Melee in PvP

I haven't been able to play Melee much in PvP but I've always seen NIN overpowered compared to MNK and DRG, what is the point of view of veteran melee players toward this? What is the advantage of being DRG or MNK rather than NIN?

I mean, NIN has so many options and so many useful skills and traits.

NIN advantages:
-Vulnerability Down attack
-Powerful Ranged Attacks
-Shukuchi
-Movement Speed+
-Reduced damage taken from falling
-Assassinate
-Hide
- ???

Ninja is a better version of monk, it trades fetter ward for supreme utility and buffs the damage of everyone, especially tanks

Dragoon is the ultimate burst class and buffs the damage of bards, it cannot be peeled during the burst unlike the ninja

NIN is sneaky and DRG is a killing machine.
I have played both roles in pvp and switch between them alot .. I tend to kill more as DRG than as NIN.

DRG:-

-Impulse Rush: Increases critical hit rate by 20% and nullifies all weaponskill direction
.deals great damage if used with other buffs

-Weapon Throw: 20% chance of inflicting Heavy when dealt from behind Duration: 6s
.for hunting low hp running away from you

-Skewer: Reduces target's INT by 20% .... use it mostly on casters with fever or when attempting to murder a healer

-Jumps can kill someone with 25% - 30% ish HP if well buffed.

-2 stuns skills = 2 good opportuinities for well timed melee LB.

-Mercy Stroke: cross class from War is useful too.

-Do not understmate ( backflip ) - can save you from alot of tricky situations :X


I never played Monk so i can't give an opinion on that, but i know a good Monk player that i see him running with battle high frequently his name is ( Space Impact )

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-Weapon Throw: 20% chance of inflicting Heavy when dealt from behind Duration: 6s

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1: Thats not what the 20% (and 40% when upgraded) means, its a 100% chance to inflict a 20% or 40% heavy, you also forgot that it also removes sprint from the target

2: Ninjas also have that skill

edit: 3: i just noticed you got that weapon throw information from my pvp tool, i'll update the sheet to give correct information on that now >_>

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

1: Thats not what the 20% (and 40% when upgraded) means, its a 100% chance to inflict a 20% or 40% heavy, you also forgot that it also removes sprint from the target

2: Ninjas also have that skill

edit: 3: i just noticed you got that weapon throw information from my pvp tool, i'll update the sheet to give correct information on that now >_>

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Yep XD

Mah bad i couldn't include the rest of info cuz of the word limitation allowed in the reply

I can't really judge since all the NIN i see doing 10+ kills in slaughter 72 are just camping people lol.

I pretty much exclusively use DRG in PvP and I typically perform extremely well for being a melee. DRG has a ton of instant attacks which equates to amazing burst:

Dragonfire Dive, Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Impulse Rush, Skewer, Leg sweep, Mercy Stroke (if under 20% HP)

Dragoon also has Invigorate for a "free" sprint, I have Invigorate and Enliven put into macros to cast right after sprint, so I have a lot of opportunities to have sprint up (those PvP feathers help with this too but aren't as flexible since they only restore 300 TP).

Since in PvP the name of the game is burst (kills give you points and you want to kill people before a healer can save them) - DRG's perform extremely well as they can typically pick a target and tear them up if all of their CD's are up.

Sooo sprint + restore TP + fetter ward + heavy thrust + blood for blood + rapid flurry of instant attacks = a bad day for some poor sap.

On average in a 72 man slaughter I run 3-6 kills and 80k damage dealt, but I've pulled out some games with 10 or more kills and many times I've pumped out more than 100k damage. What DRG really brings to the table in slaughter is fetter ward + spineshatter dive + LB - you are almost guaranteed to get your LB off on your target and that really helps to bring down those pesky mages with battle high to get those yummy bonus points.

Dragoon and ninja both are even with monks a very distance 3rd. It's gotten to the point when I see a monk in pvp it's safe to say they are new and have no clue what they are doing. Pre slaughter there where a few good pvp monks but haven't seen any since.

Most of the MNKs went NIN on Primal at least. MNKs were a bit more useful in Secure.

I think the 3 classes will fair the same if you just know how to melee well in PvP.

The traited Invigorate isn't that much of an advantage. It increases TP returned true, but with so much of your burst damage coming from oGCD attacks, you won't really ever need more than the +300 TP for a burst rotation(1 > 2 > 3 GCD combo, weaving oGCDs). I don't often get TP starved with MNK, at least not much more than DRG.

Also I'm big on Fists of Wind, only change to Fire for static objects like drones/nodes or when 1vs1.

Haven't tried NIN in PVP yet, but I share the sentiment of wasted utility potential if camping

One llm Punch. Nothing more satisfying than stealing SCH's Aetherflow stacks

Monk in my experience doesn't perform too well in Slaughter but I've had some nice matches with it in Secure. One Ilm Punch is great harass versus a scholar (removes all stacks of aether flow if you're lucky) and if you're in a pinch you can chain silence with Perfect Balance>>Arm of the Destroyer.

@OP ninja is stronk but dragoon has a lot of burst like other people said. And for those occasional 1v1 situations Dragoon is a bit more tanky with Keen Flurry / bigger vitality pool / bloodbath / Life Surge

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

1: Thats not what the 20% (and 40% when upgraded) means, its a 100% chance to inflict a 20% or 40% heavy, you also forgot that it also removes sprint from the target

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Oh, shit. Really? <.<

Lol, I've been doing that wrong. XD Now I feel like a noob.

Good to know.

Monk: need to much time for all buffs and have to move to the side/behind.
Dragen: have his 3 jump's, with good gear and fullbuffed, take it 60%+ of my life.
Ninja have no rules, only to hold you in his range and can use his buffs instan.
Warri: with good gear and buffed can a warri hit you with 1,2k dmg, need a bit longer time but have ~7k life.

Paladin: delete this shit.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Monk: need to much time for all buffs and have to move to the side/behind.
Dragen: have his 3 jump's, with good gear and fullbuffed, take it 60%+ of my life.
Ninja have no rules, only to hold you in his range and can use his buffs instan.
Warri: with good gear and buffed can a warri hit you with 1,2k dmg, need a bit longer time but have ~7k life.

Paladin: delete this shit.

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Paladins kick out pretty amazing damage and have huge utility >_>

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Paladins kick out pretty amazing damage and have huge utility >_>

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Maybe I misunderstood, but I think that was the point of what you quoted. Like, "Delete the hell out of this irritating class!" or something.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Monk: need to much time for all buffs and have to move to the side/behind.
Dragen: have his 3 jump's, with good gear and fullbuffed, take it 60%+ of my life.
Ninja have no rules, only to hold you in his range and can use his buffs instan.
Warri: with good gear and buffed can a warri hit you with 1,2k dmg, need a bit longer time but have ~7k life.

Paladin: delete this shit.

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Someone mentioned paladin ._."?

http://i.imgur.com/PxCYuw6.jpg

I'd say hold on tight for heavensward. Monk is gonna get some love that will surely make them more potent in pvp. Elixir drive for instance.

Pffft, Ninja op? Man I have no idea what your talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5-54xwNY0 0:20 secs ahead

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Pffft, Ninja op? Man I have no idea what your talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5-54xwNY0 0:20 secs ahead

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3 ninjas and a black mage will generally do that to people who stay mounted even after you know they were there :P

I don't know who made that video, but how does that need a fix? I mean ganking a legitimate strategy, and one of the few strategies available in Slaughter (the only other being timed caster AoEs, which takes like 2 brain cells lol). Just communicate with your alliance, tell everyone that there are ppl at OP so don't leave single file. They are sacrificing like 4 people to kill a small trickle of people btw, so there is a tradeoff. I mean if it's such a broken thing to do then do it for your team >.>

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

I don't know who made that video, but how does that need a fix? I mean ganking a legitimate strategy, and one of the few strategies available in Slaughter (the only other being timed caster AoEs, which takes like 2 brain cells lol). Just communicate with your alliance, tell everyone that there are ppl at OP so don't leave single file. They are sacrificing like 4 people to kill a small trickle of people btw, so there is a tradeoff. I mean if it's such a broken thing to do then do it for your team >.>

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Pretty much this. Problem is though that lots of times you can tell your alliance there are NINs camping the pads and need help and likely nobody leaves the mid to come help/ respawning players mindlessly run back to mid anyway instead of waiting... So I can understand why some people think this is "broken."

I don't think NIN's camping pads is that hard to deal with. If respawning, travel with one or two others when possible, in a 72 man game it's not that long of a wait for someone else to respawn and if it is and no one's dying in your alliance they're doing pretty damn good. Last time I saw this I was on SCH, and someone further back got jumped by a NIN as I was about to hit the jump pad. Dismounted, healed them and removed their debuffs super fast, and my party member went from trying to escape to us going on the offense against the NIN. They had to use a jump pad to escape to Manors, while we returned to the real battle up at mid. So the NIN in the enemy team wasted all that time waiting for a kill, didn't get one, had to jump to the middle of nowhere to escape, and then had to spend time traveling back to one of the jump pad locations. So that's at least a minute they were earning 0 points for their team. Also a NIN camping spawns is going to earn 0 extra points for getting kills on people with battle high because those people are almost always up at mid.

As I Monk I find it very hard to escape anything. I have to have all my defensive CDs ready and even then I die most of the time people chase me. When I'm alone that is; having backup is another story.
Even with 4600(ish)HP + sprint + feather ward + fists of earth + ready to purify + healing ready.

By escape I mean, getting away from chasers to somewhere safe.

I tried this today. Was gonna pull a paladin out of Mael camp alone during Secure. Unfortunately a Bard showed up right as I entered their op. Axe kicked them then used feather ward + sprint. They kept range dps me even after sprint wore. used Fists of wind, as sprint wore, to get further away. Used 1 heal. Sprint again. Tons of debuff, used purify. Still, as sprint vore off they were still dpsing me from afar. Used last heal. Died just as 2nd sprint vore off.

Yeah, monks shouldn't be master escapers, but as you see I kinda used everything I got and it still meant nothing (my team didn't even get their camp :P).

Camping doesn't help much your alliance. It's just a selfish way to farm points for the kill achievement.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Camping doesn't help much your alliance. It's just a selfish way to farm points for the kill achievement.

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for melee? its better than feed enemy in mid

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Originally Posted by Srab

for melee? its better than feed enemy in mid

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I've seen you and other melee do quite fine in Mid before, beside that, generally I hate seeing many people playing melee in 72s anyway, people should learn using other classes rather than just ALWAYS go what they want. Anyone can play any class there just fine.

Sometimes it happen that you do lots of kills camping others, but then it happen that you die with fever on and you give all those points back, maybe in a bad situation too.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

I've seen you and other melee do quite fine in Mid before, beside that, generally I hate seeing many people playing melee in 72s anyway, people should learn using other classes rather than just ALWAYS go what they want. Anyone can play any class there just fine.

Sometimes it happen that you do lots of kills camping others, but then it happen that you die with fever on and you give all those points back, maybe in a bad situation too.

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Camping isn't even about scoring easy kills for points. It's more about logistics. If a single camper can manage to keep 5-6 enemy players busy for a few minutes, then that's a few minutes where their team in mid is lacking players compared to the other factions, granting an advantage to your (and the third, by coincidence) GC. Heck, this is doubly true if the camper manages to keep a healer busy for a few minutes. The enemy having less players/healers in mid, where the bulk of all forces meet in Slaughter, is a huge boon. In that way, even if a camper earns (for their team) and feeds (to the camped team) an even number of points, the distraction they served as is still beneficial, allowing easier point gain in mid.

Beyond that, I'm also slightly disturbed that you seem to feel that people shouldn't play what they want to play if it's more beneficial to the team that they play something else. It is a game fault, not a player one, that melee are at such risk and perceived disadvantage in Slaughter. This is not a balance problem caused by the player and it is certainly not something the player should feel forced to take one for the team to fix. Besides, melee have their place in Slaughter. They are far from useless, even in groups that are composed entirely of them.

Being Flexible > camping shit because you THINK your class ain't got a role in your party up in mid.
I saw Melee being decent up Mid, certainly you don't want 6 melees in a 72 slaughter, but you also don't want 6 healers or 6 tanks, do you? It's a TEAM WORK game, Camping is FAR from teamwork.

Beside that, you can't actually keep a smart healer (since it's the only target worth keeping "busy" as you said from mid) away from the battle field, you would hold me for a second for example, and I am certainly not the smartest healer I know. Keeping a healer away from mid? haha you must have really bad healers over there.

You must be one of those players who don't change to healer/ranged/whatever even when your GC need it.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Being Flexible > camping shit because you THINK your class ain't got a role in your party up in mid.
I saw Melee being decent up Mid, certainly you don't want 6 melees in a 72 slaughter, but you also don't want 6 healers or 6 tanks, do you? It's a TEAM WORK game, Camping is FAR from teamwork.

Beside that, you can't actually keep a smart healer (since it's the only target worth keeping "busy" as you said from mid) away from the battle field, you would hold me for a second for example, and I am certainly not the smartest healer I know. Keeping a healer away from mid? haha you must have really bad healers over there.

You must be one of those players who don't change to healer/ranged/whatever even when your GC need it.

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1 or 2 melee camping is fine but more than 2 not good for team

Regarding Frontlines specifically, I will agree that Ninja is much better than the other traditional melee DPS Monk and Dragoon. Note that it's possible to classify Paladins and Warriors under the "melee DPS" category as well, and actually I would say that they are better than Ninjas due to their disruption abilities and let's not forget the almighty Holmgang.

I also wouldn't say that this holds true for Wolves' Den. Monk and Dragoon have important abilities that can really turn the tide in Wolves' Den. In Frontlines, if you blow all your cooldowns and kill someone, even if it's a Healer, it doesn't matter much because there's the whole rest of the army there ready to stop what they're doing and take their revenge on you (easy since you're in melee range anyway). In Wolves' Den, if you've killed the Healer, there's like a 99% chance you've just won the match.

To answer your question specifically, I am playing mostly Monk in PvE, but I do not like to play it in Frontlines at all.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Being Flexible > camping shit because you THINK your class ain't got a role in your party up in mid.
I saw Melee being decent up Mid, certainly you don't want 6 melees in a 72 slaughter, but you also don't want 6 healers or 6 tanks, do you? It's a TEAM WORK game, Camping is FAR from teamwork.

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Camping is teamwork, actually, for the very reasons I outlined. It aids your team by serving as a distraction. If I'm a single DPS holding up a single other enemy DPS, then my net cost:benefit is 1:1. If I manage to even hold two dps alone, then my net cost:benefit is 1:2. A simple cost:benefit analysis shows that camping can be extremely beneficial, as it is a great allocation of resources from a cost:benefit perspective. If you take into account the overall cost:benefit:time ratios, you can even determine how many DPS you'll need to keep distracted over what period of time to make the duration of time you're spending camping their base worth it.

Also note that, if you're camping because you think your class is useless in mid, then you're doing it wrong. I don't think my class is useless in mid. I do very well in mid, often ending up as one of the top 5 melee DPS of any match in each of the categories of damage, kill count, and (least amount of) deaths. Me thinking I don't do well in mid has nothing to do with it. Camping is simply beneficial very often. It's like setting up an ambush to reinforcements - a mainstay of war tactics.

Of course there are times where camping is not beneficial, as well. At those times, you'll find me in mid.

As you implied, flexibility is key. And staying in mid regardless of anything is the very opposite of flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Beside that, you can't actually keep a smart healer (since it's the only target worth keeping "busy" as you said from mid) away from the battle field, you would hold me for a second for example, and I am certainly not the smartest healer I know. Keeping a healer away from mid? haha you must have really bad healers over there.

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Whether it is because they are bad or otherwise, I have held many healers at their base for numerous minutes at a time. At the worst of times, all I can do is slow them down with stuns and roots. But even so, as healers are so precious in PvP, who knows how many enemy deaths I indirectly aided in by having slowed down a single healer for even so short a time.

Regardless of the reasons or duration, keeping healers away from mid is greatly beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

You must be one of those players who don't change to healer/ranged/whatever even when your GC need it.

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Damn straight. I will play what I like, and I will excel at it even if I find myself in a disadvantage. I will be where I am most useful to my team, but I will do so on my own standards. After all, I'm flexible, which even you admitted is of high importance to winning PvP.

You should try it sometime. It's fun.

Chasing enemy factions back to their jumpers after Allagan systems at the map corners and staying for an extra kill or two is one thing; but if you're jumper camping exclusively you're not performing to your fullest potential.

I'd rather have my Ninja friendlies dropping Dotons around the center node/drone in the Heliodrome, or on the panels adjacent to the other GCs. Doton and Shadowflare -- nevermind the dps potencies -- consider the human-factor, these create obstacles that dissuade players from trying to push onto your GC. That's just one example of utility I don't see enough from nin.

I'm not trying to convince yall to do otherwise since it's your preference, but camping can't be sold as some "tactical" (/airquotes emote) strategy or secret to success. Doing what you enjoy is one thing, but matches are won and loss up top. This crap was doubly irritating when Ninja was first released and the WoW-Rogue inspired lolnins started stalking enemy flags with /hide. Cool story bro but unless they leave or you try to make something happen, you're no different than an AFK bot.

Jumper camping is bush-league. People do it because they can't handle the heat up top, or just don't care enough about getting the win. whew

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Originally Posted by Vandril

Camping is teamwork, actually, for the very reasons I outlined. It aids your team by serving as a distraction.

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While this is true, it's also true that I don't need to stay at their OP to be doing this. I once had nearly an entire party running around looking for me, that was beautiful, but they were doing so with me hidden, I went up to mid and let them continue running around spamming Miasma trying to find me. What did I do when I was at mid on their side? Instantly locate someone with Battle High/Fever, Trick Attack > Stun > Limit Break and killed them instantly. Follow that up with a Ill Wind (which I swear I never see any other Ninjas using...) and Sprint and I got out safely. One third of their team was looking for me at their OP, another third was Silenced and could do nothing, and I'd just killed someone with Battle Fever. I may have been able to farm kills better had I stayed at their OP, but I think going to mid contributed far more to my team than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Monk: need to much time for all buffs and have to move to the side/behind.
Dragen: have his 3 jump's, with good gear and fullbuffed, take it 60%+ of my life.
Ninja have no rules, only to hold you in his range and can use his buffs instan.
Warri: with good gear and buffed can a warri hit you with 1,2k dmg, need a bit longer time but have ~7k life.

Paladin: delete this shit.

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Delete yer face!

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Originally Posted by Nalien

While this is true, it's also true that I don't need to stay at their OP to be doing this. I once had nearly an entire party running around looking for me, that was beautiful, but they were doing so with me hidden, I went up to mid and let them continue running around spamming Miasma trying to find me. What did I do when I was at mid on their side? Instantly locate someone with Battle High/Fever, Trick Attack > Stun > Limit Break and killed them instantly. Follow that up with a Ill Wind (which I swear I never see any other Ninjas using...) and Sprint and I got out safely. One third of their team was looking for me at their OP, another third was Silenced and could do nothing, and I'd just killed someone with Battle Fever. I may have been able to farm kills better had I stayed at their OP, but I think going to mid contributed far more to my team than anything else.

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Now that's the kind of strategy I'm talking about. :D

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the point in doing such things. It's hilarious watching people run around like chickens without heads while spamming AoEs to find me, knowing they'll never find me because I've already left for where I'll be more useful atm.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I'm not trying to convince yall to do otherwise since it's your preference, but camping can't be sold as some "tactical" (/airquotes emote) strategy or secret to success. Doing what you enjoy is one thing, but matches are won and loss up top. This crap was doubly irritating when Ninja was first released and the WoW-Rogue inspired lolnins started stalking enemy flags with /hide. Cool story bro but unless they leave or you try to make something happen, you're no different than an AFK bot.

Jumper camping is bush-league. People do it because they can't handle the heat up top, or just don't care enough about getting the win. whew

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Now, see, this is just wrong. A tactical play is exactly what camping is - when done right. Sure, games are won and lost in mid. And yes, many campers are people who can't "handle the heat" in mid. But no, that does not mean camping is not extremely useful and it does not mean all campers are doing it for that reason. Cutting off reinforcements with a smaller force to buy time is a crucial strategy in nearly every war/wargame in existence. You can claim that it's not legitimate strategy, but it is.

Of course, there are certainly other things a camper could be doing rather than camping. But the difference in awareness of a PvPer and a good PvPer is the difference in knowing to do only one thing and knowing how to do what you need to do when you need to do it. There are times when camping is not beneficial. There are also times when it is extremely beneficial.

The fact is that you're holding NAB players there, and if you die with high/fever it's a disaster for your GC.
Also you letting your party fight without you up there in mid.

There is absolutely NO way any camper can kill me I simply skip them even 2/3 at a time when it happens, but I understand there are a lot of unexperienced players, that's what you aim for.

Beside I still don't know what's so funny about attacking someone hoping he is an unaware/unexperienced player.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

The fact is that you're holding NAB players there, and if you die with high/fever it's a disaster for your GC.
Also you letting your party fight without you up there in mid.

There is absolutely NO way any camper can kill me I simply skip them even 2/3 at a time when it happens, but I understand there are a lot of unexperienced players, that's what you aim for.

Beside I still don't know what's so funny about attacking someone hoping he is an unaware/unexperienced player.

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If I only manage to hold "NAB players", then a good 90% of the enemies I see in Frontlines are that type of player. The only time my enemies escape my camping is when they get too many reinforcements or are a healer. And even then, I can generally keep them occupied and out of mid for at least 2 full minutes. Considering the short time limit slaughter has, 2 minutes is a long time.

But this isn't really about me. I'm talking the merits of camping, not how good or bad I am at it.

Camping is not a suicide run. There is no reason campers have to die at all. Not with the easy escape mechanism sitting right near your camping spot, and especially not as a Ninja.

You should never die while holding the kill buffs while camping. If you have a kill buff, camping becomes a disadvantaged strategy, and you must retreat to middle where the buff can be put to better use. That's how you're supposed to do it. That's an example of being adaptable, as I mentioned previously.

I reiterate: the point of camping is to distract. It's a matter of logistics. And a simple cost:benefit analysis proves that it can be, very often, extremely beneficial to your team. That is a fact.

Hide is a little overpowered. Once you get battle high your mark on the map should not go away just because you go into hide.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Hide is a little overpowered. Once you get battle high your mark on the map should not go away just because you go into hide.

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Woah, wait a second. That actually happens? <.<

I...honestly never knew this. I just thought people never thought to look at their minimap. >.>

And the worst part of this post? I'm not even kidding. -_-'

Anyway, to be as completely unbiased as it's possible to be as a Ninja talking about whether or not something regarding Ninja is overpowered, I have to admit that I don't feel it's that big a deal. It's exceptionally unlikely that a NIN will be able to use Hide again once they enter their first combat in a Slaughter (unless they die). To kill enough people to gain the buff and then re-enter hide... That Ninja would need to avoid combat completely for minutes just to enter Hide. You can't use Hide in combat, and combat in PvP takes forever to drop if even a single target that either hit the Ninja or got hit by the Ninja is not dead. For those minutes, they can do nothing if they wish to try to use Hide.

Actually, I'm not exactly sure what the PvP combat-drop requirements are. I've not yet been able to tell whether it's distance between previously hit/"hit by" targets or if it's just time passed since last combat action taken. Either way, though, the fact remains that Hide is difficult to use in Slaughter...

...unless you're camping. Then, it would be rather overpowered, huh? *ponders for a moment* Yet it would still be more beneficial for the team if any camping Ninja with a kill buff would go back to mid. People are more likely to pursue the Ninja through the jumpers without hesitation if the Ninja has these buffs, making the Ninja's escape plan more difficult to pull off. Once in mid, what I typed above about Hide being difficult to use due to combat drop mechanics in PvP would again be true.

Still, I can understand the concern that being able to Hide during the buff to remove the minimap marker might be a little overpowered in regards to camping.