Ruin II non-stop I don't find many MP issues. Maybe I'm missing something?

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Originally Posted by Owatatsumi

Unless your spamming Ruin & Ruin II non-stop I don't find many MP issues. Maybe missing something?

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SMN has MP issues in prolonged fights, such as current raid tiers. Outside of that, nothing really lives long enough to matter.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

The fact that 90% of summoners ruin everything

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Dat pun though

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Originally Posted by Zaft

SMN has MP issues in prolonged fights, such as current raid tiers. Outside of that, nothing really lives long enough to matter.

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I've only every had MP issues when I have to spend half the fight reviving the other parties in the Alliance. And even then, I've never been to the point that I needed a potion to restore MP, just to where I couldn't use another revive......

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

I've only every had MP issues when I have to spend half the fight reviving the other parties in the Alliance. And even then, I've never been to the point that I needed a potion to restore MP, just to where I couldn't use another revive......

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Those fights don't last more than five or so minutes. Unless you're using energy drain which makes your DPS nosedive.